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Pocket mycorrhizae experiment * 2
    #29420449 -

Hypothesis

The lifecycle of a mycorrhizal species will result in fructification earlier if it is within a pocket mycorrhizae, eg, a mycorrhizae that is only active in a really small area. If the entire 'mycorrhizae' is just in a jar, the conditions of fruiting will obviously obtain earlier than if you have a plantation of 20 trees spanning a large area.

Background
This study found the fructification of chantarelles on 16-month-old saplings in a greenhouse. while other sources generally estimate a time of 3-7 years from planting of inoculated saplings to fruiting. So the chantarelles fruited more quickly in an isolated environment, likely because the entire span of the 'mycorrhizae' the mushroom had to deal with was relatively small.

In the growth of truffles, commercialization has begun in many areas, but one downside to the investment is the long time before fructification from introduction of the spores, sometimes up to 10-15  years as the trees mature. An American company, Burwell farms, recently boasted of finding truffles 2.5 years after planting one of its orchards, which may be a record. 

Experiment description

To see whether fructification of a tuber sp. (for example T. Melanosporum) can be achieved in an even shorter time than was found by Burwell farms, if the only mycorrhizae available at all was in a small enclosed area - such as a terrarium or greenhouse. The essential idea would be a 'pocket mycorrhizae'. The simplest means of this would be simply a jar with a plant growing in it, relatively isolated from the plants outside.

Methods and materials

A fruiting body of a truffle sp. (prob. T. Melanosporum, I would like to find a PNW native truffle but they are harder to source for me) will be used to inoculate a small jar terrarium in which a tree is living. Half of the truffle will be ground and turned into a slurry so that the spores can be distributed around the soil; other parts of the truffle will be cut up and left in the soil in larger pieces, to potentially act as a longer-lasting and more stable inoculant. (See a note at the bottom on what I've researched about the fruiting of the Tuber sp. for justification of this technique).

The plant could either be grown first from acorn or from a cutting. I think growing it from acorn after truffles were already introduced to the soil may be the most sure method because the plant would be introduced to the fungus from its start of life without the ability of any other competing species to get a foothold. Additionally, the acorn can be soaked in water with truffle spores before being introduced to soil that also has truffle spores in it.

Here is what I'm not entirely sure of yet, though: What is the best method to create an isolated mycorrhizae? I could see maybe a few potential ways to do it. One would be to treat it as a closed terrarium, eg a sealed jar - these are hard to predict, but often the plant provides enough oxygen to keep living and even sustaining an insect population. However, I fear that this method will create a less varied and vibrant insect community because of the 'stuffy air' created by sealing the jar - further that the plant would not be as healthy. Also, it may be that fresh air exchange is a crucial component of the growth of truffles, as it is for the basidiomycetes mushrooms. I could conduct this experiment in a greenhouse, as the Oregon State researchers did with chantrelles, and use air circulators and other things used in professional greenhouses; but I don't have one currently, and I imagine that fruiting within a whole greenhouse would take more time than in an even more isolated area, one jar.

My current plan is one of the following (haven't decided):
A. in a small jar mycorrhizae, isolation is achieved by covering the environment with breathable foam, as is used to store fruit flies - foam that allows gas exchange but does not allow insects to escape or enter from outside. (One can consider a completely sealed jar terrarium a secondary example of A.)
B. a small jar mycorrhizae that is open to the air entirely, perhaps outside near larger trees. In this case insects can come and go freely from the jar, but unfortunately may bring spores from other competing mycorrhizae species from trees around.


Method A achieves superior isolation, while still allowing gas exchange. However, no more insects would be able to gravitate towards the mycorrhizae other than those already living in the soil at the time. Insects, however, are probably important in some respects given how they spread the truffle mycelium, would help break down the truffles left in the soil and may help the fructification process.

Method B still achieves some measure of isolation - however, would be exposed to the rain as well as insects that live primarily in trees around, which surely have other very healthy mycorrhizae in them. According to my research, soil surrounding mycorrhizal trees can be filled with condia from them - outside insects may bring these conidia to the small jar, creating competition.

