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InvisibleRavus
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This is a disgrace! says conversative assholes
    #4357073 - 06/30/05 10:56 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Spain 3rd Nation to Legalize Gay Marriage
Jun 30, 9:18 PM (ET)
By MAR ROMAN

MADRID, Spain (AP) - Spain became the third country to legalize gay marriage Thursday in a parliament vote that left gay activists blowing kisses to lawmakers and the powerful Catholic Church issuing veiled calls for defiance.

The new law increases the chances of happiness for "our neighbors, our work colleagues, our friends, our relatives," said Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero.

The 350-seat Congress of Deputies, by a vote of 187-147 with four abstentions, approved the measure to give homosexual couples the same rights as heterosexual ones, including the right to adopt children.

After the tally was announced, activists watching from the spectator section of the ornate chamber cried, cheered, hugged each other, waved to lawmakers and blew them kisses.

"This is a disgrace," shouted several members of the conservative opposition Popular Party, which vehemently opposed the bill. Those in favor stood and clapped. ( :smile: Someone should've blown these conservatives a big fuck you in retaliation. The only disgrace here is their opposition to equality.)

Outside the stately 19th-century chamber where other chapters of Spanish history have been written, activists jumped for joy and waved rainbow flags symbolizing the international gay rights movement.

"It is a historic day for the world's homosexuals. We have been fighting for many years," said Beatriz Gimeno, a longtime leader of the gay rights movement in Spain. "Now comes the hardest part, which is changing society's mentality." She blinked back tears as she hugged her partner, Boti Garcia.

Oscar-winning Spanish film director Pedro Almodovar, who is gay, said 21st century families don't have to reflect the traditional Catholic model.

"I don't like marriage. I am not going to get married," he said. "But it is important for this to be called marriage so people know that it is the same thing for everyone."

The Roman Catholic Church, which held much sway over the government just a generation ago when Gen. Francisco Franco was in power, was left smarting from the vote.

"Marriage, understood as the union of a man and a woman, is no longer provided for in our laws," the Spanish Bishops Conference said after the vote, referring both to the gay marriage law and a bill passed Wednesday making it easier for Spaniards to divorce.

"It is necessary to oppose these unfair laws through all legitimate means," a conference statement said, alluding to its hint last month that town hall officials who oppose gay marriage should refuse to preside over such ceremonies.

Some 80 percent of Spaniards consider themselves Catholic. However, polls say nearly half the country's Catholics rarely go to Mass, and a third say they are simply not religious.

The bill, which became law immediately, says: "Matrimony shall have the same requirements and effects regardless of whether the persons involved are of the same or different sex."

Gay couples can get married as soon as the law is published in the official government registry - as early as Friday or within two weeks at the latest, parliament's press office said.

The Netherlands and Belgium are the only other two countries that recognize gay marriage nationwide. The Netherlands lets gays adopt children. Belgium is considering the adoption issue.

Canada's House of Commons passed legislation Tuesday that would legalize gay marriage by the end of July as long as the Senate also passes the bill, which it is expected to do.

In the United States, Massachusetts is the only state to recognize gay marriage. Vermont and Connecticut have approved same-sex civil unions. ( :thumbup: As allows, New England is the most enlightened area in the U.S. It's surprising California hasn't followed suit yet.)

In debate before the vote, Zapatero said the dry language of the Spanish reform masks "an immense change in the lives of thousands of citizens. We are not legislating, ladies and gentlemen, for remote, unknown people. We are expanding opportunities for the happiness of our neighbors, our work colleagues, our friends, our relatives."

Zapatero lacks a majority in the chamber but got more than enough help from small regional-based parties that tend to be his allies.

Popular Party leader Mariano Rajoy said Zapatero has deeply divided Spain and should have sought a consensus in parliament that recognized same-sex unions but didn't call them marriages. Rajoy said if the vast majority of countries don't accept gay marriage, there must be a reason.

"I think the prime minister has committed a grave act of irresponsibility," Rajoy said, adding that his party is considering challenging the law before the Constitutional Court, Spain's highest tribunal.

