Home | Community | Message Board


Edabea
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1
OfflineToTheSummit
peregrinus
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/23/99
Posts: 9,065
Loc: Las Vegas
Last seen: 2 hours, 35 minutes
Extremist attitudes
    #340885 - 06/14/01 08:40 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

In a rescent post there were some "facts" carelessly throw around for the purpose of making a point. These so-called "facts" are a direct result of the attitudes and the propaganda spread by people who are extremists. Here they are:

1) An area 1/2 the size of Florida is cut down in the Amazon each year.

2) 96% of all forests in the US have been cut down.

3) 20,348,064 acres of rainforest have been cut down in 2001 so far.

4) 74,876 species have gone extinct in 2001.

Let me address a couple of things here.
First, statement 1. I ran the numbers and if Florida is 58,664 sq miles and the Amazon rainforest covers 2.3 million sq miles then it will all be 100% chopped down in less than 80 years. Tragic? Yes. Possible? I seriously doubt it!! I'm sorry, but we couldnt chop down the entire Amazon in a century if we TRIED! And besides, we've already been seriously logging in the Amazon for 40 years! So are you telling me its half gone now? Even conservatively, using those numbers it would have to be AT LEAST 25% gone! And that is just pure bullshit! Take my word for it folks, the Amazon is NOT 25% gone! And if you don't want to take my word, study it for yourselves!

Now let me jump to statement 3. Try to follow me on the math here folks. "20+ million acres of rainforest already gone down so far this year". The area supposedly logged annually (according to statement 1) in the Amazon alone is less than 19 million acres per year. So, here we are halfway through the year and already more than the annual amount logged in the Amazon is gone. So where is the rest being taken? I was under the impression the the Amazon comprises over 1/2 of the worlds rainforest. Do the math here and plug the numbers into the first statement and you find out that there will be NO rainforest left on the planet in about 60 years or so. Do you really believe that? I'm just amazed if you do!

Lets take a quick look at statement 4: 74,876 species extinct by the year 2001. Well, if you want to go to the beginning of time, yeah, in fact its probably more. But lets clarify this statement instead of just throwing it out there as a scare tactic to show what evil fucks humans are (this statement was obviously used to show mankind responsible for such a thing). And if you want us to believe that this is all modern day and caused by man I would like to see a list of these species!!

And, of course, statement 2: Jesus fucking christ! How big of a moron do you have to be to believe THAT ONE! If you do, then you'd better get out and take a drive across the country!!

Look, I did not address this issue to slam the person who posted these things. I understand we all have different points of views and I respect that. What is really bothering me here today is that the blatant use of bogus science and flat-out lies are used to persuade people into believing something. And I'm not just down on the extreme environmentalists here. There are extremist on both side of every issue. I get so fed up with people throwing out these ridiculous facts, numbers, studies, and "scientific" data just to support thier cause. I don't care from which side of an issue it comes from, it always pisses me off when bad science is used to persuade the masses of ignorant lumps who will believe anything you tell them.

Again, I am not trying to pick a fight with environmentalists here today. I am just as concerned about taking care of it as anyone and I can proudly say I do more than most to actively participate in conserving and taking care of our planet and its resources. What I AM trying to do is pick a fight with people who think it is OK to spout bogus, misleading, or completely false statistics to support thier cause. I think it is a reprehensible thing to do and you should be ashamed of yourself if you do it knowingly. And if you are fooled into believing someones dribble and you spread it without checking it out then you are just part of the problem and you'd better wake up and start taking a long hard look at things before you form an opinion!

Please folks, educate yourselves about the REAL problems that face us and find out what you can do to help solve them. I don't want you to agree with me, I just ask that you know what it is you are fighting for before you go out and pick that fight! And for God's sake...DON"T BELIEVE THE HYPE!

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Two wrongs don't make a right...but three lefts do!


--------------------
You invented the wheel....You push the motherfucker!!


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Extremist attitudes [Re: ToTheSummit]
    #341359 - 06/15/01 12:07 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I know who you're talking about. He believe he must get his information from the Environmentalist wacko's...it's hard to take him seriosly

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleAgent Cooper
veteran

Registered: 08/04/00
Posts: 210
Loc: right behind you
Re: Extremist attitudes [Re: ToTheSummit]
    #341364 - 06/15/01 12:15 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

This numbers were pulled from an incredibly moderate environmental science textbook and both Time magazine and Newsweek magazine - hardly extremist my friend. Even the sources are from research departments that are funded by logging companies, showing how tree-farms are important. Greenpeace didnt manufacture these numbers, sorry to burst your bubble.

Of course there is always disagreements with calcuations regarding deforestation - but general consensus for the Amazon is roughly between 10 to 22 million acres per year. Almost all researchers agree on this, and this includes a very broad spectrum of opinions - hardly a medium for propaganda and scare tactics when you have scientists from corporations like Maxxam who agree that there is a problem and concur on these numbers (albeit, they are on the low side of this rate & their solutions are not quite ecological sound - i.e. tree farms).

