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InvisibleSilversoul
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George Bush was right about what?????
    #3916637 - 03/14/05 04:22 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

http://www.lewrockwell.com/browne/browne42.html

Was George Bush Right?

by Harry Browne

Some liberals have begun to wonder aloud if maybe George Bush was right all along in his Middle East policy. You can read a gloating summary of what some liberals have said, and how the conservatives are celebrating an alleged victory in an article by Jeff Jacoby, a somewhat libertarian conservative writer for the Boston Globe.

Here's how his article begins:

Quote:

"'It is time to set down in type the most difficult sentence in the English language. That sentence is short and simple. It is this: Bush was right."

Thus spake columnist Richard Gwyn of the Toronto Star, author of such earlier offerings as "Incurious George W. can't grasp democracy," "Time for US to cut and run," and, as recently as Jan. 25, "Bush's hubristic world view."

The Axis of Weasel is crying uncle, and much of the chorus is singing from the same song sheet.

Listen to Claus Christian Malzahn in the German newsmagazine Der Spiegel: "Could George W. be right?" And Guy Sorman in France's Le Figaro: "And if Bush was right?" And NPR's Daniel Schorr in The Christian Science Monitor: "The Iraq effect? Bush may have had it right." And London's Independent, in a Page 1 headline on Monday: "Was Bush right after all?"

Even Jon Stewart, host of Comedy Central's Daily Show and an indefatigable Bush critic, has learned the new lyrics. "Here's the great fear that I have," he said recently. "What if Bush . . . has been right about this all along? I feel like my world view will not sustain itself and I may . . . implode."

For those of us in the War Party, by contrast, these are heady days. If you've agreed with President Bush all along that the way to fight the cancer of Islamist terrorism is with the chemotherapy of freedom and democracy, the temptation to issue I-told-you-so's can be hard to resist.

"Well, who's the simpleton now?" crows Max Boot in the Los Angeles Times. "Those who dreamed of spreading democracy to the Arabs or those who denied that it could ever happen?" On the radio the other day, Rush Limbaugh twisted the knife: "The news is not that Bush may have been right," he chortled. "It's that you liberals were wrong." The gifted Mark Steyn, in a column subtitled, "One man, one gloat," writes: "'I got a lot of things wrong these last three years, but, looking at events in the Middle East this last week . . . I got the big stuff right."




Getting Specific

George Bush was right about what?????
  • We're not one whit safer than we were before.
  • We're a whole lot less free than we were before.
  • Not one person, not one group, not one population in the Middle East is freer than two years ago.


The fact that Iraq had an election (as they did under Hussein), or that Hosni Mubarak is thinking about letting some Egyptian run against him and lose, or that a handful of Saudis got to vote for some local tribesmen, or that Lebanon will be having an election soon (they have them regularly already) doesn't make anyone freer than he was two years ago.

We have no more idea what will happen in those countries than Ronald Reagan, the CIA, and the joyous hawks knew in 1989 that "mission accomplished" Afghanistan was about to sink into a civil war that would leave the country ruled by the Taliban. But this lack of knowledge of the consequences to be unleashed didn't stop conservatives from celebrating a great victory ? prematurely, as always.

(In Jacoby's defense I must say that he at least acknowledges that the final chapter hasn't been written yet. But if that's true, isn't it a bit deceptive to be celebrating now?)

The Iraqi Lesson

As for Iraq, the election is over, but curfews remain, the checkpoints where innocent Iraqis have been killed are still operating, the devastation of cities hasn't ended, the barbed wire remains around whole cities, no one has taken responsibility for the torture and so we can only assume it will continue, the censorship is still in force. But we're supposed to celebrate that "freedom is on the march" ? even though Iraqis face the same restrictions they faced under Hussein.

"The chemotherapy of freedom and democracy" in reality means that 100,000 Iraqis, mostly civilians, are dead. Is that what George Bush was right about ? that the march to freedom must trample over the dead bodies of human beings? Or don't Iraqis count as human beings?

The Celebrations & the Prospects

Meanwhile, the Bush propaganda machine rolls on ? celebrating meaningless events that are supposed to be first steps toward meaningful events. But anyone who has studied the history of government knows that promises and first steps are worthless. I'll celebrate when some country is actually freer than before.

And I'll really celebrate if that country is the United States of America.

But since there's little chance that Afghanistan will be free or peaceful in the near future, very little chance that Iraq will be free or peaceful within a few years, and only a remote chance that any Middle Eastern country will actually be freer next year than it is now, the Bush administration will have to turn our attention elsewhere. And, unfortunately, that probably means invading another country ? such as Syria, Iran, or some other country that doesn't have the ability to put up much of a fight.

Right or Wrong?

If Der Spiegel or Daniel Schorr or Jon Stewart wants to ponder (not proclaim) whether Bush might have been right, it doesn't change reality. George Bush hasn't been proven right about anything. He lied us into a terrible war.