The gay marriage bill was the boldest and most divisive initiative of the liberal social agenda Zapatero has embarked on since taking office in April 2004.

Under the divorce law reform, couples can end their marriage without a mandatory separation period or having to state a reason for the split-up, as required under the old legislation. Zapatero also pushed through legislation allowing stem-cell research and wants to loosen Spain's restrictive abortion law.

In its first display of anti-government activism in 20 years, the Catholic Church endorsed a June 18 rally in which hundreds of thousands of people marched through Madrid to oppose the same-sex marriage bill.

Still, polls suggest Spaniards support gay marriage. A May survey by pollster Instituto Opina said 62 percent of Spaniards support the government's action on gay marriage, and 30 percent oppose it. But surveys also show Spaniards about evenly split over whether gay couples should be allowed to adopt children.
http://apnews.myway.com//article/20050701/D8B29JQO0.html

What really seems odd to me on these forums is that many of the people who oppose gay marriage are those who support ending the criminalization of victimless crimes- yet gay marriage is completely harmless. It's the union of two loving people who want to be together, just like that of heterosexual marriage. There are no victims, so should we assume that the entire basis of such strong opposition is discrimination?

And the debate over terminology is useless. This is a battle for equality, not semantics. The people who oppose gay marriage rarely oppose it simply because it's called marriage- there always seems to be a deeper dislike towards homosexuals. Simply another example of emotion clouding logic and freedom.

Good job Spain; the Socialist party may be a bunch of Socialists, but I support them in this decision.


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: This is a disgrace! says conversative assholes [Re: Ravus]
    #4357236 - 06/30/05 11:39 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, other countries have bigoted morons. America by no means has the lock on that demographic. We just have enough of them that we can't even protect our own citizens from discrimination or manage to afford them equal rights.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: This is a disgrace! says conversative assholes [Re: unbeliever]
    #4357306 - 07/01/05 12:02 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Neither can most of the world. Even the most liberal countries are not a utopia for equal rights and freedom, after all.

I can only imagine what the Americans' response would be if gay marriage was legalized here. There'd be rioting all over the South.


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: This is a disgrace! says conversative assholes [Re: Ravus]
    #4357348 - 07/01/05 12:14 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Neither can most of the world. Even the most liberal countries are not a utopia for equal rights and freedom, after all.

I can only imagine what the Americans' response would be if gay marriage was legalized here. There'd be rioting all over the South.




Good. I've love to see them arrested for rioting. It'd be delicious irony that they would protest something that hurt no one by destroying their own communities. Marvelous!


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: This is a disgrace! says conversative assholes [Re: unbeliever]
    #4357575 - 07/01/05 01:28 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Letting gay people say that they are married isn't a big deal. Making it law that gay people get the same deductions and benefits that families do is another fiscal question altogether.

Many of the deductions and benefits that exist from both the government and private businesses are built into the system assuming that married men and women are going to have children. Children are very expensive.

A company may cover the health care of your wife and children, must they also have to cover the health care of a perfectly able gay lover who could make his own way?

I think a lot of this fight is a fight of money. It sounds a lot better when they are talking about equality. Should gay people be allowed to call themselves married? I think so. Should gay people be granted a monetary advantage for being gay? I am not so sure bout that.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: This is a disgrace! says conversative assholes [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4357659 - 07/01/05 01:47 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I agree that it may need to be modified depending on the situation, but the issue isn't simply money; it's the entire concept of gay marriage. Do you think the Bush administration was purely about the money when they tried to add a Constitutional amendment banning gay marriage?


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: This is a disgrace! says conversative assholes [Re: Ravus]
    #4357946 - 07/01/05 03:01 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

The Bush administration is against gay marriage, and so was the Kerry administration.

It isn't hard for me to understand why people are dedicated and passionate about marriage. Marriage was probably the very first social contract in all of humanity. It was the first contract, or the first law upon which everything else was built. It is at the foundation of our entire civilization.