But is it possible competition wouldn't be bad? As long as the mycorrhizae is established firmly in the jar, perhaps if it is opened the conidia from outside sources wouldn't be able to do much. Perhaps the outside competition exposure might trigger fruiting. However, with the achievement of fruiting faster in a greenhouse with chantrelles than outside of one, isolation probably needs to be maintained to some degree or else the mycorrhizae won't be able to maintain itself against so many competing outside forces.

Also, method B will make it hard for me to handle when it rains - the jar will overflow with too much water. I'll have to pour some out out, which will obviously introduce some of the conidia from this jar to the ground around. Would this hurt the 'isolation' I am looking for in my mycorrhizae, to result in fruiting later?

A note on fruiting of Tuber sp.

Looking at these two studies on this subject, 1, 2, one can reach a similar conclusion: the mycelium of a tuber sp. starts off with high diversity as sexual ascospores fruit into one of the two sexes (we can call them m or f). Eventually, the mycorrhizae becomes all 'female' sex, which seems to coincidence with the maturation of it. In studies on plantations, eventually all the mycorrhizae found in all the trees becomes one sex, hence the mycelium all becomes the 'mother' - this process being noted to take several years.

This then has resulted in something described in research as 'the mystery of truffle parentage' or 'the missing father', eg where the other sex comes from in order to produce fruits. The theory seems to be that the 'father' is represented by the spores distributed from the fruiting bodies by animals, perhaps sometimes from a slightly different truffle plantation (eg birds who come from one mycorrhizae to another), other times from fruiting bodies produced by the same plantation. This creates a 'spore bank' within the soil. The ascospores are eaten by an animal and then travel through the animal poop as new inoculating material around the trees, potentially a fruiting trigger. The stable, established mycorrhizae being the mother, the random generic material introduced from many sources acts as 'father'.

The relevance for this study is that it shows the mycelium of all inoculated plants talks extensively to each other and gets on the same 'page' sexually as the mycelium matures. Therefore, with a smaller amount of mycelium to all mature as the 'mother', fructification may happen quicker - so if the only truffle inoculated trees are in a greenhouse with the spores only being distributed by insects, as opposed to having to rely on larger animals, maturation may take substantially less time.

Now, how could this 'father', found from ascospore distribution, be replicable in a pocket mycorrhizae? The answer would be to do in your experiment what animals in nature do: to distribute ascospores throughout the medium. One could grind up a truffle into a slurry and pour that water in the medium, littering ascospores throughout the medium, which could be enough of a reserve in the soil to trigger fructification.

The method discussed earlier I think takes account of this unique aspect of truffle physiology to help earlier fruiting. That method was to leave big pieces of a truffle as well as to use a spore slurry. The big pieces that stay intact will create a stable mycelial culture, which will soon act as the mother; the distributed ascospores will create genetic diversity, resulting in more interactions between father and mother and, hopefully, eventual fruiting. In this setting, insects will probably be essential - ascospores can probably be moved around by fungus gnats, mites, spiders, etc in the medium, and that might be essential to any success. It seems as though truffle plantations favor certain mites, probably those that form symbiotic relationships to it (see this study).

What would the effect be of an open jar around trees? Well if all the trees were inoculated with truffles, I think the mycorrhizae of the jar would 'talk' to the tree mycorrhizae (through conidia and ascospores distributed by insects, etc), and it may take much longer for fructification because it is no longer isolated. Because the mychorhizae would then encompass the whole area surrounding the trees too, I think it would take much longer for all these truffle-inoculated plants to get the same mycelial sex as the 'mother'; thus, my theory is that fructification would take longer in an open jar around truffle trees than it would be if the jar was more isolated. (Fructification may still be faster in an open jar than in a planted inoculated plant). But there may be an alternative - what if an open jar near truffle trees is exposed to more spores in the 'spore bank', and hence may get a fruiting trigger faster?

But what if there is an open jar next to trees that haven't been inoculated with truffles? Would it perhaps fruit faster with competitive pressures? Slower because there are conidia from a higher range of species being distributed to the medium, making it harder for the truffles to take control? I am not sure.

Final thoughts

I will start this experiment within the next few weeks. I will have to obtain materials (acorns, truffles) and I am trying to decide between methods, either A (a closed jar or jar sealed off with breathable foam) or B (jar open to the air). The place where I get fresh truffles doesn't have any in yet. A greenhouse with a good ventilation system may be ideal, but I do not have the materials for that as of yet - I could make one. However, perhaps a 'grow tent' similar to how cannabis is sometimes grown, with good ventilation, would be a good middle ground in terms of maintaining a mycorrhizae while keeping it isolated, but still allowing good air exchange and potentially a healthy insect population. There are a lot of considerations.

