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OfflineTao
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Handguns vs. Rifles
    #2420308 - 03/11/04 08:14 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

This is a subpoint of the "Should a citizen have the right too..." thread that was getting a bit too long and multi-dimensional.

It seems to me that handguns are really used for sneaking around and concealment which is most helpful for robbers and murderers. It seems like a rifle or something can be used for protection at home (if youre worried about close range, get a baseball bat). and as for protection against tyranny, a rifle is only going to be more powerful than handguns. If you interpret the 2nd amendment to be protection from governmental tyranny, why do we need handguns?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Handguns vs. Rifles [Re: Tao]
    #2420352 - 03/11/04 08:26 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Handguns are usually used for self-defense(or for illegal purposes). Rifles are usually used by hunters. I think that rifle-owners usually know a bit more about gun safety than handgun owners, who often tend to be paranoid about the dangers that the news tells them are lurking in every corner.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Re: Handguns vs. Rifles [Re: Tao]
    #2420361 - 03/11/04 08:28 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
It seems to me that handguns are really used for sneaking around and concealment which is most helpful for robbers and murderers.




If that were true, statistical proof would indicate that the majority of handguns sold were used for murders adn robberies, do you have that proof to back up your conjecture? Of course not.  My handgun goes with me most places, and I know that if someone tried to rob me with a weapon, I'd bring it out and even the score.  I also enjoy just shooting them.
Quote:


It seems like a rifle or something can be used for protection at home (if youre worried about close range, get a baseball bat).  and as for protection against tyranny, a rifle is only going to be more powerful than handguns.




If pistols are used for "murder", and we are fighting tyrants, wouldn't we want to "murder" people?  BTW, a shotgun or a pistol would work great for home defense, a rifle would massivly overpenetrate.
Quote:


If you interpret the 2nd amendment to be protection from governmental tyranny, why do we need handguns?



To rob and murder the tyrants with :smile:

I interpret the 2nd amendmant to protect the rights of citizens who haven't commited crimes to possess guns.  I enjoy shooting a pistol. Why should that be taken from me because of some law-breakers?

Also, if I wanted to commit a crime with a firearm, I wouldn't select a pistol as my frst weapon.  A rifle is much more effective in the hands of a person who is trained to use it.


My question, why aer you so interested in taking away the rights of law-abiding citizens?


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Re: Handguns vs. Rifles [Re: silversoul7]
    #2420375 - 03/11/04 08:30 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Handguns are usually used for self-defense(or for illegal purposes). Rifles are usually used by hunters. I think that rifle-owners usually know a bit more about gun safety than handgun owners, who often tend to be paranoid about the dangers that the news tells them are lurking in every corner.




Do you have any evidence supporting this? how many of your libbie college friends own either? None, I'm sure. Boy, I love conjecture based upon prejudice! Handgun owners are no more "paranoid" than people who take Karate. I don't own firearms just so I can shoot people, that isn't even a primary reason. I enjoy shooting, it's a very Zen activity.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Handguns vs. Rifles [Re: Tao]
    #2420408 - 03/11/04 08:36 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
(if youre worried about close range, get a baseball bat).



Ever tried to swing a baseball bat in a hallway? How effective would it be if your attacker is out of range of your swing but has a gun himself? Do you think criminals will turn in all their guns when the guns are deemed illegal?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Handguns vs. Rifles [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2420443 - 03/11/04 08:48 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Boy, I love conjecture based upon prejudice!



I guess you could call it prejudice, but I think it's more just reasonable assumptions about people based on what the guns are made for. You don't find many people using handguns when they're out hunting. Their primary purpose of handguns is supposed to be self-defense.

Quote:

Handgun owners are no more "paranoid" than people who take Karate.



Not a good comparison. Lots of people take karate cuz they always think some mugger's about to sneak out of the shadows and get them. The difference is people who take karate don't end up killing their spouse or family members by accident(well, not as often as handgun owners anyway).

Quote:

I don't own firearms just so I can shoot people, that isn't even a primary reason. I enjoy shooting, it's a very Zen activity.



Good for you. I'm sure there's many other people like that. All I'm saying is that I think people who buy guns for self-defense, as opposed to hunting or target practice, are less likely to know what they're doing.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Re: Handguns vs. Rifles [Re: silversoul7]
    #2420487 - 03/11/04 09:00 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I guess you could call it prejudice, but I think it's more just reasonable assumptions about people based on what the guns are made for. You don't find many people using handguns when they're out hunting. Their primary purpose of handguns is supposed to be self-defense.




*ugh* Dude, seriously, how about you just admit that I school you like a little school girl and put on your dress?I have THREE pistols that I use EXCLUSIVLY for hunting. Every state that allows hunting has a pistol season. Geez, you talking about guns is like me talking about being a commie pussy, no experience! To say the primary purpose of any broad classification of weapon is stupid. My ar-15 is a 'rifle", but it's primary purpose isn't hunting, and my .357 magnum with a 8" barrel and a 4x scope isn't for defense.
Quote:


Not a good comparison. Lots of people take karate cuz they always think some mugger's about to sneak out of the shadows and get them. The difference is people who take karate don't end up killing their spouse or family members by accident(well, not as often as handgun owners anyway).