We live in an age of declining morals and standards. Each new "big thang" tries to push the envelope further and further. The nuclear family has taken a big hit. Divorce rates have skyrocketed and some people don't even bother to get married anymore and just breed out of wedlock. Broken families impose a huge social cost on everyone.

In this era, it is perfectly understandable that some would come forward to passionately "defend marriage". We are talking about a tradition that is thousands of years old, a tradition that dates back to the very core of humanity. Do you honestly think that such traditions would ever dissapear overnight without question? Do you think that some activist judge can just make a new law and it will go down without a fight?

How naive is it for anyone to expect to change these laws at a happenstance, and how hateful is it for them to label anyone that disagree with their "enlightened" approach to be a repressive bigot?

I can see why these people do what they do, and I can understand why they fight. I don't agree with them. As far as I care, you can marry your dog if you want to. Just don't ask for any extra benefits from my piece of the pie. If someone wants to have a couple wives, have at it.

As Dick Cheney says, freedom means freedom for everyone.


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: This is a disgrace! says conversative assholes [Re: Ravus]
    #4357950 - 07/01/05 03:02 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

If you don't want a gay couple to have the same rights simply because they can't create a wholly new life form based on each of their DNA then you need to absolve all the marriages of couples who adopt, have kids from different parents, and used donated sperm or eggs.

Otherwise it's the same bullshit bigotry, no matter how you dress it up.


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: This is a disgrace! says conversative assholes [Re: unbeliever]
    #4357997 - 07/01/05 03:16 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

It is costlier than ever to have and raise a family. A lot of the financial benefits in both the public and private sector are set in place to help offset or ease those costs.

If we lets gays marry, we need to take a long look at what benefits we give and why we give them. That is all that I am saying.

Before I got married I always had roommates of the same sex. It was mainly to cut costs. If I could have gotten extra money or benefits (especially from the government) by claiming to have slept with those men simply by filling out a form I probably would have done it. Hell, give me $1,000 back then and I would have signed a paper saying that I was an Alien who came to earth to worship Jane Fonda's toes. It doesn't fucking matter when it is all about the money.

Gays make more money than any other demographic. You can also afford to pay them more because you don't have to pay the benefits for a wife and family. Just health care for a family of four will cost you $10,000 - $15,000 a year.

When you are talking about "rights", like the right to call yourself married, the argument is mostly semantics. Gay people can will their assets and give the other person power of attorney. They can legally do everything they want but call themselves married. And get this, they still call themselves married anyway. When I got married, I gave an oath to my wife before my God. I never even thought of the state as sanctioning my marriage.


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: This is a disgrace! says conversative assholes [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4358062 - 07/01/05 03:32 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

JesusChrist said:
It is costlier than ever to have and raise a family. A lot of the financial benefits in both the public and private sector are set in place to help offset or ease those costs.

If we lets gays marry, we need to take a long look at what benefits we give and why we give them. That is all that I am saying.

Before I got married I always had roommates of the same sex. It was mainly to cut costs. If I could have gotten extra money or benefits (especially from the government) by claiming to have slept with those men simply by filling out a form I probably would have done it. Hell, give me $1,000 back then and I would have signed a paper saying that I was an Alien who came to earth to worship Jane Fonda's toes. It doesn't fucking matter when it is all about the money.

Gays make more money than any other demographic. You can also afford to pay them more because you don't have to pay the benefits for a wife and family. Just health care for a family of four will cost you $10,000 - $15,000 a year.

When you are talking about "rights", like the right to call yourself married, the argument is mostly semantics. Gay people can will their assets and give the other person power of attorney. They can legally do everything they want but call themselves married. And get this, they still call themselves married anyway. When I got married, I gave an oath to my wife before my God. I never even thought of the state as sanctioning my marriage.




They have to spend a TON of money to get all the legal paperwork done an then it *still* doesn't provide the full scope of rights and privileges that merely signing your marriage certificate does. How is that equal?

And P.S., I don't think the entire gay community is faking it just to save a little money on taxes.


