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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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For Evolutionists?
    #3981084 -

I 'm sort of a creation evolutionists as I theorize the nature of evolution itself is a creation.

I often wonder if people who think of themselves as evolutionists have asked themselves certain questions and what answers they came up with. I don't have answers for these questions myself, based on evolution ALONE, which is why I can't throw the idea of evolution being a creation out the window.

Evolution itself is based on the big bang theory. Does anyone question how stable the idea of evolution without creation is when it sits on a "theory"?

If the Big Bang theory becomes proved, it will need to show, and be able to repeat where the elements that make up this physical universe came from before the Big Bang.

Do evolutionists ever wonder or question, where all of these elements that the evolution of the physical universe sprang from? What answers to you come up with, I want to know and consider them.

Looking at evolution itself, how many of you question why the need for sleep evolved in human beings. What answer did you get?

Have you questioned what purpose there was for us to dream when we sleep? Why did evolution develop this ability?

Have you questioned why evolution gave us the ability to daydream, imagine and fantasize pictorials and ideas? How did evolution do this and why did it do this? What was its purpose for insuring our survival?

Have you considered that if it were not for the evolution of our emotional body, babies would probably not be cared for nor would we care for each other and we probably never would've survived as a race of beings for this long. If evolution gave us the ability to feel for each other to help insure our survival, why do some evolutionist who are also mentally and logically oriented prone to play down the importance of our emotional beingness and emotions?

So to wrap of the questions for evolutionists here they are;

Why feel 100% sure of evolution without creation when it sits on a theory of the Big Bang?

If you think the Big bang will be proven soon to support evolution, where the heck did the elements that make up this physical Universe come from. Whats the source of the big bang?

Why did evolution build in a need to sleep and dream while asleep?

Why did evolution work in our ability to day dream, imagine and fantasize while we are awake?

Are these all useless side effects that should be suppressed?

If evolution built in our emotional body and ability to feel for others with a purpose for insuring survival of our species, if you think emotions are useless and override them with intellect, why? Might it be a lethal move for our species?

I appreciate any and all answers any of you have come up with that DO NOT  encompass, a creative source element behind evolution. Mind you I am not talking about "a God that made the earth is 6 days" stuff. I absolutely chucked that out the window before I hit age 12.

I want to know how others have reasoned creation out of evolution and why both can't be at play. There is a lot I can't make sense of without some creative intelligence at play. :tongue:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3981100 -

i think first you must define evolution. What do you consider evolution to be?


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better living through chemistry

OVERGROW the government!!

it's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom, ok, thats what it is.

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: derx]
    #3981144 -

I'm not going to wait for you to respond. I believe you have the term evolution mixed up with "how did life begin" Evolution does not sit on the big bang theory. Evolution is based on many contributing sciences: fossil record, biogeography, comparative anatomy and comparative biochemistry. All of these support the hypothesis of common descent, which of course is what evolution is. Evolution is the process of decent from a common ancestor and adaptation to the environment.

Have you considered all of these facts from the other sciences?


--------------------
better living through chemistry

OVERGROW the government!!

it's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom, ok, thats what it is.

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: derx]
    #3981148 -

Darwinism came to mind. These questions were addressed to those who want to take the Creative out of creative evolution and just believe in "evolution".

I think there is a creative intelligent source everything sprang from because I can't answer the questions I asked without it existing. I want to know how, I guess its Darwinists, do it. I figured, they must have answers to those questions to be so sure of Darwin's theory and that no creative intelligent source exists. If they don't have answers to them, then, they are in just as much if not MORE blind faith and ignorance then they claim creative evolutionists to be. i can't know that or make that observation until I learn how they have answered those questions and if they have even asked them of themselves or science.

I want to understand what they know that I apparently don't. I think if you have to ask what I mean by the word evolution then, you are not one I was asking these questions too. Evolutionists, minus the creative, KNOW who they are and that they are.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: derx]
    #3981167 -

First of all, evolution is not based on the big bang theory. Evolution is based on evidence such as fossils, DNA sequences, etc. From what we've seen, it's clear that all species are closely related (we all use DNA for instructions and amino acids for building blocks) and the changes in DNA between closely related species are miniscule. The need for sleep is still unlcear, but without sleep we die (see chronic insomnia). Dreaming happens probably for the same reason we day dream. Conciousness is a curious thing; it's the result of a complex network of millions of neurons all firing in response to outside and inside stimuli. As far as emotion goes, it coincides with conciousness and probably comes from instinct. So suppressing emotion in the name of logic is merely suppressing instinct. We have to due to social consensus. Everytime I see a beautiful girl I can't just go mate with her as my emotions command me to do. Thus I am suppressing emotion (instinct). Human conciousness is truly amazing and we can learn a lot from it. Creation is a concoction of our emotions in an attempt to understand what isn't obvious.

