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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3982032 -

I've never understood how some christians are against evolution......if God created everything, then why is it so hard to believe that evolution is what God intended?


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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: newuser1492]
    #3982115 -

cb,

The first question can be argued only I have nothing to argue with because I don't know what caused the Big bang and where the elements that came from it came from. I don't believe the bible god is the source of this universe, okay. I don't know what is. I think the biblical god is just another product of creation evolution playing god with other evolving beings or beings creating a god from out of themselves. I'm with you, if there is some eternal consciousness that always was, I want to know where it came from because that doesn't make sense to me either.

Tren,

You don't have beliefs but keep open working theories so you really didn't qualify for my questionnaire. So science doesn't make fact of what is theory regarding evolution but some posters I read here treat it as fact. I wanted to hear from them. You called it a point of creation. So you must be a creation evolutionist too. Mind you that is different from a creationist. I am saying that something had to create the process of evolution. No one knows what that something is yet that I know of and if someone does know, I want to know too.

What I meant by emotion being built in is that it must serve our survival and I wondered why some people want to suppress and deny using it as a tool. If you see the value in it, then, this question wasn't for you either. I wanted to hear from those who see no value in it.

If we are simply material elements and chemicals, I do not see the need for sleep. Chemicals and elements don't need sleep or even rest. Why does human consciousness need a break? I heard the defragging reason and use to use it myself but then , when I think about lucid dreaming, it throws that reason out the window. I'm almost always lucid in dreams now so why do I need to sleep to dream if I am conscious there? I'll check out the Big Bang link, thanks for sharing it.

Gomp, matter created matter, huh..........thanks :tongue:

Are there any hardcore believers that in no way possible does some form or sort of creative intelligence that is the source of all of this exist???????Until all of my questions are answered with whys and hows, I want to know what would make one so sure. That is all.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: Dark_Star]
    #3982216 -

Dark_Star said:
I've never understood how some Christians are against evolution......if God created everything, then why is it so hard to believe that evolution is what God intended?


I wonder to why they don't consider that evolution itself could be a creation from a source of intelligence beyond out understanding.

Actually, I don't much anymore. NBC did a Special last week on Evangelistic churches creating them parks to convert children. NBC ran a random poll and found that 44% of the participants believed that God created the earth in 6 days. :crazy: :confused:

That takes some crazy ass faith to believe that one man, wow! :whoa:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3982238 -

Science and religion are not in conflict because they are separate fields. Science is based on fact while religion is based on faith. Neither needs the other. Evolution is compatible with any mode of religious thought if it is properly understood. Evolution is based on fact...cold, hard, scientific fact. Since it is fact it is a known, so therefore it does not impinge on religion because religion is unknown. Evolution does not require "belief"...it is based in fact, so it does not matter what your belief is. Fact is independant of anyone's belief, aesthetic sense, or liking...it simply is. That does not mean that evolutionary theory will not become more finely honed or that it is absolute in every way, but the basic concept has been shown to be a practical model for the advancement of life. Flawed reasoning and dogma have no place in either science or religion.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3982301 -

i think you need to go back to clown school. you're not going to get answers to the shit you're asking.


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better living through chemistry

OVERGROW the government!!

it's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom, ok, thats what it is.

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: derx]
    #3982323 -

http://www.evolutiondocumentary.com/#

this is a very well done piece that I hope everyone can view...


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Love Mercy, Act Justly and Walk Humbly - Micah 6:8

"Although they plan, Allah also plans. And Allah is the Best of Planners." [Holy Qur'an 8:30]

"Allah says: O son of Adam devote yourself to worshipping Me, and I will fill your bosom with richness and remove your poverty. And if you do not do this, then I will fill your bosom with occupation and distraction and I will not remove your poverty."

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3982347 -

Tell the flawed logic and reasoning part to people who believe a God created the earth in 6 days.

I myself am wondering how anyone is 100% sure that some creative intelligent source force didn't create evolution, nature and math so it could understand it self better as it watch itself unfold.

What about people who don't give the Bible much credit, are not religious, yet can't be so sure there isn't some creative intelligent source of everything. They can be seen as having flawed logic for considering there is much much more we have yet to understand, by people who don't know what caused the Big Bang.

I want to know how they can be so sure. I thought they could help me understand them better if they answer some of the questions that keep me not really knowing for sure.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3982378 -

"I myself am wondering how anyone is 100% sure that some creative intelligent source force didn't create evolution, nature and math so it could understand it self better as it watch itself unfold."

Now that one is unknown so anything goes. One thing for sure...something made all of this stuff...accident? I don't think so.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: derx]
    #3982410 -

derx said:
i think you need to go back to clown school.  you're not going to get answers to the shit you're asking.



:lol::thumbup:

I thought I'd ask anyway just to make sure no one is 100% sure because they know somwthing I don't. I concede my questions. :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3982438 -

Hmm I really wish all those people who claim to be atheist would read what Anthony Flew recently revealed. For those of you who are unaware of Anthony Flew I hope you will Google his name. But to be brief, he is the former champion of Atheism. He made a career out of denying God. However due to the science in things like this... http://www.evolutiondocumentary.com/# he has changed his position. He finally believes that Atheism is no longer a logical position in light of this evidence. Citing that the teleological argument for Theism can no longer be denied.


