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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Everyone here is an extremist
    #2612935 - 04/28/04 09:07 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I was just thinking about how the political arguments we have in here are much more extreme than those in Congress. For example, on minimum wage and welfare, the libertarians here generally favor repealing these things, but even the most conservative congressmen have not proposed that we repeal these things. They simply oppose any expansion of these things, or favor reductions in them. Then, when it comes to drugs, most people here favor legalization of at least marijuana and hallucinogens, while in congress, the most progressive senators and representatives only go as far as supporting decriminalization. These and other things have led me to believe that everyone here is an extremist.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,714
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Re: Everyone here is an extremist [Re: silversoul7]
    #2613045 - 04/28/04 09:45 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

but even the most conservative congressmen have not proposed that we repeal these things.



Merely because they are vote buying schemes.


Quote:

They simply oppose any expansion of these things



:wtf:


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Everyone here is an extremist [Re: silversoul7]
    #2614241 - 04/29/04 02:27 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I am a moderate extremist.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Everyone here is an extremist [Re: silversoul7]
    #2614370 - 04/29/04 02:57 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

the libertarians here generally favor repealing these things

I've read "libertarians" here saying if all those who couldn't work starved to death then they wouldn't "reproduce" and eventually the world would be a "better" place. It's straight out of the "Lives unworthy to be lived" program the Nazi's launched in the late 30's. Except the Nazi's didn't take it quite so far.

These and other things have led me to believe that everyone here is an extremist.

Maybe that's why a lot of people on the left found pastures new and stopped posting here.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Everyone here is an extremist [Re: Xlea321]
    #2614396 - 04/29/04 03:05 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I think that the nazi's wanted to usurp the role of mother nature.

the libertarians just want to let nature run its own course.


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: Everyone here is an extremist [Re: silversoul7]
    #2614591 - 04/29/04 03:50 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I think you'll find that most online political forums are populated by extremists. That's just the nature of the beast. Most moderates who happen to wander onto such forums see the large number of nutters and crackpots and get scared off. One mark of an extremist is a refusal to compromise, and the average moderate sooner or later realizes that it's a waste of time to argue with such people.

Just as a side note, I don't think it's terribly healthy to be making four, five, six thousand or more posts a year on a site like this. No offense, but your own number of posts is really absurd. You're an intelligent guy and you could be using that time and energy in more productive ways that either make a positive difference in the wider world or that enrich your own life intellectually, creatively, or professionally. Let's not forget that what goes on in this tiny little forum is of almost zero consequence.

That said, I know how addictive it can be. For some reason many dead ends are very addictive. Maybe it's just a subtler version of Thanatos.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: Everyone here is an extremist [Re: Xlea321]
    #2615061 - 04/29/04 06:52 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Except the Nazi's didn't take it quite so far.




Really? Perhaps you could point out to me the last time (or even any time) the libertarians bombed cities or killed 6 million jews?

That's exactly the type of things you say that the "righties" you abhor find so easy to mock you for.


Quote:

Maybe that's why a lot of people on the left found pastures new and stopped posting here.



Nah.... it's because they couldn't defend their ludicrous positions and went elsewhere to participate in circle-jerks and mutual back patting. Too many merely assumed (imo) that there would be little but drug addled stoners here who'd buy anything they had to say.

Didn't work out.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,714
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Re: Everyone here is an extremist [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2615063 - 04/29/04 06:54 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Let's not forget that what goes on in this tiny little forum is of almost zero consequence.



True words.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Everyone here is an extremist [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2615165 - 04/29/04 09:03 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

the libertarians just want to let nature run its own course.




Lol! how is the minimum wage against nature??!


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Always Smi2le


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Everyone here is an extremist [Re: GazzBut]
    #2615331 - 04/29/04 11:04 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Nature = might makes right


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Everyone here is an extremist [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2615632 - 04/29/04 12:56 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Really? Perhaps you could point out to me the last time (or even any time) the libertarians bombed cities or killed 6 million jews?