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: This is a disgrace! says conversative assholes [Re: unbeliever]
    #4358149 - 07/01/05 03:51 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I don't think that they are faking it, and I do think that they should be allowed to call themselves married.

But when you talk about the "full scope of rights and privileges" of being married being available to them, I would argue that many of those "rights and privileges" came about with the nuclear family in mind.

I am paying thousands in healthcare for my wife and kids. I think I paid $4-$5k just to remove a miscarried baby from my wifes womb. I live in an urban area, and the public schools are prisions. Private schools for the boys comes to $13k. That gets more expensive as they get older, right now I am talking preschool. I am going to buy them food, braces, cars and car insurance over the years, and I also have to save for their college, which the way it is going it will be $50 fucking grand a year by the time they hit it.

It is more expensive than ever to have children if you want to do it right. Let the gays marry, but lets take a serious and long look at our benefit structure, what we give and why we give it. Gays make more money than any demographic, and they don't have to pay the huge sums it takes to raise the next generation taxpaying, working, productive citizens.

Although as it stands many gays would probably be hit with the "marriage penalty". That would be amusing if after all the strugle to get married they suddenly ditched it because they didn't want to pay additional taxes.

I don't know the answers. Let them be free to do what they want. I think the government should get out of the marriage business altogether. They could still give a credit for dependants, and they could still give school vouchers for those who want a choice from the failed public educational system. I pity those people that have no choice but our urban public schools. In my town, that is where brains go to die.

And I just realized that the title of this thread doesn't disparage conservatives, only people skilled at the art of conversation. I guess they like to speak a lot, but they are assholes.

So take that pecker head.


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Offlineliveby
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Re: This is a disgrace! says conversative assholes [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4358167 - 07/01/05 03:57 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

miscarried baby removal cost 5g's shit , how much is abortion


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: This is a disgrace! says conversative assholes [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4358185 - 07/01/05 04:02 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

The title of this thread wasn't against people skilled in the art of conversation, but rather the conservatives that yelled out "This is a disgrace!" when gay marriage was legalized. A disgrace to what? Not equality surely.

What you argue is just the specific details of gay marriage, but it's the overall concept that many people oppose without compromising on the taxes or monetary benefits involved. I agree that the situation may be different for gays, however I believe if they adopt children or use scientific methods like in vitro fertilization to have kids they should be treated like a normal heterosexual couple in terms of taxes and benefits. Kids are kids, whether they have two gay parents or two straight ones, and the parents should be treated the same whether or not they're gay or straight.

Married couples without kids should likewise get the same benefits whether they're gay or straight, I'd say. If a married couple doesn't have to pay for kids, then they're off the same as any married gay couple.


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: This is a disgrace! says conversative assholes [Re: liveby]
    #4358186 - 07/01/05 04:02 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

That was my problem, if I would have gone to planned parenthood I would have saved myself thousands of dollars. Fuck me senseless.


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: This is a disgrace! says conversative assholes [Re: Ravus]
    #4358440 - 07/01/05 05:19 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Still, polls suggest Spaniards support gay marriage. A May survey by pollster Instituto Opina said 62 percent of Spaniards support the government's action on gay marriage, and 30 percent oppose it.



Good to see humanity has progressed somewhere in the world.


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: This is a disgrace! says conversative assholes [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4359102 - 07/01/05 12:35 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

JesusChrist said:
That was my problem, if I would have gone to planned parenthood I would have saved myself thousands of dollars. Fuck me senseless.




Exactly. It was your *choice* to have kids and get married. With all the hardships, burdens, happiness and rewards that entails. Yet you think you have the right to deny that to someone else? The hubris is staggering.

Drop the baby angle, it's crap and you know it. I have kids, I know how it works. I didn't automatically get all kinds of tax cuts and financial aid after I was married, beyond the basic stuff you get for being *just* married. Once I had kids though, yeah I got the bigger tax cuts and credits. There is no reason a gay couple shouldn't be afforded the same setup. Ie, when they get married they get the same protections, considerations, etc that all other married couples enjoy. If they adopt or otherwise bring children into their family then they should get those same additional benefits and considerations that every other married couple with kids gets.