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Love Mercy, Act Justly and Walk Humbly - Micah 6:8

"Although they plan, Allah also plans. And Allah is the Best of Planners." [Holy Qur'an 8:30]

"Allah says: O son of Adam devote yourself to worshipping Me, and I will fill your bosom with richness and remove your poverty. And if you do not do this, then I will fill your bosom with occupation and distraction and I will not remove your poverty."

Edited by CyruxMafia (03/29/05 12:04 AM)

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: CyruxMafia]
    #3982476 -

hmm here is an article I found, http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=315976

I found funny the following:

"I'm thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian and far and away from the God of Islam, because both are depicted as omnipotent Oriental despots, cosmic Saddam Husseins,"

He's not quite there but thats okay... Its a big step from his former position.


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Love Mercy, Act Justly and Walk Humbly - Micah 6:8

"Although they plan, Allah also plans. And Allah is the Best of Planners." [Holy Qur'an 8:30]

"Allah says: O son of Adam devote yourself to worshipping Me, and I will fill your bosom with richness and remove your poverty. And if you do not do this, then I will fill your bosom with occupation and distraction and I will not remove your poverty."

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: CyruxMafia]
    #3982487 -

I do not claim to be an atheist, but to confuse fact with heresay and superstition is a terrible error that would lead to the misunderstanding of the facts conerning the nature of our existance. I am familiar with Mr.Flew, and his arguments do NOT hold water. By the way Mr. Flew was a PHILOSOPHER not a scientist.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3983144 -

I suppose you could call me a creation evolutionist, except I don't think evolution of the species in specific was "created", so much as the Universe was created and it is a natural function of the universe to increase in complexity.

Now, to say that we are only "material elements and chemicals" would certainly be wrong, because we humans are (as are many things) more than the sum of our parts. This is nothing special, however, as there are many examples of this type of emergent phenomena in our universe.

Take the elements themselves, for example. An atom of iron is more than just a packet of protons/neutrons/electrons, even if that is all it is made from. An iron atom has its own specific chemical properties, which are not instantly apparant when looking at the parts themselves. Chemical properties are an emergent phenomenon of large groups of nuclear properties.

Humans, and all Life, are much the same. Life is an emergent phenomena of chemistry, whereby if you gather enough chemicals together in the right configuration you get "life" which is more than just the sum of its parts (chemicals). Life has its own rules and properties to it, that you cannot see simply by looking at the properties of chemicals.

So you will end up with things like sleep, dreams, consciousness, society, or the internet...all as emergent phenomena of the layer below. As I said, the Universe progresses towards greater complexity :wink:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3984283 -

Code:
if at the end of evolution, everything makes sense and has a purpose then there is a purpose that makes sense to why we need to sleep to survive. That means, it is not an accident but DOES have a purpose after all, after all-at the end. So for those who think it was just an accident, is it really? According to you Wood, it does have a purpose and we don't know it yet. So how can people who are sure of accidents being random evidents be so sure of that if purpose comes into play later?


think of it this way:
when would evolution stop? It would stop if it created a god, a creature that had total control of the universe, everything anytime and was eternal. So tat is the end of evolution. In that end, this creature would be the perfection. And what does perfection mean?
It means that every single piece of the creature has some use (a purpuse). Only then can you ask: What does little piece do? What is this used for? What does it need this little thing for? That is why I mean by purpuse. In the process of creation of such a being, some things have no use because the creature is not perfect, some things will lead to death, some things will be lost in time etc. So it is pointless to ask questions ment for perfection about a being that is not perfection. A lot of things in the middle of the process of evolution make no sense because they grew out of randomness. Only in the end is all the unncesary deleted and everything has some use and perfect logical place in the organism. The "purpuse" I was talking about is not some hidden higher meaning, but logical use of parts of the being. Like a chair having a purpuse of being sit on. Nothing fancy





Quote:
There are people who believe in accidents. All accidents have a sequential cause.


Yes they do, if you ask me, accidents do not exist because there are rules, there are conditions and there is an outcome. The mistery of consciousness still leaves open the question of: Is human the only thing that we know of that can trully make accidents or is it just following the same rules, but that's another question.
But back to evolutionist view..
Accidents are fixed yes, but that does not mean they happen for a reason and purpuse, they just happen out of conditions, if a rock falls left because of the wind, it had to happen like that and no other way, yes, but that means nothing, no higher purpuse for the rock, or some grand plan for the rock, just nature blindly playing out the rules of the physics.

Quote:
Oldwood, I thought you were a creative evolutionists by all I have read from you. Why are you answering questions here?


Because I wanted to take a different role and play within its logic, I hope I am not anoying you


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: CyruxMafia]
    #3984450 -

Just looked at the documentary..

One thing I don't like. After chalenging the idea of evolution with valid evidence, it just jumps to the conclusion that supports religious dogmas.

If I were a creationist scientist, I'd ask my self the next important question..

