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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: vicepope] * 1
    #29624216 -

Oh I'm seeing a lot of capitalist realism in this thread.

Quote:
the widespread sense that not only is capitalism the only viable political and economic system, but also that it is now impossible even to imagine a coherent alternative to it


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalist_Realism

Which is a critique by the way of our capitalist biases and lack of imagination, it's not a prescription!

Mostly I just wanted to subscribe though, since this thread is seeing a lot of posts.

:dancingshroom:


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: vicepope] * 1
    #29624223 -

vicepope said:
Blue Cthulhu said:
You could end all debt and re-set the parasitic economic system


How?


Could start by balancing the budget and paying off the national debt. Seems like common sense that going into debt should be a policy for emergencies, or certain long term investments, but not as a general rule of life. I don’t know why this doesn’t get talked about anymore except by a small handful of politicians.


Also, there’s no reason we should have trillionaires. That is such an obscene amount of wealth that it can only lead to further corruption of the entire economic-political system. When most people are struggling to afford groceries and rent/mortgage, it’s not hard to imagine a trillionaire exploiting that desperation by buying votes, massive amounts of property, utility companies, a vertical monopoly, etc

Therefore, taxing the shit out of billionaires and trillionaires is necessary if for no other reason than to limit their fucking power


--------------------
All communication
is pattern
and rhythm

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: tree frog]
    #29624325 -

tree frog said:
Oh I'm seeing a lot of capitalist realism in this thread.

Quote:
the widespread sense that not only is capitalism the only viable political and economic system, but also that it is now impossible even to imagine a coherent alternative to it


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalist_Realism

Which is a critique by the way of our capitalist biases and lack of imagination, it's not a prescription!

Mostly I just wanted to subscribe though, since this thread is seeing a lot of posts.

:dancingshroom:


Are you referring to my posts by chance? Because I'd like to rebuttal if so.

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: Icon]
    #29624339 -

islandsss said:
This thread:

If we do anything different something bad might happen!


Nah, I skimmed the last few pages and caught this one.  And Mark Fisher wrote a philosophical text about this tendency.

It wasn't directed at anyone's position in particular, I really did just want to follow the thread so I can join the conversation.  And I haven't been, that's why I wasn't engaging anyone in particular.

But also I'm on my phone and don't remember which button it is.

So I figured I would add something of substance beyond a :popcorn: emoji.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

Edited by tree frog (07/14/26 03:11 PM)

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: tree frog] * 4
    #29624344 -

tree frog said:
Oh I'm seeing a lot of capitalist realism in this thread.

Quote:
the widespread sense that not only is capitalism the only viable political and economic system, but also that it is now impossible even to imagine a coherent alternative to it


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalist_Realism

Which is a critique by the way of our capitalist biases and lack of imagination, it's not a prescription!

Mostly I just wanted to subscribe though, since this thread is seeing a lot of posts.

:dancingshroom:


It’s no wonder the author of that book killed himself.

For most people, it’s easier to imagine the end of the planet than it is to imagine the end of capitalism.

Commerce has existed for millennia! Capitalism for ~200 years. It’s actually not very hard to imagine an economic system that’s democratic, rather than allowing a handful of pedophiles to dictate how everyone lives.


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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #29624361 -

He also imagined Acid Communism.

Unfortunately depression and despair took him before he finished expanding on it.

20 minute theory podcast on key concepts in Fisher's work.

is=h-XyM8C_IEv6RLhd

Quote:
Adam takes us through the aspects of melancholia and depressive psychology in Capitalist Realism, its psychological and social mechanisms, and how the question of the geopolitics of Capitalist Realism and neoliberalism shifted in Fisher's analysis from a Cold War East-West focus to one that centres the imperialist destruction of communism in Latin America. Reflecting on contemporary social movements such as anti-raids groups and school strikes, Fisher's optimism for a post-capitalist desire is illustrated through the reframing of Capitalist Realism in Acid Communism, a project which reaffirms that all consciousness is malleable and the site of an active struggle, a struggle haunted by the spectre of a world that could be free.



--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #29624377 -

When you say democratic, do you mean more like participatory budgeting for big projects, or full replacement of markets?

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #29624380 -

The world population has also grown by ~600% in the past 200 years. Wildlife population has decreased by 73% since 1970. That's nearly 1.5% per year.

Capitalism needs to end, that part is easy to imagine. Democratic socialism is easy to imagine. Saving the planet is what I'm struggling to comprehend, since we have 50-200 years of ecological debt to address. Whatever fiscal policy changes we make isn't going to make that go away. And we're not going to gain control over night, this movement could still take decades to come to fruition.

What do you think Ecstatic? Is the challenge and strategy no more complicated whether it's 1.5 billion, 9 billion or 15 billion people? Can we still create a better world, even after capitalism has turned the planet into a ticking time bomb? To what extent should American democratic socialists feel responsible to address international suffering and catastrophe?

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #29624387 -

The Ecstatic said:
Commerce has existed for millennia! Capitalism for ~200 years. It’s actually not very hard to imagine an economic system that’s democratic, rather than allowing a handful of pedophiles to dictate how everyone lives.


And for clarification on my own position, I don't believe I have a privileged perspective on what the future should look like.

But I don't believe that what we've been doing for the last 200 years is sustainable.

So, I hope we can collectively imagine and create something healthier than capitalism.  And my partner and I both are supporting the DSA.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: Icon] * 1
    #29624398 -

Icon said:
Saving the planet is what I'm struggling to comprehend, since we have 50-200 years of ecological debt to address. Whatever fiscal policy changes we make isn't going to make that go away. And we're not going to gain control over night, this movement could still take decades to come to fruition.