No one is asking for MORE rights for gay couples. Only EQUAL rights. No matter how you dance around the issue, if you think it's *okay* to deny your fellow human beings and citizens the same rights you enjoy based on something as superficial as what they do with each in the bedroom as consenting adults... you might want to talk to Fred Phelps because he's on that same wavelength.


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Re: This is a disgrace! says conversative assholes [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4359241 - 07/01/05 01:19 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

JesusChrist said:
Should gay people be granted a monetary advantage for being gay? I am not so sure bout that.




They're not getting a monetary advantage, merely an equality of benefits. It would probably be cheaper for companies to give benefits to gays in a civil union, since the likelihood they would have a child is much lower.


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: This is a disgrace! says conversative assholes [Re: unbeliever]
    #4359470 - 07/01/05 02:17 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

unbeliever said:
Quote:

JesusChrist said:
That was my problem, if I would have gone to planned parenthood I would have saved myself thousands of dollars. Fuck me senseless.




Exactly. It was your *choice* to have kids and get married. With all the hardships, burdens, happiness and rewards that entails. Yet you think you have the right to deny that to someone else? The hubris is staggering.




I wasn't talking about aborting my kids. I would have never thought for a second about killing them. I love my children. I was talking in response to the fact that I paid over four grand to take a dead child out of my wife's womb, and had I gone to planned parenthood I would have saved thousands of dollars. I am guessing that the price difference is partly because of a federal subsidy to eliminate unwanted babies. I have to admit though, I have no idea what an abortion would cost.

It would have been my third boy, and he would be six months old. I miss him. It was probably our last chance though we may adopt when we become independantly wealthy. Boys are awesome.

Had I had a girl, I would have named her Cum Dumpster.


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: This is a disgrace! says conversative assholes [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4359498 - 07/01/05 02:24 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

JesusChrist said:
Quote:

unbeliever said:
Quote:

JesusChrist said:
That was my problem, if I would have gone to planned parenthood I would have saved myself thousands of dollars. Fuck me senseless.




Exactly. It was your *choice* to have kids and get married. With all the hardships, burdens, happiness and rewards that entails. Yet you think you have the right to deny that to someone else? The hubris is staggering.




I wasn't talking about aborting my kids. I would have never thought for a second about killing them. I love my children. I was talking in response to the fact that I paid over four grand to take a dead child out of my wife's womb, and had I gone to planned parenthood I would have saved thousands of dollars. I am guessing that the price difference is partly because of a federal subsidy to eliminate unwanted babies. I have to admit though, I have no idea what an abortion would cost.

It would have been my third boy, and he would be six months old. I miss him. It was probably our last chance though we may adopt when we become independantly wealthy. Boys are awesome.






That sucks and all.. but I'm not sure how it's relevant to gay marriage or even gay couples having kids.


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: This is a disgrace! says conversative assholes [Re: unbeliever]
    #4359556 - 07/01/05 02:40 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I got somewhat off topic and I was trying to relate the medical costs, social costs, educational costs and any other costs I could think of relating to having a family. I was trying to demonstrate why gay couples and straight couples might be treated somewhat differently from a benefit standpoint. When I said that I paid 4-5k for a miscarriage, someone chimed in alarmed and asked what it cost to have an abortion. My apologies for the drama and not sticking to the subject manner.

I used to be against gay marriage. I used to be firmly against gay adoption. I have met many gay people in my life and I have reconsidered my stance. People should be free to do whatever they want. I would think that in adoption that heterosexual couples should jump the list over gays in terms of preference. It is simply more natural of an upbringing. But we have gay people with tons of money in this country, and we have babies that need people that want to care for them and love them.

I live downtown, and gay people love to live in the cities. Probably because they feel like outsiders in the burbs. My next door neighbors are two gay attorneys. They both make fat cash and they are great neighbors and good guys. If they adopted a baby they would have virtually unlimited resources to shower on him/her. And if the gay thing causes any problems, they could certainly afford the therapy.


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