No, read up on what I actually referred to - the lives unworthy to be lived program from the late '30s. (You've never heard of it have you)

That's exactly the type of things you say that the "righties" you abhor find so easy to mock you for.

And this is exactly the kind of dishonesty I expect from you. And why thoughtful people take everything you say with a large pinch of salt.

Nah.... it's because they couldn't defend their ludicrous positions

:lol:


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Everyone here is an extremist [Re: GazzBut]
    #2616042 - 04/29/04 02:01 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

the libertarians just want to let nature run its own course.




Lol! how is the minimum wage against nature??!



Is there some natural law about how much money you can make? Okay then.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: Everyone here is an extremist [Re: silversoul7]
    #2616052 - 04/29/04 02:04 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

War is not my voice.





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--------------------------------


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,714
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Re: Everyone here is an extremist [Re: Xlea321]
    #2617092 - 04/29/04 05:14 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

And this is exactly the kind of dishonesty I expect from you. And why thoughtful people take everything you say with a large pinch of salt.



\
Yet when I ask you to demonstrate the alleged dishonesty, you never follow through. Wonder why that is?

I'm sure you've looked yet you never show an example. Because you can't.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (04/29/04 05:15 PM)


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OfflineDigitalDuality
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Registered: 04/29/04
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Re: Everyone here is an extremist [Re: silversoul7]
    #2617456 - 04/29/04 06:29 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

By today's social norm.. i'm probably viewed as an extremist to quite a few, but i don't think they ever talk to me long enough to realise my objectivity on subjects. I'm stern in my stance, but i'm willing to be disproven. If i'm wrong i'm wrong. The Right would probably consider me far left. But for the most part i think the left is spineless and leaps before they look too often and believes in equally ridiculous things as the right.

I think party loyalty and political spectrum identification is retarded. B/c then you begin to identify with like minded peers rather than get objective views on topics..

Sure, i'm pro-gays and minority equality, pro-drug legalization, anti-war, pro-environment, pro-choice, etc.. but i didn't get this way merely by hearing/reading people that agree with me, i got this way through debate. But also, I'm anti-PC, anti-affirmative action, anti-high gov't spending, as well as supporting the idea that our prisons should be tougher, that spanking children should be allowed, etc..
But normally people see the liberal side first and merely judge me from that...

I also think "extremists" is a politically loaded term that really doesn't apply to this board, or many of the other boards i frequent. Bin Ladin.. is an extremist, Jerry Falwell.. is an extremist. I don't know anyone online like them.. well maybe a handful like Falwell but that's about it.


Edited by DigitalDuality (04/29/04 06:33 PM)


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OfflineGernBlanston
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Re: Everyone here is an extremist [Re: DigitalDuality]
    #2617512 - 04/29/04 06:38 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Well said. I can relate to a good chunk.


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There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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OfflineViveka
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Re: Everyone here is an extremist [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2617819 - 04/29/04 07:41 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Nature = might makes right




Not really. It's more about the fit of an organism with its environment that makes "right", ie survival.

If an organism cannot adapt to its environment, it will not survive.
Compare this reality to the human condition and we see that if an individual cannot adapt on his own, he will not do well. Nature does not change to accomadate organisms. Similarly, society should not change to suit an individual, rather that should be up to the individual. If you are poor, stop telling yourself you have no upward mobility and feeding yourself on the old class warfare copout and get out there and use your abilities to find a way for yourself.

In this sense, libertarianism is more like nature, and more realistic, than statism.


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OfflineDigitalDuality
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Re: Everyone here is an extremist [Re: Viveka]
    #2617860 - 04/29/04 07:49 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Where as i can applaud the freedom libertarianism allows, i cannot accept social darwinism.

Libertarianism wouldn't make way for child labor laws, environmental protection. While humanity encompasses many aspects of nature, we dually have defied and broken the restraints of nature. To say the rules for us should be the same is fallible thinking and is drawn from ill-thought comparisons.

