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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Chiron098] * 2
    #29595948 -

I'm glad you stuck out this thread, did the test, and reported back the results.

:manofapproval:


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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: UnderNose]
    #29597475 -

An air fryer is designed to cook a bird all the way through, rendering a crispy outside, yet retaining all the juicyness and moisture. I do not enjoy dry bird as much.

A dime makes a pretty good screwdriver in a pinch. A screwdriver already is a screwdriver.

One time I just set up a bunch of screens with bricks between them and set a space heater with a small fan under the stack. It worked great.

I am sure you could dial an air fryer... Work with what you have, if that's what you've got.


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Question everything, it's very responsive.

Culture Storage

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Nichrome] * 2
    #29597589 -

I once did a flagstone job with a ryobi circular saw i put a diamond blade on.  Worked great until the bearings got all full of sand and the saw took a shit.  A stone saw works great too.

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: UnderNose]
    #29600595 -

i like science, thus experimenting myself is very fun for me. and if it helps or entertain someone, even better.

also, after all this debate i kept thinking and researching about shroom dehydration. and i think i am way less skeptical about the no heat dehydration.

i will try to condense all this thread in this comment very briefly:

first, explain the enzymes: fresh shrooms have three relevant enzymes. Psip, Psil and Psik(that i will call destruction, oxidation and repair enzyme respectively, just illustrative names).

when the shroom is dehydrating the psip (destruction) enzyme is the worse. it turns psilocybin into the unstable psilocin.

and psik, the repair enzyme, turns psilocin back to psilocybin.

now explaining the reasoning from both sides.

the pro heat argument:

psik enzyme(repair) needs energy(ATP) to work, without water atp is not produced. thus denaturing all enzymes is better to remove this flaw, as it also removes the destroying enzyme.

the anti heat argument:

denaturing enzymes will remove the psik enzyme, thus is bad, and heat is a catalyst to hydrolysis, oxidation, and the own stability of psilocybin.

and now i actually agree with the later even after defending heat dehydration all this thread. why?

because both psik(repair) and psip(destruction) enzymes need water to function well. psik because needs atp, and psip because is a phosphatase enzyme, that works by hydrolysis.

when the shroom gets to a point where water is low(not cracker dry, just low amount) both enzymes will stop to work greatly.

thus heat would be only a "noise", it don't add nothing.

my theory also said that the vacuole would lose its integrity by plasmolysis during dehydration, but when that happens, the viscosity of the water is higher. which means that:

when there's more water to cause hydrolysis, psip will be stored in the vacuole, not touching psylocibin too much, and when that happens, it will be a slower process than i thought, because there will be less, and more viscous water than i thought.

so, explaining it briefly:

when the shroom is full of water, the repair enzyme and the destruction enzyme will counter each other, meaning it will keep "balance"(or it will be better for the psik enzyme, as studies and logic shows).

when the shroom gets to a point of low amount of water both enzymes will greatly reduce their functions. viscosity of the water will be higher and the sheer amount of water would be lower.

what this means is that we don't need to worry about enzymes, and that heat will be just one more degradation factor into this equation, so it must be avoided.

thus not using heat would be the smart move according to this theory.

but waiting for Rev to do the experiment is the best at the moment to end this debate and see some useful outcome data.

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Chiron098] * 1
    #29601552 -

Sorry what is the experiment? I have an air fryer with a dehydrator function I just don't really understand what I'm testing, mine can go very low temp allegedly (I've used the proof feature on it).

I can cut the same mushroom in half (no clue how I'd identify it afterwards). I bought one of those test kits so I can try to find relatively the best way to minimize variables 

Am I supposed to do 8 hours at 200f or something on air fryer? vs 158 at 24 hours?

I can do lower temp as well, but I don't feel comfortable running an air fryer all night or if I'm out. It won't be bullet proof but maybe its something?