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: derx]
    #3981171 -

It does sit on the Big bang, because you have to be able to explain where the earth and elements that created it and the biological life forms that sprang from it of came from. I don't think I have it mixxed up because the evolution of how earth came to be is derived from the big bang theory.

So yes, I am looking at the big picture. Eitherway, I want to know if anyone has answers to my questions.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3981177 -

Woah, guys, you are repeating Darwins theory to me. We all already know what that is.

I am looking for answers to the questions I asked. I don't know the answers to those questions. If anyone does, kindly please share so I can understand how you to a creative source of intelligent out of the mix here.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3981181 -

I'm not an evolutionist but I'll try to answer:


gettinjiggywithit said:
If the Big Bang theory becomes proved, it will need to show, and be able to repeat where the elements that make up this physical universe came from before the Big Bang.
Do evolutionists ever wonder or question, where all of these elements that the evolution of the physical universe sprang from? What answers to you come up with, I want to know and consider them.


All the different atoms are made from sma stuff, neutrons, protons and electrons. So in this first step you have eliminated a very large chunk of diversity. What if you went eve further in the microworld and found that all quarks, electrons and everything else are made from the same smaller particles only differently arranged? what if even energy and photons are made out of this same stuff? And what if this stuff is not stuff at all, but like little wrinkles in space-time, nothing more. Then you get to the fact that there is nothing exept space-time, everything that IS is actually turbulence in space-time fabric. You have eliminated a whole bunch of questions now,
and you have only one left: what makes those turbulations and wrinkles? I'm stuck here, but it does simplify your question to a more elementary question..

Quote:
Looking at evolution itself, how many of you question why the need for sleep evolved in human beings. What answer did you get?


Forced rest, the body forces you to rest, relaxe muscles, shut down some systems and recover, nothing strange about it

Quote:
Have you questioned what purpose there was for us to dream when we sleep? Why did evolution develop this ability?


Dreaming is like defragmentation of hard drive, and like food digestion, a mind takes some time to solve some inner conflicts, make sence of things, rearange and label the memory items etc.

Quote:
Have you questioned why evolution gave us the ability to daydream, imagine and fantasize pictorials and ideas? How did evolution do this and why did it do this? What was its purpose for insuring our survival?



Daydreaming is necessary for solving complex problems, you must be able to visualise and daydream to calculate possible outcoms, it is like when you turn on "simulate" in nero before burning a CD

Quote:
Have you considered that if it were not for the evolution of our emotional body, babies would probably not be cared for nor would we care for each other and we probably never would've survived as a race of beings for this long. If evolution gave us the ability to feel for each other to help insure our survival, why do some evolutionist who are also mentally and logically oriented prone to play down the importance of our emotional beingness and emotions?



That has little to do with their theory, they are using their theory to justify their emotional unstability and dissapointment in life.


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3981211 -

Old wood, I appreciate your attempt to answer my questions but if you notice, you didn't answer them or answered them from a perspective that has beleifs different from those I was adressing.

Where did the makings of atom, the micro bits of those and the space time fabric come from? You just told me they are there. We know that already.

yes, we have forced rest, duh, WHY was the question. What is the need for it is the question?

About dreaming, you told me what it is The question is, why do we need to be asleep to do it?

You explained why day dreaming has use related to evolution. However, the question went out to types who say it is a waste or escapism to day dream. The question went out to those people.

Obviously, you see the purpose of the emotional body so again, this question was not for you but for those who see no purpose or value in emotions.

Thanks anyway as I am still no further ahead in understanding then when this started. :tongue:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Edited by gettinjiggywithit (03/28/05 05:51 PM)

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3981222 -

jiggy, what makes you think creativity precedes evolution or is even required for evolution? can't evolution just be the product of the properties of matter? to me, god is what enforces the rules of physics because that is what makes evolution possible. opposite charges attract because it's energetically favorable, not because a creative intelligence wills it so.