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Re: Pocket mycorrhizae experiment [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #29426994 -

Hazelnut trees are being used as the host tree for  T. Melanosporum  in North America.

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Re: Pocket mycorrhizae experiment [Re: falcon] * 1
    #29427089 -

I actually have a hazelnut tree out in my front yard. I could take a cutting - I don't think I can find an actual seed as the squirrels get to them quickly. A cutting would work, it might have the disadvantage of being already colonized by some other mycorrhizal species, but that doesn't make it impossible. Taking a cutting might avoid some of the other species colonizing the tree since I'm not actually taking anything from the soil.

I'm going into the market this weekend for a specialty store near me that advertises they just got some italian black truffles in, very likely T. Melanosproum.

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Re: Pocket mycorrhizae experiment [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #29447787 -

I think the lack of genetic memories would make the plan B a little more difficult. Tbh I don't think I understand it that well but mycorrizal fungus can preserve "genetic memories" to grow faster with kinds of threes already known by the fungus. Idk if they can outcompete in an open space while being in a jar and having less mediums of growth and comunication. Im talking from my little to no knowledge in this toppic, Im also repetin things I've been told about black truffles cultuvation in a single greenhouse at a very specific area of México so Idk if they are meant to have this previus experience with all kinds of eviroments or just this specific. If this resonates please explain me more about it


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Re: Pocket mycorrhizae experiment [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #29457192 -

So I do not know much about truffles but I have spent a great deal of time researching and experimenting with Morchella. Recently I believe I have seen the "male" mycelium show up in one of my tubs. It is heavily intertwined with the initial larger vegetative growth and produced round chlamydospores. I was going to just write it off as mold but my buddy showed me this pic from a Chinese researcher that depicts what most certainly appears to be the same phenomenon.



macro view:


I think what is happening with Ascomycota is an initial formation of a multinuclear heterokaryon shortly after initial ascospore germination. Then once the right factors occur to signal reproduction time has arrived, the secondary mycelium emerges to do the fertilization in a wild display of some hot fungal sex.

TLDR: The 'male' nuclei hitches a ride in the female cytoplasm until its time to fuck.


--------------------
Back when I was younger, I didn't have a clue, and come to think of it, I still doubt I do.



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Re: Pocket mycorrhizae experiment [Re: Rakko_chiikawa]
    #29457198 -

Rakko_chiikawa said:
Im also repetin things I've been told about black truffles cultuvation in a single greenhouse at a very specific area of México so Idk if they are meant to have this previus experience with all kinds of eviroments or just this specific. If this resonates please explain me more about it



Tell me more, if you can?

I am conducting this experiment on the last of the fall truffles, Tuber uncinatum (a subvariant of T. aestium), will post pics soon but as of yet the jar is not exciting, just a jar with a buried truffle. I decided to leave the jar lid mostly cracked open but still covered for the rain, and relatively isolated. So air exchange, maybe small insects, but mostly isolated from surrounding area.

The truffle shop I went to did not have any winter truffle when I went, only the last of fall, so that's why the choice of T. Aestivum.

Edited by CreonAntigone (01/17/26 12:17 AM)

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Re: Pocket mycorrhizae experiment [Re: Blufuut180]
    #29457407 -

Blufuut180 said:
So I do not know much about truffles but I have spent a great deal of time researching and experimenting with Morchella. Recently I believe I have seen the "male" mycelium show up in one of my tubs. It is heavily intertwined with the initial larger vegetative growth and produced round chlamydospores. I was going to just write it off as mold but my buddy showed me this pic from a Chinese researcher that depicts what most certainly appears to be the same phenomenon.



macro view:


I think what is happening with Ascomycota is an initial formation of a multinuclear heterokaryon shortly after initial ascospore germination. Then once the right factors occur to signal reproduction time has arrived, the secondary mycelium emerges to do the fertilization in a wild display of some hot fungal sex.

TLDR: The 'male' nuclei hitches a ride in the female cytoplasm until its time to fuck.