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Zef]
    #29601621 -

ReverendMyc proposed to do a test in different conditions to find how temperature would affect shrooms in the dehydration process.

if you also want to test it yourself and post it here, what would be very appreciated , i would say to you to cut the shroom in half lengthwise, one half in the air fryer 80C, other half in the room temperature fan + silica, to compare both extreme opposite sides.

i can't say exactly the time, because it can have a huge variation, just remember that more heat=less time. so you would need to monitor it. you also need to put something above the shroom so it doesn't fly inside the air fryer.

if i had to say the time it will take, i doubt it will take more than 6 hours on the air fryer, and the standard for fan + silica is 24-48 hours in the fan + 24 hours in silica. it have this huge variation with the fan because it depends on the humidity of the place you live.

i would say for you to put 60 minutes on the air fryer and see how it goes. if it is still very wet, repeat it. is very important to not let the shroom sit on heat too much.

the one's i tested got cracker dry in 30 minutes in the air fryer 80C, but my air fryer don't have a dehydration mode, so it can be different, and I'm pretty sure the temperature got way more than 80C, so i don't have any idea of how long it would take with a good air fryer with precise temperature control.

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Chiron098] * 1
    #29601623 -

Is that an HPLC unit in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?


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Question everything, it's very responsive.

Culture Storage

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Nichrome] * 1
    #29601749 -

HPLC: high pistachio, low chicken


--------------------
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The 7 Edicts of Mushroom Cultivation as Decreed by Smellyhobbit

:kodama:


Anyone can get a canopy. But can you get what you want?

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Smellyhobbit]
    #29601751 -

I thought it was a heat potency loss conversation

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: UnderNose]
    #29601810 -

I keep scouring university surplus sales for an HPLC (Hyper Proper Lab Checker) for under $100, but they always seem to be in the $10,000s. I bet they will come down in price in time, just like iPhones didn't.


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Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: ReverendMyc] * 1
    #29601989 -

Okay I got the process started, but just kind of winged it on my lunch break as quickly as possible. Control group are just going into a dehydrator at 158F for 24 hours, test group are going into my air fryer at 200F (highest dry setting) for 6 hours (I'm checking it every 2 hours).

Reason for this is that I don't really want to do that other drying method, and I don't have fans etc that would work for this. Additionally, I feel like it wouldn't be that great if it can just replicate a dehydrator at 165 for 24 hours - what would be the point in that? I also put a scuffed second layer in there ontop of the default pan because most people would want to stack it up.

Airfryer went in ~46 grams wet with some of the runts of the litter since I don't want to waste much, so at 2, 4, and 6 hours I'll check what the weight is and see if it's going down still. I have a cosori 6 qt 69 in 1 air fryer.

Control is about ~229 grams wet

My phone is suggesting that it's around 170F at the tray, and around 211F at the fan.

I'd like to think I'm only mostly an idiot.







Update Edit: After 2 hours they seem slightly burnt and crumbled and I had to pick up some bits that fell through to the bottom. So I'm stopping it here I'm letting them cool for a few minutes before throwing in a jar with silica till tomorrow. It's looking like its ~3.9 grams from 46.






Edited by Zef (06/11/26 04:24 PM)

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: ReverendMyc] * 1
    #29602354 -

ReverendMyc said:
I keep scouring university surplus sales for an HPLC (Hyper Proper Lab Checker) for under $100, but they always seem to be in the $10,000s. I bet they will come down in price in time, just like iPhones didn't.


You can get something decent on Gbay for like 6k. You can get NMR, GCMS, MS, HPLC MS, HPLC Preparative, IR, polarimeters, and all sorts of other goodies on the bay.

Most of those things new are around 40k for small baseline gear.


--------------------
Question everything, it's very responsive.

Culture Storage

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Nichrome] * 2
    #29604191 -

I finally got some time to test the concentration of airfried with fan at lowest setting 200F for 2 hours, comparing it to 158 for 24 hours in a dehydrator.