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: ribozyme]
    #3981239 -

God is an idea of a creative source of intelligence behind evolution. Your beliefs make you a creative evolutionists of sorts. These questions went out to those who are just evolutionists and do not beleive in any sort of creative intelligence source beyond matter itself.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3981242 -

As I've said, the first answer was not an answer, but simplification of question..

Then those things about sleep...
If you don't rest you die, are you asking why did evolution not make us perpetuum mobile or what?

Dreaming..
the brain can't do that while you are awake because there is too much imput and your CPU is bussy. Why the need? Your brain would go into psychosis if it didn't take time to rest like that.

remember that evolution theory is not based on some grand plan, but simple chance, so some features might be neutral and without a purpuse. For example if a flower gets red stains because of some mutation by radiation, it might carry those genes a million years in the future even though they never changed anything really and are compleatly neutral. Not everything has a purpuse in evolution.


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3981245 -

I think up to a certain point we evolved according to Darwin's theory. But past this point we ceased to evolve in symbiosis with our environment but rather we began to create our own environments. Perhaps to this day and age we are still evolving, but not reactively the same way Darwin explained. In today's society the leaders are hardly the fittest, nor do the fittest reproduce the most, so it's all screwed up. But perhaps we are still evolving according to our DNA, regardless of environment.

It's important to understand that not all of our features are a result of evolution. We evolved to a certain point, and then our traits were plunged into a totally different kind of environment. Perhaps, for example, we were never 'meant' to daydream, but in today's dehumanized metal environment our ability to imagine is used to fantacize about better environments. This need for escape, this specific use of our abilities, arises only because of the strange environment we've created for ourselves.

In our contemporary environments it's hard to tell why we evolved the way we did because the aim towards which we use what evolution has given us is different from that which was naturally intended. Also we've lost touch with many gifts we naturally possess, but which also runs countercurrent to what the mainstream considers relevent. We've simply forgotten about these abilities.

Things are so perverted these days. :frown:

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3981274 -

Yes old wood, why is it we can not just stay awake all of the time until we die? What evolutionary purpose does it serve for life to sleep half of its life away?

Why would we go into psychosis if we didn't dream at night?

Where do those two features fit in with evolution?

I know what evolution theory is based on. It doesn't answer my questions and that's why I am asking them to evolutionists.

Pheonix, you wrote a nice bit on creative evolution theory. It was enjoyable.

My questions went out to people who believe that matter creates the ability for consciousness not that consciousness created matter.

Maybe that will clear up who I want to here answers to my questions from.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3981312 -

Why are we not perfect energy consumers that do not need to sleep?
The same reason why rocks are not perfect spheres.
Only at the end of evolution can you ask these questions, at the end of evolution everything is supose to make sense and have a purpuse,
in the middle of the process everything is random and has no purpuse.
Why do we sleep, because we turned like that by accident, because we are accidents, this accidental feature made us survive, so we did.
You can't ask WHY about accidents, they just happen for no reason.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3981399 -

if at the end of evolution, everything makes sense and has a purpose then there is a purpose that makes sense to why we need to sleep to survive. That means, it is not an accident but DOES have a purpose after all, after all-at the end. So for those who think it was just an accident, is it really? According to you Wood, it does have a purpose and we don't know it yet. So how can people who are sure of accidents being random evidents be so sure of that if purpose comes into play later?

There are people who believe in accidents. All accidents have a sequential cause.

Even a car accident was the cause of someone not following the rules of the road. If our need to sleep was an accident, then somewhere the rules for our blue prints were not followed. What happened there?

Why can't I ask why now? Should I just believe in something that has no reason or proof? Is that what evolutionists, who believe matter made consciousness not the other way around are actually doing?

Oldwood, I thought you were a creative evolutionists by all I have read from you. Why are you answering questions here? I really want to hear from the people who think evolution created creativity and that matter creates consciousness.

So far, no one can tell me what created matter and where it came from.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3981680 -

Do evolutionists ever wonder or question, where all of these elements that the evolution of the physical universe sprang from? What answers to you come up with, I want to know and consider them.

