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Re: UK Crime increasing? Decreasing? Both.... [Re: Xlea321]
    #2920486 - 07/23/04 09:56 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

what figures are you talking about?

the general decrease in crime over the past 9 years?

certainly you must realize that there are many factors which influence the crime rate other than whether or not guns are legal. even if the drop was only in gun-related crime, or even total violent crime, this would still not extablish causation. in fact, we are talking about a decrease in all types of crime, which weakens your position even further:

"The decline in some categories is quite staggering: car thefts, burglaries, domestic violence and assaults on people who are known to each other have all dropped by about half, according to the British Crime Survey (BCS). In every category of crime - including violent crime - there has been a decrease, the BCS found." (italics mine)

it is fairly clear that if crime is decreasing, it is part of a larger trend. banning guns didn't make it harder to steal a car or hit your spouse.

Edited by mushmaster (07/23/04 10:29 PM)

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Re: UK Crime increasing? Decreasing? Both.... [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2920489 - 07/23/04 09:57 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I've never seen in public besides shooting ranges and when we go camping.

funny, neither have i. something tells me alex hasn't seen a gun ever, but that's just speculation.

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Re: UK Crime increasing? Decreasing? Both.... [Re: Xlea321]
    #2920587 - 07/23/04 10:20 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

hmm. looks like there are some figures which do not support your position at all.

according to this page at http://www.statistics.gov.uk/ , gun crime reported to police recorded at 14,424 in 1997, the year the handgun ban went into effect. the next year, it was 15,778. the year after that, it had risen to 18,716, and for 2000-2001, it was 19,457.

this news article from the BBC: Handgun crime 'up' despite ban has the same thing to say:

"A new study suggests the use of handguns in crime rose by 40% in the two years after the weapons were banned... It also said there was no link between high levels of gun crime and areas where there were still high levels of lawful gun possession.

Of the 20 police areas with the lowest number of legally held firearms, 10 had an above average level of gun crime.

And of the 20 police areas with the highest levels of legally held guns only two had armed crime levels above the average."

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Re: UK Crime increasing? Decreasing? Both.... [Re: Xlea321]
    #2920608 - 07/23/04 10:28 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

here's one from the washington post:

"Mobile Phone Shootings Shock Britain

...But a surge of murders, robberies and assaults involving guns in London, including the mugging of a teen-age girl who was shot in the head for a mobile phone, has shaken Britain's traditional attitude that guns are other peoples' problems.

According to figures released by the London police, muggings involving a firearm have risen by 53 percent, from 435 during the six months ending November 2000 to 667 during the same period last year.

The number of murders with a gun in London jumped by 90 percent during the same time, from 16 to 30. That's a far cry from the 640 murders ? many gun-related ? in New York alone last year, but that figure is way down from the peak of 2,262 in 1992.

Street crime in Britain's capital has also skyrocketed in recent months, with 19,248 robberies reported between September and November 2001, up more than 100 percent from the 8,614 robberies during the same period the previous year...

...Hand guns were outlawed in Britain in 1997 after the massacre of 16 children and a teacher at a primary school in Dunblane, Scotland. Some 160,000 handguns were surrendered to police.

Dave Rodgers, vice chairman of the Metropolitan Police Federation, said the ban made little difference to the number of guns in the hands of criminals. According to a recent survey, the number of crimes in which a handgun was reported increased nationally from 2,648 in 1997-98 to 3,685 in 1999-2000.

"The underground supply of guns does not seem to have dried up at all," he said. "

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Re: UK Crime increasing? Decreasing? Both.... [Re: ]
    #2920615 - 07/23/04 10:30 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Can't wait for Alex to point out how what you've posted is spurious.

?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: UK Crime increasing? Decreasing? Both.... [Re: ]
    #2920692 - 07/23/04 10:48 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

States with right-to-carry laws have lower overall violent crime rates, compared to states without right-to-carry laws. In states whose laws respect the citizen's right-to-carry guns for self defense the total violent crime is 13% lower, homicide is 3% lower, robbery is 26% lower and aggravated assault is 7% lower. (Data: Crime in the United States 1996, FBI Uniform Crime Reports)

Right-to-carry license holders are more law-abiding than the general public. In Florida, for example, the firearm crime rate among license holders, annually averaging only several crimes per 100,000 licensees, is a fraction of the rate for the state as a whole. Since the carry law went into effect in 1987, less than 0.02% of Florida carry permits have been revoked because of gun crimes committed by license holders. (Florida Dept. of State) Research reports printed in "More Guns, Less Crime", John R. Lott, Jr., the John M. Olin Visiting Law and Economics Fellow at the University of Chicago, examined data ranging from gun ownership polls to FBI crime rate data for each of the nation's 3.045 counties over a 1977 too 1994 time span. Lott's research amounts to the largest data set that has ever been put together for any study of crime, let alone for the study of gun control. Among Prof. Lott's findings:

? While arrest and conviction rates being the most important factors influencing crime.... non discretionary concealed-handgun laws are also important, and they are the most cost-effective means of reducing crime.

? Non discretionary or "shall-issue" carry permit laws reduce violent crime for two reasons. They reduce the number of attempted crimes because criminals can't tell which potential victims are armed, being able to defend themselves. Secondly, victims who do have guns are in a much better position to defend themselves. Concealed carry laws deter crime because they increase the criminal's risk of doing business.

? States with the largest increases in gun ownership also have the largest decreases in violent crime. And, it is high crime, urban areas, and neighborhoods with large minority populations that experience the greatest reductions in violent crime when law-abiding citizens are allowed to carry concealed handguns.

? There is a strong relationship between the number of law-abiding citizens with permits and the crime rate--as more people obtain permits there is a greater decline in violent crime rates.

? For each additional year that a concealed handgun law is in effect the murder rate declines by 3%, rape by 2% and robberies by more than 2%.

? Murder rates decline when either more women or more men carry concealed handguns, but the effect is especially pronounced for women. An additional woman carrying a concealed handgun reduces the murder rate for women by about three to four times more than an additional man carrying a concealed handgun reduces the rate for men.

? The benefits of concealed handguns are not limited to those who carry them. Others get a free ride from the crime fighting efforts of their fellow citizens.

? The benefits of right-to-carry are not limited to people who share the characteristics of those who carry the guns. The most obvious example of this "halo" effect, is the drop in murders of children following the adoption of non discretionary laws. Arming older people not only may provide direct protection to these children, but also causes criminals to leave the area.

? The increased presence of concealed handguns "does not raise the number of accidental deaths or suicides from handguns."


Be all and you'll be to end all

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