Obviously this is a N of 1 for each, and to be taken with a spoonful of salt but vial A was the airfried while vial B was the dehydrated. It's hard to tell from the photo, but vial B looked slightly darker in color when compared to vial A. I'd estimate that Vial A was ~0.6% while vial B was ~0.8%.

Given this, it's possible that if you have a airfryer with a dehydrator mode and you want to spend time optimizing conditions you may be able to dehydrate to a similar level as a dehydrator.


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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Zef]
    #29604342 -

that's very cool, thanks for sharing!

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Chiron098] * 2
    #29607947 -

I've got a lot of respect for people that post experiments that disprove their own hypothesis and even more for people that can publicly change their mind in light of new evidence, so kudos to you for doing just that.

You said you wanted to discuss potency loss from cutting the fruits. If you imagine the area of the exposed internal surface of a split fruit I'd say it would be about 20 to 30% of the total surface area of the intact fruit.

So the potency loss from the exposed internal surface area combined with blowing hot oxygen over the damaged hyphae for hours is responsible for the potency loss. This is likely exacerbated by large amounts of PsiK and ATP being used up to stop the substantial blueing reaction from spreading through the rest of the fruit so there would be limited amounts left available to protect the rest of the psilocybin content during the drying process.


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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Dave Bennett]
    #29608517 -

yep, that's what i thought. i didn't understand at that time about you saying that the skin protects the shroom from oxygen better than the inside of the shroom.

based on the new theory i proposed, it is also counterproductive to cut it to reduce the time of exposure, as time of exposure is not very much of a deal, as enzymes will counter each other and psip will only be a issue when there's not much of water left. so not much of a problem in the entire dehydration process.

now, why do you think that psilocybin will form polymorph A with low temperature dehydration? I've seen that it will probably be in an amorphous state, not a polymorph.

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Chiron098] * 1
    #29609647 -

No one knows what happens to the psilocybin as the fruits dry or even where it gets stored in the hyphae yet. Vacuole storage is hypothesised but has yet to be proven. I included the polymorph paper that found that low crystallisation temperatures resulted in the most stable form of psilocybin as I was making the case that research has demonstrated that heat increases the speed that the alkaloids degrade in fresh fruits, dry fungal powder, solution and in their pure crystal forms.

Elevated temperature drying could be causing more unstable Polymorph H to form in the fruits as they dry or increase the rate that psilocybin is dephosphorylated into psilocin or both.

If you think about it cubes naturally grow and fruit in temperatures up to and sometimes over 40C in the tropics and sub-tropics and still synthesise and accumulate psilocybin without any problems. And we know that removing the water from the fruits at sub zero temperatures results in the least loss of potency. And we also know potency is retained better at lower temperatures during storage. So how do people logically go from optimal sub zero drying to drying at full blast in a dehydrator and think that's the best way to dry the fruits?


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Edited by Dave Bennett (06/23/26 04:53 AM)

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Dave Bennett]
    #29615754 -

So regarding the requested derail into cube potency I think that the potency figures for most cube strains have to be taken with a big pinch of salt. For starters the potency of all the different strains has never been properly tested under controlled conditions. For meaningful results you'd have to ensure identical cultivation and drying conditions, the fruits would all need to be the same size, level of maturity and harvested at the same time, whole fruits would need to be homogenised for testing rather than cap or stipe samples and processing and test conditions would need to be identical. And outside a few research papers that have tested a handful of strains for potency under controlled conditions that's never happened.

So many things can affect potency during the grow and after harvest. The skill level of the grower, the choice of grain and bulk sub ingredients, environmental conditions, drying temperature, rough handling, storage conditions and the age of the sample, etc. which makes it really difficult to say for sure it's the genetics when it comes to potency differences between strains. Under controlled conditions there was only around 0.5% difference between the highest and lowest potency strains that were tested and you'll often see the same strains giving wildly different results in the Cup competitions including Enigma which being a clone culture should be producing identical results if it wasn't for all the uncontrolled variables I've mentioned above.