That's the first cause argument. If the Big Bang happened it had to come from something. Well in the same light if God exists he had to come from somewhere. Some people argue that he always existed, well it takes to mystical leap in logic to argue that the universe or the material for the Big Bang always existed.

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3981752 -

Why feel 100% sure of evolution without creation when it sits on a theory of the Big Bang?

It doesn't. Science is very reductionist in it's approach towards the world, so the theory of Evolution is only a theory about evolution, just as the Big Bang theory is only a theory about the early universe.

If you think the Big bang will be proven soon to support evolution, where the heck did the elements that make up this physical Universe come from. Whats the source of the big bang?

The elements were created in a process called  nucleosynthesis , starting about 3 minutes after the creation event. Before +3 minutes, the universe was still too small, dense, and hot for matter (protons, neutrons, and electrons) to exist (or exist long). Once it was cool enough for protons and neutrons to exist they could begin to combine into the first elements (hydrogen, helium, deuterium, and lithium). The first stars, a billion years later, used nucleosynthesis again to create the heavier elements including the ones necessary for life to exist.

The source of the big bang is still very speculative. The big bang theory itself is not a theory of creation, as it begins a few small moments (10^-12 seconds) after time 0. Theory suggests that prior to 10^-43 seconds there is no point in discussing "time" or any concept of space so, really, anything is possible.

Check out this site for a short tour of the big bang:  tour of the big bang

Why did evolution build in a need to sleep and dream while asleep?
Why did evolution work in our ability to day dream, imagine and fantasize while we are awake?

"Evolution" is not a thing that exists, it is a theory about a process which appears to have happened, resulting in us and the rest of Life as we see it. We have a sleep/wake cycle because at some point in our evolutionary history it was a beneficial adaptation to have. The fact that there is day/night on the Earth easily explains sleep/wake cycles in everything that has them. Life is exceedingly adaptive, and will fill any available niche if given time. So there are specific adaptations for survival in the two very different periods of an Earth day. Some fill the night niche, some fill the daytime niche. Physically, sleep serves the function of systems repair, during the "off hours" when the organisms abilities are not at their best (we sleep at night because we aren't adapted for night survival). Dreams are still difficult to explain, but are probably an informational systems function of the brain, like a nightly virus scan and defragment on your computer. Dreaming could help re-organize memory and consciousness after the days work.

Are these all useless side effects that should be suppressed?

That entirely depends on what is possible, and what you and I are willing to do to ourselves. Sleep may be necessary, both mentally and physically, for the survival of an organism as complex as humans. That isn't surprising, either, because our survival has been fine tweaked along with the sleep/wake cycle for many millions of years.

If evolution built in our emotional body and ability to feel for others with a purpose for insuring survival of our species, if you think emotions are useless and override them with intellect, why? Might it be a lethal move for our species?

Feedback exists in even the simplest of organisms as a way of rating the survivability of the environment. I think we experience "emotion" as the conscious equivalent of these feedback mechanisms. All emotion could be tied to survivability, with "positive" emotions experienced when good survivability is expected and "negative" emotions when survival is threatened. It certainly wasn't "built in" by evolution, as evolution isn't a thing :wink:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: newuser1492]
    #3981788 -

""So far, no one can tell me what created matter and where it came from.""

matter creates matter..
matter comes from matter.. :P

anyways, I'm closing in on writing some shit about dreaming, might be relevant..

you know, how we have matter in dreams, some say "we can not dream awake", now i know i got a few takes on why that is.. but ill leave it to the big type down :P


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Disclaimer!?

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Re: For Evolutionists? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3981947 -

I believe that the evolution/progression of life & vile matter is trivial for understanding but it is essential for what is. Before we try to indulge our quest for knowledge we should first fortify our existence. The extremely bad karma that revolves around the people who do great evils will stop us from truely examiming our existence and how we came to be. What we do in our lives will not be the test. It is what we leave behind that will measure us. I'm going to use an example put forward by Stephen Hawking. I don't have the exact quote but I'm pretty sure it's in the book "A Brief History of Time," which everyone should read. Hawking said that as we look into the light cone as a method of seeing through time and we finally reach the light of the beginnings of our universe there will only be a curved mirror image. What we search for will be only what is. I like to associate this with man's ultimate goal of understanding our purpose and life, completely. It is all too similiar.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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