And if liberals have been wrong, it has been in going along with too much of the Bush doctrine, and in not standing up for the sanctity of human life.

Only libertarians have recognized that force never produces good results. And so far they are the only ones who have been proven right.

I've been wrong many times in my life, and I've never found it difficult to acknowledge my mistakes ? even in public, if appropriate. But not one thing has happened so far to give me the slightest doubt that I was right to oppose the killing of 100,000 Iraqis, to oppose the killing of thousands of Afghans merely to turn the country back to the war lords, to oppose the imprisonment and torture of Americans and foreigners who have never been tried or even indicted for anything, or to oppose the many steps taken to turn America into a police state.

I'm sorry. Conservatives can gloat all they want. After all, it seems to be in their nature to celebrate as done deals things that are only promised for the future. But there's no way to avoid the fact that they're supporting bloody murder, the suppression of American liberties, and a President who has no conception whatsoever of the history and the culture of the Middle East.

Choosing Life or Death

Wouldn't you think that if you were President, with a $2? trillion budget at your disposal, you could hire the best minds in the world to devise a less violent, more effective way of ending the terrorism war and solving the foreign problems that may actually affect America?

Instead, we have a President who won't look for a better way because he relishes being the Ruler of the Universe ? the man who hears from God what's best for each nation of the world, and who has the power to crush any country that doesn't obey his commands.

He may be powerful, but he isn't right ? not about anything so far.


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InvisibleDNKYD
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Re: George Bush was right about what????? [Re: Silversoul]
    #3916707 - 03/14/05 04:40 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

A good read, thanks.
I don't think people realize the extent of the current administration's Middle East policy. They think it's just spreading democracy to all the "oppressed" souls across the ocean.


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: George Bush was right about what????? [Re: Silversoul]
    #3917752 - 03/14/05 10:04 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Wouldn't you think that if you were President, with a $2? trillion budget at your disposal, you could hire the best minds in the world to devise a less violent, more effective way of ending the terrorism war and solving the foreign problems that may actually affect America?




No, because Americans don't have a monopoly on killing...far from it. Sorry, but you seem to act like the world would be such a beautiful, peaceful place if the americans weren't here to go around the world slaughtering everyone. Don't forget america has had its share of peacetime and in that time, millions of people around the world were killed unjustly by governments and rulers.

In fact, right now most of the murder in Iraq is coming from non-iraqi factions who target iraqi civilians and US troops alike to achieve their goals...I don't even think these people know what their goals are other than to avenge the suffering they've seen in the only way they know how, regardless of if it's against the guilty or not.

I am still against how the problem with Iraq was handled because I, like most people in the world, hate death and killing. However, I would not be at all surprised if good things eventually evolved from this. They would need to be VERY good things to get me to think it was all worth it though.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: George Bush was right about what????? [Re: Catalysis]
    #3917835 - 03/14/05 10:19 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

War has never solved anything....Except Nazism, Fascism, Communism...there's more but I don't remember them all


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: George Bush was right about what????? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3918106 - 03/14/05 10:55 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
War has never solved anything....Except Nazism, Fascism, Communism...there's more but I don't remember them all




Apples, Oranges and Phonebooks would also work as a comparative analogy for those three "isms".


--------------------
Happiness is a warm gun...


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InvisibleDNKYD
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Re: George Bush was right about what????? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3918128 - 03/14/05 10:57 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Fascism, communism, and nazism have all been "solved"?! Oh happy day!


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: George Bush was right about what????? [Re: DNKYD]
    #3918341 - 03/14/05 11:24 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Democracy does seem to be taking root in the middle east. Many people thought that was naive and impossible. The Bush Doctrine was certainly right about that.

Wasn't Browne against WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam and the first Gulf War as well? Imagine my surprise that he is no big fan of Iraq.

I couldn't even read it anyone. He compared the recent Iraqi election to the elections of Sadaam. I am glad he put that out front so I didn't have to waste my time with the rest.

We live in a violent world. Reasonable people can come to different conclusions on how to face up to the challenges of this difficult and violent world. I for one think that the idea of spreading liberty and democracy is a noble idea. If we are to stand for anything it should be freedom and liberty.

I think down the road history will be very kind to George W. Bush. I loved the Jon Stewart quote I read somewhere about how kids will be going to schools named after Bush. Their may be some truth to that. If the Middle East comes around he may well go down in history as one of the greatest and most transformative men to have ever held the office.

Apparently George Bush has been misunderestimated.


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Tastes just like chicken


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OfflineShroomDoom
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Re: George Bush was right about what????? [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3918417 - 03/14/05 11:34 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JesusChrist said:

Apparently George Bush has been misunderestimated.