The psilocybin gene cluster is virtually identical across the entire cultivated cube population apart from high potency strains like Penis Envy and it's variants so I think the variation in potency between strains may be just as much structural as genetic.

We know that potency varies between stipe and cap. Is that because they produce different amounts of psilocybin or are the hyphae producing identical amounts of psilocybin and the structure of the cap and the stipe tissues are different? Hyphae inflate in the stipe and are tightly packed in the cap and as potency is measured in mg/100mg the number of psilocybin producing hyphae in a sample could make a lot of difference to HPLC results. And in the real world people eat whole fruits so things like stipe length, cap size and area of gill tissues is going to affect the potency between different strains. So for accurate potency testing you'd need to homogenise the whole dried fruits of all the different strains for the test sample.

Similarly, because the albino strains can't produce melanin it means that their hyphal walls are thinner so more hyphae would be packed into the 100mg dry matter sample which would result in an increase in potency when tested compared to pigmented strains. 

And we know that psilocybin accumulates in the fruits to maturity so could Enigma's higher potency just be down to the fact that it's hyphae are tightly packed resulting in a form of very dense fungal tissue and and it accumulates psilocybin over weeks rather than days?

TLDR. In my opinion, the potency differences between strains as we understand them today probably has more to do with the skill of the grower, environmental conditions, the structural form of the fruits and post harvest treatment than genetics.


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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Dave Bennett]
    #29615904 -

Quote:

TLDR. In my opinion, the potency differences between strains as we understand them today probably has more to do with the skill of the grower, environmental conditions, the structural form of the fruits and post harvest treatment than genetics.


:thumbup:


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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Dave Bennett]
    #29616117 -

thanks for the comment, but unfortunately it was not so helpful, as i already knew most of that. i know that 95% of cube strains don't have much of a difference, but as you yourself said, there are some that can be different from the norm, like PE.

of course i wasn't expecting some set in stone strains that are always better than others, but i thought you would have some different point of view to add or would give me some direction, as you probably have more practical and theoretical experience and knowledge than me.

i will give some context for people who are watching this thread here, just so the change of topic doesn't sound strange all of a sudden, and then explain some of my reasoning and what i think about this.

in another thread i asked dave what strain he would think has the best "substrate to alkaloid production ratio". what this means is producing the most alkaloids with the least amount of substrate. here's a comparison:

imagine after harvesting a tub of cambodian you get 160g dried. cambodian generally has 0.7% total alkaloids on average, according to some tests i found.

meanwhile, from the same tub of PE you get 90g dried, but PE generally has 1.4% or more alkaloids. in the end, PE wins because it produced more alkaloids using the same tub.

now, the questions i had were:

"there is a balance between high yield and high potency?"

another question was:

"what seems to matter more in the substrate to alkaloid ratio, total yield (all the flushes combined in dry weight) or individual fruit potency?"

what i found out after doing some research is that most cultivators say that average strains generally yield more, meanwhile, high potency strains take more time and yield less. when i talk about yield, i am talking about all flushes combined in dry weight.

and after more research, i found out that probably high potency strains would be better, because they seem to have double the alkaloids of an average strain most of the time.

what this means is that an average strain would need to yield at least double what these strains yield to beat them, which i find very unlikely.

this can also make sense if you speculate that, in higher yield, low potency fruits, most of the nutrients are being used for hyphal wall production instead of alkaloid production.

one specific species has also piqued my interest: Psilocybe ochraceocentrata. this new South African species seems to have been confused with a cubensis strain under the names "african transkei" and "natal super strength" for some time. in hyphae cups, the NSS strain generally can beat strains like APE and Enigma, and in cultivation reports, people say it yields like normal cubes and is easier to cultivate. in ingestion reports, people always say it also belongs to the most potent "cubes" they have eaten.

what do you think about it, Dave?

Edited by Chiron098 (07/03/26 03:49 AM)

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