Whether the true number is 10 million or 22 million - that still is a hell of alot of trees being cut and alot of natural wealth going down the toilet. Consumption and profiteering are at an all time high - if you cant even see this, then I'm sorry.

I dont think all of the Amazon will be cut down - nope. Some of it is and will be protected in national forests, just the same as it is in the United States and elsewhere. Although a majority of it will be cut down and turned into grazing land, farm land, and urban areas due to population, 1st world consumption, and corporate greed.

Yes, you read correct. 96% of forests in the United States have been cut down for farmland, development, grazing land, and for logging. All you have to do is compare where there used to be forests & where the real remaining forests currently stand (tree farms, neighborhood parks, and highway medians not included). Other nations face similar circumstances - name any developing or industrialized nation in the world and you will find similar rates of deforestation. For example - Central America has lost 2/3 of its natural forests - most it being cut down only in the last 30 years. Costa Rica: 83%, Haiti: 80%, India: 90%, etc. All of this has occurred more or less in the last century or two - humanity has effected the natural world in a negative way.

I have traveled across America & I have lived in over 10 states; most of what I have seen is farmland and human dwellings. When you fly across this country all you see is plot after plot of farmland and human dwellings. Of course there are forests here and there - but not any like there was in the past.

As far as the extinction rate, those numbers were taken from Time Magazine and Newsweek - hardly Greenpeace-esque mouthpieces. These are the same people who cater to the multinationals and water-down, commerial journalism. These are the same people that named George W. Bush as Man of the Year. Even they will admit the natural world is being fucked over.

Biologists generally agree that the rate of extinction is between 100 to 1000 times as great as it was before the coming of humanity. Throughout most of geological time, individual species and their immediate descendants lived an average of about 1 million years. They disappeared naturally at the rate of about one species per million per year, and newly evolved species replaced them at the same rate, maintaining a rough equilibrium. No longer. Not only has the extinction rate soared, but also the birthrate of new species has declined as the natural environment is destroyed.

No - 47,000 species or so have gone extinct in the last few months. Most of these are small creatures, but imporant to the health of any ecosystem.

This is hardly hype - how cynical can one get?

Edited by Agent Cooper on 06/15/01 05:09 PM.



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMOoKie
member
Registered: 04/06/01
Posts: 119
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
Re: Extremist attitudes [Re: Agent Cooper]
    #341465 - 06/15/01 02:56 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Ninety-six percent of virgin forest land has been cut down. Meaning, only four percent of the forests that exisisted when the Mayflower came, still exist. That's not to say that only four percent of the country that used to be covered in forests still is. At the turn of the century, there was mass deforestation. But today, you wouldn't be able to tell the places that were bear for miles as little as fifty years ago. Two tree's are planted for every one that's cut down, now.

Forest land is still abundant. In fact, forests today are like six times denser then forest land before Westerner's came here. That's not a good thing either; it leads to a a very unhealthy forest. But we can't let the natural occurence of forest fires happen anymore, can we?

All the trees that exist in America aren't in some gated little field that Mr. Factory Owner drives his SUV to on the weekend.

Ya, we are causing a lot of extinction. Survivial of the fittest right? Where's Charles Darwin when you need him? The great mammals, like the wooly mammoth, died out before human's got to them.

Farmland and dwellings? What a tragedy.



--------------------
"If it ain't one thing, then it's the other. Any cause that crosses your path; your heart bleeds for anyone's brother. I've got to tell you you're a pain in the ass."      Oingo Boingo!


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleAgent Cooper
veteran

Registered: 08/04/00
Posts: 210
Loc: right behind you
Re: Extremist attitudes [Re: MOoKie]
    #341580 - 06/15/01 05:31 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

In reply to:

Ninety-six percent of virgin forest land has been cut down. Meaning, only four percent of the forests that exisisted when the Mayflower came, still exist. That's not to say that only four percent of the country that used to be covered in forests still is. At the turn of the century, there was mass deforestation. But today, you wouldn't be able to tell the places that were bear for miles as little as fifty years ago. Two tree's are planted for every one that's cut down, now.




The 4% is the only remaining forests that havent been molested, yes. Not any of this half-cut down, logging road-scarred, dead ecology & RV park and managed forestry nonsense. Listen, there is huge difference between a forest and a tree farm. Monoculture reforestry (large plantations of single-species, single-use, and intensive cropping) is neither a forest nor healthy. They encourage pest and disease infestations. This type of management lends itself to mechanized clear-cut harvesting, which is profitable in the short-term, leaves soil exposed to erosion - which encourages floods. Monocultures eliminate habitat for many woodland species and disrupt ecological processes that keep forests healthy and productive. This is what a large chunk of our forest have become.

I am not necessarily against logging, rather I am opposed to the methods employed by the corporations and their stooges in the government - specifically clear-cutting and forest management (tree farms). Why not choose a more sustainable method like selective logging? It's incredibly profitable in long term, saves jobs, healthy for biodiversity and the trees, and keeps the local economies going. But of course, the name of the game is Quck Bucks! and selective logging actually takes skill and forethought as opposed to just mowing down large plots of land, so strike that idea.