See, this really helps explain something I observed in my culture. I had a culture of T. Aestivum in LC some years ago. After several transfers, I at one point noticed little black flecks appearing within the medium, which did not look like they were a mold or anything of the sort. They looked just like the same kind of truffle spores that enter the water when a truffle is ground up, which are ascospores. I thought initially they may be ascospores, though no obvious fruiting occurred. They were probably too big to be the normal conidia. It makes me sense though, now, to see them as chlamydospores.

What I wonder is, if such an occurrence is possible in culture, then is it possible fruiting could occur in pure culture? Because some of these backdrop things that are needed for fruiting occur. What would it take to push the process over the edge?

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Re: Pocket mycorrhizae experiment [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #29457414 -

If you scroll back through the morel cultivation thread there's pictures of what appears to be fruiting in pure culture on PDA of morchella americana (presumably, Reddit op said it was a yellow morel from Michigan so probably the same thing I am working with)

I'm sure it is possible with tuber as well it's just a matter of figuring it out. There's likely a trigger from the host trees or one of the microbes that inhabits the same habitat.

Do they grow well on standard agar recipes or do you need to get fancy with something like Modified Melin Norkans?


--------------------
Back when I was younger, I didn't have a clue, and come to think of it, I still doubt I do.



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Re: Pocket mycorrhizae experiment [Re: Blufuut180]
    #29457432 -

They are not picky, they grow fine on malt extract but I even get good results with just honey and water agar. Tuber species contain several beneficial yeasts and bacteria living within the fruiting body. If you take a section of the fruits that includes a little bit of the black outer bit called the peridium, which contains the greatest diversity of mycorrhizal yeasts, these beneficial yeasts get started too and help the tuber species grow. In some sense, what happens in a tree, the natural community between species, happens within the truffle itself and within the culture.

Ideally, you'd want to take a clone section from the inside of the truffle, starting with a section of the gleba, then include a part of the peridium which is not completely on the outside (to ensure you aren't cultivating the bacteria it was exposed to/touched). A section of just the gleba or white bit would be probably more of a 'pure culture', it'd include a lower diversity of other species, but I think the culture would be less vigorous and grow slower.

This article is where I learned that there are different communities of microbes that live within different parts of the fruit body - greater species diversity in the peridium.

Here's another article:

Quote:
Considering that the species of TIF (truffle inhabiting fungi) so far observed or isolated from Tuber ascomata, mainly in the European species, are 46, 16 yeasts, and 30 filamentous fungi.



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Re: Pocket mycorrhizae experiment [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #29458132 -

Wow that is wild, whole ecosystem in a single organism. Fascinating!


--------------------
Back when I was younger, I didn't have a clue, and come to think of it, I still doubt I do.



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Re: Pocket mycorrhizae experiment [Re: Blufuut180]
    #29458368 -

Blufuut180 said:
Wow that is wild, whole ecosystem in a single organism. Fascinating!



And the most interesting part is they actually produce aroma! In culture I've experienced smells of a variety of sorts. From one culture of T. aestivum, multiple fruitbody clones, the liquid cultures smelled like a hint of garlic and black pepper. A T. Melanosporum culture I purchased smelled of strawberry, no joke.

Garlic was the predominant smell. Sometimes smell was mild, but always some. If there was no smell or sour smell, then that was a sure sign it was off, though not many contaminated.

I even tried a series of inoculations in the kitchen with unsterilized honey and water - in which 5 cultures formed, all of which looked clean to me, no off smell at all, many distinct truffle smells in the cultures. I figure there are so many different yeasts in it that it can just get started with sugar and water, since the yeasts will start fermenting immediately and prepare the culture for the ascomycete. Unlike a mushroom, which grows slow, it outruns contaminants since yeasts grow faster even than molds.

Sadly I did not keep all my cultures when I was moving, and I do not have a truffle culture right now. But I'm working on it using the other half of the fruit body I purchased, from which I took a clone. I'm beginning to think merely truffle spores and water would be a fine way to start a culture - to grind the truffle up but in a very large volume of water, such that all you see are black flecks of spores. No added sugar so it doesn't feed potential contams, but the media gets nutrients from those present in the fruit body itself, and that generated by relationship with the establishing yeast colonies.