It sounds like another one of W's words, gotta add it to the dictionary :smirk:. That evil mealy-mouthed crotch-pheasant makes a new one up every time he opens up that gaping sewage outlet he calls a mouth :tongue2:.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: George Bush was right about what????? [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #3918431 - 03/14/05 11:38 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

As President, Bush has done his job, but he has not done his job proud.


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Fiddlesticks.



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Offlinestarptv23
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Re: George Bush was right about what????? [Re: Rose]
    #3918548 - 03/15/05 12:00 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

bush is evil...he wants ever one and ever where to be a mold of materialism ...911 thousands die he says...go shopping...great president now he wants to change the middle east...he went after Saddam because of his father...if he cared what about Africa or north Korea..he is evil and only thinks of his companies


--------------------
"Six words: drop out, turn on, then come back and tune it in -and then drop out again, and turn on, and tune it back in-it's a rhythm- most of us think God made this universe in nature-subject object-predicate sentences-turn on, tune in, drop out- period, end of paragraph. Turn the page- it's all a rhythm- it's all a beat. You turn on, you find it inside, and then you have to come back (since you can't stay high all the time) and you have to build a better model. But don't get caught - don't get hooked - don't get attracted by the thing you're building, cause... you gotta drop out again. It's a cycle. Turn on, tune in, drop out. Keep it going, keep it going- the nervous system works that way. gotta keep it flowing- keep it flowing.


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OfflineThe_Walrus
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Re: George Bush was right about what????? [Re: starptv23]
    #3919811 - 03/15/05 07:20 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Of course there are still a lot of problems in the middle-east, but it is hard to deny that what is happening there right now is definetaly a step in the right direction. How much Bush had to do with this resurgence in 'people power' in the middle east is debatable. It was Yasser Arafats death that re-sparked the drive towards peace in Isreal/Palestine. It was because of Ayatohlah Al-sistani that Iraq didn't descend into civil war. It was because of the assasination of Lebanons prime minister that loads of people are protesting there. But again, it is impossible to deny that George Bush's policies in the middle-east did provide a catalyst or spark for this with the invasion of Iraq, that signaled the beginning of change.


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'Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted' - Albert Einstein


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: George Bush was right about what????? [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3919853 - 03/15/05 07:40 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

he may well go down in history as one of the greatest and most transformative men to have ever held the office.




Just like the rest of the Time Magazine 'Man of the Year' crowd


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: George Bush was right about what????? [Re: unbeliever]
    #3919858 - 03/15/05 07:45 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Apples, Oranges and Phonebooks




how many people have died from apples, Oranges and Phonebooks?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: George Bush was right about what????? [Re: The_Walrus]
    #3919865 - 03/15/05 07:48 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

resurgence in 'people power' in the middle east




Yes quite

"the truth is on our side, and the basic masses, the workers and peasants, are on our side." - MAO TSE-TUNG


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: George Bush was right about what????? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3919869 - 03/15/05 07:50 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

This guy once got beat up real bad by a bunch of bikers armed with phonebooks and old hard dried oranges


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: George Bush was right about what????? [Re: CJay]
    #3919912 - 03/15/05 08:18 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I stand corrected...


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: George Bush was right about what????? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3920043 - 03/15/05 09:30 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

He didn't die tho - thankfully the medics saved him

:grin:


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: George Bush was right about what????? [Re: CJay]
    #3920130 - 03/15/05 09:59 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Probably saved him with apples....communist apples.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: George Bush was right about what????? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3920277 - 03/15/05 11:13 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

damn straight - not a bad one among 'em


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: George Bush was right about what????? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3920565 - 03/15/05 12:34 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
Quote:

Apples, Oranges and Phonebooks




how many people have died from apples, Oranges and Phonebooks?




Actually it was highlighting the disparity between each element with emphasis on the first two compared to the third. But I'm sure you understand that, being such a smart guy and all..

But to rise to the bait..

Nazism: Countless millions as a by-product of the intolerance for non-aryans.

Fascism: Being a more general or "generic" form of nazism, that is to say an "ideal" of rampant nationalism (and racial superiority) under the thumb of a single powerful dictator who enforces a stifled and oppressed society... who knows how many millions have been killed in the marginalization of rights and liberties in fascist societies, not to mention anyone who goes against those governments...

Communism: There are a couple different ideas of communism. One is the simple theory of eliminating private property and establishing a commonly owned goods system which provides to all as needed. Then you have the specific implimentation of communism as seen by, say, the U.S.S.R. which was more about oppression of the masses, the arms race and general global superiority. The pure idea of communism was merely a tool of expression for the goals of the dominant communist party, ie, maintaining their own power within the state and globally.

In any case communism is a socio-economic ideal and is not itself inherently destructive.

I'll close with another analogy, one perhaps better suited to the original.

Hand grenade, Machine gun,  and Shovel.

All three can kill but the first two are designed specifically for that purpose and serve little other. Whereas the third is a tool to be used for good or evil at the whim of the wielder. :wink:


--------------------
Happiness is a warm gun...


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