I also struggle a lot with this.

I think the planet will heal in time, but it's going to be a massive amount of suffering with the way things are going.  Not just for human beings, but all life on our world.

And it certainly sounds like the tech capitalists/fascists are content to hide in bunkers or move to Mars while the rest of us suffer.

I don't know what to do, other than mutual aid and voting as far left as makes sense.

If the tides turn towards revolution, I'll support the struggle.

And I also would love to hear Ecstatic's thoughts.  I'm still remembering your comment to vicepope, join us brother, and we'll build a beautiful future together.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: tree frog] * 1
    #29624408 -

I think you're probably just being absurdly optimistic.  There isn't going to be any turning it around or building a beautiful future.  Humans aren't wired that way. There will always be scarcity because human greed has no limits.  The good news is that we will eventually be extinct and the planet will keep on spinning for another few billion years.  It will be uninhabitable, but it'll be here.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #29624438 -

I have a kid and I'm attached to imagining a future for him.  One that's not a dystopian capitalist wet dream.  Though I confess, that is most likely.

So, my partner and I will support the DSA.  And are planning to join their meetings when she gets back from seeing her family.

In the meantime, I did find a local DSA podcast.

Edit:  And I do take a lot of comfort in the long view.  That's what I meant by the planet will heal in time.  Fungi etc will hopefully be here after we're extinct.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

Edited by tree frog (07/14/26 05:56 PM)

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: ballsalsa]
    #29624460 -

ballsalsa said:
ashfiken said:
ballsalsa said:
They replaced him with his sister


Its like a monarchy! Jus pass it to the nearest relative lmao.
I guess its just for a few months but how lovely


Well, she'll be the incumbent in the next election and incumbent senators almost always win their elections so she's probably in for life if she wants it


If no other repub steps up. I guess so


--------------------
hmm...

"I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked."

"life isn't worth living without the threat of death"

"I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be"

"nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters"

My Trade List

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: cubedryeguy] * 3
    #29624464 -

cubedryeguy said:
When you say democratic, do you mean more like participatory budgeting for big projects, or full replacement of markets?


Think about it like this:

When people got tired of monarchy, they decided that everyone should have a say in how the government operates. Hence (for all its flaws), democracy.

It seems like a no-brainer. Of course we should all have a say in how the government functions! It’s absurd that we ever allowed a handful of inbred cretins complete control over it, especially given their interests are diametrically opposed to our own.

Now apply that same logic to the economy.

Markets don’t necessarily need to go away, but this wouldn’t be an overnight change anyway, the same way political democracy wasn’t (isn’t). A good start would be nationalizing major industries and services that are necessary for the function of a healthy society: agriculture, telecommunications, transportation, defense, energy, healthcare.


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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: Enlil]
    #29624465 -

Enlil said:
I think you're probably just being absurdly optimistic.  There isn't going to be any turning it around or building a beautiful future.  Humans aren't wired that way. There will always be scarcity because human greed has no limits.  The good news is that we will eventually be extinct and the planet will keep on spinning for another few billion years.  It will be uninhabitable, but it'll be here.


As much as id like to dismiss tfrog myself, why chime in w the nihilistic pleasantry??
when atleast a Decent conversation was being had.
What if we couldd vote to preserve that level of greed provides for the basics of the rest?


--------------------
hmm...

"I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked."

"life isn't worth living without the threat of death"

"I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be"

"nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters"

My Trade List

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: ashfiken]
    #29624474 -

I mean, in senate races the incumbent wins around 80% of the time and they have 6 year terms.  Plus, the party typically isn't going to support a primary challenger

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #29624477 -

Abolishing the Senate would go a long way towards human progress.


--------------------

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: ballsalsa]
    #29624481 -

ballsalsa said:
I mean, in senate races the incumbent wins around 80% of the time and they have 6 year terms.  Plus, the party typically isn't going to support a primary challenger


I dont think the incumbent is a non politician relative, hailed in for the last few months all too often, but i didnt discount it in the slightest.
Wilder shit has come true


--------------------
hmm...

"I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked."

"life isn't worth living without the threat of death"

"I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be"

"nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters"

My Trade List

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #29624485 -

The Ecstatic said:
Abolishing the Senate would go a long way towards human progress.


Ill take gettin rid of the baby boomers for 2000 alex


--------------------
hmm...

"I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked."

"life isn't worth living without the threat of death"

"I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be"

"nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters"

My Trade List

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: tree frog] * 1
    #29624499 -

tree frog said:
The Ecstatic said:
Commerce has existed for millennia! Capitalism for ~200 years. It’s actually not very hard to imagine an economic system that’s democratic, rather than allowing a handful of pedophiles to dictate how everyone lives.


And for clarification on my own position, I don't believe I have a privileged perspective on what the future should look like.

But I don't believe that what we've been doing for the last 200 years is sustainable.

So, I hope we can collectively imagine and create something healthier than capitalism.  And my partner and I both are supporting the DSA.


It’s been truly heartening to see the growth of the organization. My local chapter of about 8 people sat together at a bar in 2018 when AOC won. I remember thinking it wouldn’t really amount to much, and the purpose of paying dues and volunteering would just be mutual aid-related.

But my god did the democrats absolutely fumble handling the Trump era. All they had to do was pass like a public option and they would’ve rendered the Squad useless. And now we have cadre members in Congressional races where tweets like “Lenin was cool as hell” don’t hurt their poll numbers. Turns out, you can’t just increase quarterly profits by 5% at the expense of the social fabric for eternity.


--------------------

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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