If evolution is a false theory, then who is this creator?
Lord o mighty..that just isn't good enough in 21st century.
Who is this lord? How did he do it? Why did he do it? Can we contact it? Is he some alien race? If yes, where is he now? When did he do it? What is the scientific basis of the act of creation?





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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Edited by OldWoodSpecter (03/29/05 09:48 AM)

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3984614 -

The page on this thread got super wide. How annoying to read. Is anyone else seeing it that why, why does that happen?

Wood, by no means do I think there is some "Lord" "he" God that created the Universe and set the stage for evolution to occur.

Whatever did, why does it have to be a Lord or a He, why does it have to be an anything definable? Who knows what will turn up behind the cause of the Big Bang. Maybe what ever caused it doesn't even know it did and whatever it is is finding itself out and its means and reasons through the creation of consciousness and evolution.

I know a lot of People think some things are pointless to question or think about, but it is what keeps ME from blindly believing in things. If something doesn't make sense to me and someone says I should believe it, then, I am going to question the things that don't make sense about the belief, same goes with the biblical god and random evolution that came out of nowhere.

Neither or even both together explain the half of it. Religion cut itself short because all Bibles used by them were already written and have nothing more to add to answer questions that remain-to many to count or broaden an explanation. It left off on, you have to have faith on the rest. At least science is still open to growing and answering questions and explaining things. I think Spirit can help us to get a look see at what is going on behind the movements of physical matter. Some day I think the two- spirit and science will meet merge and drive each other. They almost have to as science is getting down and into subatomics and has fundamental theories of an aetheric field which is akin to spirit.

I just don't know and don't see where we have enough information or evidence yet to come to any conclusions about how we came to be and why we are. Until we know what behind the big bang, and be able to recreate on ourselves how can we really know?


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3984615 -

gettinjiggywithit said:
Why feel 100% sure of evolution without creation when it sits on a theory of the Big Bang?

If you think the Big bang will be proven soon to support evolution, where the heck did the elements that make up this physical Universe come from. Whats the source of the big bang?

Why did evolution build in a need to sleep and dream while asleep?

Why did evolution work in our ability to day dream, imagine and fantasize while we are awake?

Are these all useless side effects that should be suppressed?

If evolution built in our emotional body and ability to feel for others with a purpose for insuring survival of our species, if you think emotions are useless and override them with intellect, why? Might it be a lethal move for our species?

I appreciate any and all answers any of you have come up with that DO NOT  encompass, a creative source element behind evolution. Mind you I am not talking about "a God that made the earth is 6 days" stuff. I absolutely chucked that out the window before I hit age 12.

I want to know how others have reasoned creation out of evolution and why both can't be at play. There is a lot I can't make sense of without some creative intelligence at play. :tongue:


I don't think evolution can be said to rest on the big bang alone.  The big bang was the alledged start of the universe and evolution on planet Earth is a very seperate idea.

What mother nature has intended for us is something we are barely even making theories on!  These are some big questions here!

My reasoning for creation is really that we simply don't know!  I think the unknown is something we must accept.  But if I was to speculate then I would stick with the science view.  On Earth we are subject to mutation which over millions of years has allowed us to evolve into the thinking creatures we are.  I don't believe in God as God is a manmade concept, a product of evolution if you like! :smile: All known cultures from mankind have had Gods!  The Egyptian Gods were excellent!


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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: Ego Death]
    #3984832 -

Not knowing is something we MUST accept huh? That sounds familiar like "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain".

Well if others want to stand cowering in front of the fire ball face man, that's fine. I want to get behind the curtain. (talking about the wizard of oz here)

How about, "Yes, I can accept I don't know a MEGA TON, but why should I not care to know more about what I don't?" I would live in a perpetual state of misunderstandings if I did that.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4006721 -

gettinjiggywitit>> Evolution itself is based on the big bang theory. Does anyone question how stable the idea of evolution without creation is when it sits on a "theory"?

There is strong evidence that the Big Bang did exist. It's roots rely on Planck's work and blackbody radiation.

Anyways, I won't get too much into the details, but the basic idea was that the universe's creation was based on the notion of a gigantic explosion, which had the consequence of filling the early universe with radiation similar to one of that emitted by a blackbody.

To go more in depth, you need to plot a energy density vs. frequency plot for an ideal blackbody at some temperature; in our specific case, the temperature of the universe is approximately 3K. In 1965, two scientists by the name of Penzias and Wilson discovered radiation wavelength of approximately 7cm with equal intensity from all directions of space. Recently, with the COBE satellite, more data has been collected (wavelengths and their respective energies) to give a plot extremely well-fitted to Planck's equation for a blackbody. As a result, this is one of the most scientifically-sound evidence that the universe began with a "Big Bang."

You can be a skeptic of the Big Bang theory, gettinjiggywithit, but consider why the Big Bang Theory is so universally accepted. People do not accept theories (and create new ones from those theories) solely on what they have been told; they must be scientifically acceptable. In this case, it fit like a glove.

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4006823 -

Jiggy, I know Daba personally...

And I suggest you not dispute with him or you will get your ass handed to you on a silver platter.

He's Asian.



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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