Mass extinction as Darwinism...yeah, nice nihilistic attitude. Sounds like a dead-end to me.

Edited by Agent Cooper on 06/15/01 05:52 PM.



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleKid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: Extremist attitudes [Re: ToTheSummit]
    #341681 - 06/15/01 07:14 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

> Tragic? Yes. Possible?

Yes, possible.



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleKid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: Extremist attitudes [Re: MOoKie]
    #341683 - 06/15/01 07:16 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

> Two tree's are planted for every one that's cut down, now.

Please cite reference, because THAT sounds like bullshit.

And as for your Darwinism, I hope you know that a lot of important scientific research is done on other biological organisms that can help our species. Even if you don't care if these other species suffer pain, perhaps you'd care that they can be exploited.

Edited by Kid on 06/15/01 07:18 PM.



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineToTheSummit
peregrinus
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/23/99
Posts: 9,065
Loc: Las Vegas
Last seen: 2 hours, 35 minutes
Re: Extremist attitudes [Re: ToTheSummit]
    #341717 - 06/15/01 08:29 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

As I thought would happen, this thread deteriorated into a fight over environmentalism. Please Coop, let me say again, I am not attacking you specificaly here. Its true, I don't share all the same beliefs that you do but I am open to a rational discussion. But more importantly, that was not the intent of my original post. I am disturbed by the use of studies, stats, and data by people just to put that big "exclamation point" on thier belief system. I don't really care where you got the stats, I still would dispute them on the basis of pure logic. Especially the 96% thing. That is a completely irrational statement if I have ever heard one! It is designed as a scare tactic and I think it is sad to see people fall for it so easily. But it seems to be human nature to always believe in the worst. I remember just 18 months ago all the hype about the impending Y2K doom. I went around laughing at everyone I met who believed it was going to actually be an issue. Funny how those 'believers' all disappeared on 1/1/00!!

You can argue your stats all you want and try to scare as many people into believing the worst if that is what you feel is the right thing to do. Myself, I prefer to use logic and reason to argue my point and help educate others. There are a lot of problems to address in this world and I am proud to be doing my part to educate others about the REAL problems and find solutions. And I don't feel the need to use trumped-up facts to do the job.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Two wrongs don't make a right...but three lefts do!


--------------------
You invented the wheel....You push the motherfucker!!


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Extremist attitudes [Re: Kid]
    #342555 - 06/17/01 01:09 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

****Please cite reference, because THAT sounds like bullshit****

There are city ordinances that cite that if a tree of a certain caliper is removed it has to be replaced with 2 trees of the same species of a lesser caliper somewhere on the property. I know this because i have run into this problem in site design.

I don't remember the exact caliper but i'm guessing around 3"

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezetek
enthusiast

Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 210
Loc: United States
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Extremist attitudes [Re: ToTheSummit]
    #342827 - 06/17/01 02:57 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I think the "area half the size of Florida" is wrong. I just checked a few sources and found the current rate of deforestation in the Amazon to be about 7500 sq. mi. annually. (I think that everyone, when citing statistics, should be careful that they don't accidentally change the units, say from hectares to acres or sq. mi. I'm not saying that happened here but I can see that happening easily). 96% of virgin forest in the U.S. has been cut. I'm not sure on what the estimated number of extinctions per year is, but suffice it to say there IS a mass-extinction going on right now, and it is human-induced.

Here is a nice "hyper-textbook" on Biodiversity & Conservation that I found:

http://darwin.bio.uci.edu/~sustain/bio65/Titlpage.htm

I had an opportunity to do some field work in the tropics this spring and see firsthand what is going on down there. The thing that amazed me was that much of the land was being cleared for no obvious reason. You hear about clearing it for pasture or cropland, and I did see some of that. But many of the people seem to be clearing the land just as you or I would mow the lawn. They just want it out of the way. Pretty sad...

Support the Free Spore Ring!
go.to/FreeSporeRing


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Didn't Amazon.com used to be all about saving the rainforest? Baby_Hitler 254 0 09/13/05 06:53 PM
by Baby_Hitler
* Bush, the rainforest and his pals Xlea321 628 11 07/31/03 10:05 PM
by Zero7a1
* Who are the extremists? Xlea321 726 7 09/08/03 06:53 AM
by Innvertigo
* top federal officials: animal rights extremists are most serious terrorism threat to the nation 1stimer 1,107 16 05/21/05 11:01 AM
by Grav
* Everyone here is an extremist
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
silversoul7 5,416 136 05/10/04 05:36 PM
by infidelGOD
* Extremists drive school buses, officials warn Luddite 842 9 03/19/07 01:37 AM
by gluke bastid
* Iraq Connections to U.S. Extremists Great_Satan 629 6 01/06/05 04:14 PM
by DNKYD
* Why is it that the extremists are always so well prepared?
( 1 2 all )
CultyVader 1,110 25 05/09/03 03:05 PM
by Azmodeus

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Prisoner#1, Enlil
1,475 topic views. 2 members, 1 guests and 5 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Everything Mushrooms
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2016 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.077 seconds spending 0.001 seconds on 14 queries.