It was said the french method of truffle culture from the 1800s was to get the spores into water by grinding, and then dip plants into the water - which is just a way to expose plants to spores, maybe, but then why would they start it in water first? I think with this species, a small culture is formed when you just get spore slurry into water. In fact when I tried some jars with simply water and truffle spores, a very thin culture formed, but no contaminants.

At one point I had a business idea: cultivate strains of truffles based on their aroma, and then isolate these aromas (for example, by using extraction of the aromas from the cultures, to become a packageable scent). I found out, however, that some guy already has a patent for this - he specifically cultivates the bacteria and yeast in the peridium, which are centrally involved in making the scent of truffles, and uses some kind of oil extraction. Interesting stuff!

https://patents.google.com/patent/EP2448430A1/en

But the only part where I'd disagree with him is, I don't think one should put flavor precursors in the medium, as he does. Truffles are already great natural producers of scents, which is part of their life strategy (to encourage creatures to find it, to spread its spores). I think if you added a precursor, the flavor may not taste the same as natural truffles, but then again it'd still be better than what passes as 'artificial truffle flavor' from a lab. But what would be better is strain selection - find the best smelling truffle culture and isolate that one and extract from that one. From the same fruitbody, the same genetics, I took multiple clones and they all smelled a little different. So the genetics have the potential to produce many flavors with different starts of the cutlures.

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Re: Pocket mycorrhizae experiment [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #29574168 -





An explosion of life! The small cutting of hazelnut I tried to put in died, seemingly rejected or parasitized by the truffle fungus - it was covered in black growth. Or is it possible it died from cold or never rooted at all. But either way, in it's place has appeared so much life! About 4 species of moss at least, some algae growing on the side, also many seedlings of various plants.

I attempted to keep moisture to a minimum through a few interventions - keeping a rock drainage layer and pouring it out if there was too much of it. But after I drained it and then more water entered the drainage layer the next day, I stopped adding or removing water. I expect it won't need more water until deep summer, it retains the water extremely well.

You might think, 'well this could be the result in any moist jar of soil, and so what supports the presence of truffles? Well, under the plants the soil developed a thick tar-like surface, as you can see in the photos. The black I think is condia of truffles. I guess I can't say for sure. But you can see sections that form into black balls on top of the jar, and it hasn't impeded the growth of plants in there at all.

I don't plan to plant anything more in the jar..
What is growing now will already be better suited to partner with the fungus, owing to that it already is growing near it in this jar.

Edited by CreonAntigone (05/11/26 09:39 PM)

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Re: Pocket mycorrhizae experiment [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #29575331 -

I would try rooting the cuttings first in a substrate that isn't inoculated or even just water. I've tried to bonsai a few plants and going straight to soil doesn't work well for me.


--------------------
Back when I was younger, I didn't have a clue, and come to think of it, I still doubt I do.



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Re: Pocket mycorrhizae experiment [Re: Blufuut180]
    #29576319 -

Yeah I think I need to use plants that are at least a few months old, or maybe if I started with acrons and introduced only a few spores while the tree was germinating.

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Re: Pocket mycorrhizae experiment [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #29580190 -

If you are impatient you can probably find somewhere with abundant 2-3 year old trees for the taking. Somewhere with loose soil you can dig up a little tree if you are careful not to remove the tap root. Free bonsai


--------------------
Back when I was younger, I didn't have a clue, and come to think of it, I still doubt I do.



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Re: Pocket mycorrhizae experiment [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #29627856 -

Apparent parasitism can now be observed in the jar, mycelium colonizing the soil and growing on a living clover plant that came up during this experiment.







I don't this is due to excess moisture. Actually I've been keeping a tight lid on moisture, and it doesn't go above the rock drainage layer at the bottom or touch the soil directly. I think rather that a large truffle piece was a large amount of inoculant, letting the fungus (and the partner species growing within it) overwhelm the plants inside the jar, which are small in comparison. A piece about the size of 1/5th a truffle was buried in the soil. It would be like if a truffle the size of a small car was found under a tree, the tree couldn't do well. But in nature it is kept in balance, and for the most part it seems truffles only parasitize grasses around trees, not the trees themselves.

Maybe the clover can pull through. It should be adapted to the truffle somewhat. I might consider pulling it out of there, since it has shown that it can manage to produce healthy leaves in spite of the fungus.

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