I agree the self-inflicted, and society-inficted guilt complexes, self pity, and the like can aid in keeping the poor at the level that they are at. But realisticly speaking, not every man/woman/child can pull themselves up by their bootstraps. And we have designed a system that functions on having a percentage of people that are not the most educated, are not financially well-off. And we need those people. Otherwise men/women with MBA's and PhD's will be mopping your floor's, building your houses, and serving you in the drive through.

As society becomes more and more functional on systems, beaurocracies, hierarchies, etc.. there's a good number of people who cannot and willnot be able to adapt to accept those systems. The system you advocate, will put an end to artists, unless they make art for the masses rather than from their heart.

As i disagree with the abuse of welfare, it can be a useful tool. Corporations and the rich thrive on the backs of thousands of poor and middle class. I'm not going to finger point and make every CEO who succeeded in life to be a corporate crook, but at the same time society should respect the masses that uphold it.

Economics is not "natural". Government and religion are not "natural". And you want to use ecosystem type of balance to control the ones at the bottom of this system? Gimme a break..

If you want me reasoning behind why humanity has risen to the point we are at, the ability to adapt is one of them. But our ability to be curious, to laugh, be immature, irresponsible, to be entertained, to push limits.. are things we do that the rest of nature does not. Most of nature is pure stimuli and reaction. You could try to define actions of human beings with logic.. to a point, but then you get into the whole "Matrix" arguement. YOu're not going to be able to figure everyone out and apply a particular system to them and think it's going to work. Whenever you are not objective, can make exceptions, and fail to be compassionate in order to realize the injustices and wrongs of systems.. can you fix them and have humanity care on in its evolution. Otherwise we'll just be pumping out better materialistics and technical innovations, and simuntaneously repeating history.

the idea of libertarianism is so very strange to me. It's almost socially anarchistic in one fashion on the far left, the incredibly right winged in another. Min Wage is a great one. So is the idea behind "companies shouldn't hand out medical insurance".

I'd like for every libertarian to live in the world they dream about for just one week. You have no idea how many things you take advantage of that got you where you are today, things most people take for granted or don't even realize they utilized in order to get where they are at in life. Most libertarians living in their ideal world would come home crying to mommy in a matter of days. IMO it shows such a disregard for human life, and the quality of life, it's inexcusable, and i really wonder how the fuck this 3rd party has recieved the attention and support that it has. It conjures up images of Hitler who thinks abortion, drugs, gays, and freedom of religion are a-ok.



Edited by DigitalDuality (04/29/04 08:03 PM)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Everyone here is an extremist [Re: DigitalDuality]
    #2618160 - 04/29/04 09:05 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I can relate to your dislike for social darwinism. Although I consider myself libertarian, I am not 100% sure I would want to get rid of welfare and minimum wage entirely, though I would like to cut spending on these programs.

Quote:

Most libertarians living in their ideal world would come home crying to mommy in a matter of days.



Most libertarians' ideal world would be something like America in its early days, minus slavery and with things like women's suffrage, etc.

Quote:

I agree the self-inflicted, and society-inficted guilt complexes, self pity, and the like can aid in keeping the poor at the level that they are at. But realisticly speaking, not every man/woman/child can pull themselves up by their bootstraps. And we have designed a system that functions on having a percentage of people that are not the most educated, are not financially well-off. And we need those people.



An excellent rebuttal of communism, but libertarianism does not ignore social stratification. It survives on it.

Quote:

IMO it shows such a disregard for human life, and the quality of life, it's inexcusable, and i really wonder how the fuck this 3rd party has recieved the attention and support that it has.



How is it diregard for human life if we don't want the government stealing from us? Most libertarians are strongly in favor of voluntary charity. We just don't want to be forced to donate.

Libertarians are not trying to create a perfect world. We are trying to create a just world. One in which people's natural rights are not violated, and they are free to carve out their destiny. We are not Hitler, for he was the very face of coercion and violence. We are the opposite. We stand for freedom.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Everyone here is an extremist [Re: silversoul7]
    #2618624 - 04/29/04 10:40 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

dude, are you like, currently performing a social psychology experiment or something? You seem to be posting the exact opposite of shit that you've stood for in the past, both in here and in S&P. What's with the sudden change of identity?

just curious


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