We were talking about WHY people carry guns here, you stated the INTENT of people that carry guns was paranoia. I mentioned Karate, and you say it's an inept comparison, then you say that people that take karate do so because they think they are going to be attacked?! Then you go off on a totally different topic. YOU said that people that carry handguns do so beacuse they are paranoid, then YOU said that my comparison wasn't apt, then YOU said that "alot" of people who take karate do so because they are frightened of something. Geez man, you make it too easy. Don't keep switching topics on me. Where were we talking about how many innocents get killed? never, we were discussing the paranoia aspect of it...
Quote:


Good for you. I'm sure there's many other people like that. All I'm saying is that I think people who buy guns for self-defense, as opposed to hunting or target practice, are less likely to know what they're doing.



Yea, just like people that buy guns do so because they are paranoid, which is a horrible comparison to people who take karate because they are worried about being attacked. Say what you mean, mean what you say. Thanks. Future points and semetical assinine assertations to be deflated as they appear.

why didn't you answer my question about how many people you knew that owned guns? Does your "fuck the USA" meeting not have a gun-seminar?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Handguns vs. Rifles [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2420516 - 03/11/04 09:10 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

TheOneYouKnow said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I guess you could call it prejudice, but I think it's more just reasonable assumptions about people based on what the guns are made for. You don't find many people using handguns when they're out hunting. Their primary purpose of handguns is supposed to be self-defense.




*ugh* Dude, seriously, how about you just admit that I school you like a little school girl and put on your dress?



Because you don't, and it's incredibly laughable that you think that you do.

Quote:

I have THREE pistols that I use EXCLUSIVLY for hunting. Every state that allows hunting has a pistol season.



Well I'll be damned! Doesn't sound like a very effective means of hunting. Oh well. To each his own.

Quote:

Geez, you talking about guns is like me talking about being a commie pussy, no experience! To say the primary purpose of any broad classification of weapon is stupid. My ar-15 is a 'rifle", but it's primary purpose isn't hunting, and my .357 magnum with a 8" barrel and a 4x scope isn't for defense.



I was generalizing. Obviously there's going to be exceptions.

Quote:

Quote:


Not a good comparison. Lots of people take karate cuz they always think some mugger's about to sneak out of the shadows and get them. The difference is people who take karate don't end up killing their spouse or family members by accident(well, not as often as handgun owners anyway).




We were talking about WHY people carry guns here, you stated the INTENT of people that carry guns was paranoia. I mentioned Karate, and you say it's an inept comparison, then you say that people that take karate do so because they think they are going to be attacked?! Then you go off on a totally different topic. YOU said that people that carry handguns do so beacuse they are paranoid, then YOU said that my comparison wasn't apt, then YOU said that "alot" of people who take karate do so because they are frightened of something.



How is that switching topics. I was pointing out that people who take karate often tend to be paranoid too.

Quote:

Geez man, you make it too easy. Don't keep switching topics on me. Where were we talking about how many innocents get killed? never, we were discussing the paranoia aspect of it...



That thing about people getting killed was an aside. Your lack of comprehension never ceases to amaze me.

Quote:

Quote:


Good for you. I'm sure there's many other people like that. All I'm saying is that I think people who buy guns for self-defense, as opposed to hunting or target practice, are less likely to know what they're doing.



Yea, just like people that buy guns do so because they are paranoid, which is a horrible comparison to people who take karate because they are worried about being attacked. Say what you mean, mean what you say. Thanks. Future points and semetical assinine assertations to be deflated as they appear.



I'm not even going to explain the point about karate if you're too thick-headed to figure it out on your own.

Quote:

why didn't you answer my question about how many people you knew that owned guns? Does your "fuck the USA" meeting not have a gun-seminar?



I know a couple guys who own guns. All of them are shady as hell, and I don't like to associate myself with them. BTW, I love my country very much, in spite of the assholes who run it.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineTao
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Re: Handguns vs. Rifles [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2420523 - 03/11/04 09:12 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

TheOneYouKnow said:
Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
It seems to me that handguns are really used for sneaking around and concealment which is most helpful for robbers and murderers.




If that were true, statistical proof would indicate that the majority of handguns sold were used for murders adn robberies, do you have that proof to back up your conjecture?




if you will read what i said again, i said handguns are probably used more for more covert activities.  what you jst said is what thery were bought for, which is a very different scenario.  Many countries have bought or made many nuclear weapons for protection, only 2 have actually been used.

Quote:


If pistols are used for "murder", and we are fighting tyrants, wouldn't we want to "murder" people?  BTW, a shotgun or a pistol would work great for home defense, a rifle would massivly overpenetrate.




yes i'd be open to shotguns as well.  but tyrants generally don't attack individual people one at at time in closed areas.  a war against that would be much more open.  even those at ruby ridge didnt need handguns.  by 'murder' i mean individual killings by common criminals, not a war against a tyrannical government. 
Quote:


If you interpret the 2nd amendment to be protection from governmental tyranny, why do we need handguns?




Quote:


To rob and murder the tyrants with :smile:

I interpret the 2nd amendmant to protect the rights of citizens who haven't commited crimes to possess guns.  I enjoy shooting a pistol. Why should that be taken from me because of some law-breakers?

Also, if I wanted to commit a crime with a firearm, I wouldn't select a pistol as my frst weapon.  A rifle is much more effective in the hands of a person who is trained to use it.


My question, why aer you so interested in taking away the rights of law-abiding citizens?




because these handguns seem to do a lot more harm than good and a rifle/shotgun could be used as an alternative for protecting ones home and a better alternative for protection from tyranny.

and i would rather just take away guns from non-law-abiding citizens, unfortunately they don't walk around appropriate markings on their foreheads.


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Re: Handguns vs. Rifles [Re: silversoul7]
    #2420529 - 03/11/04 09:15 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Well I'll be damned!  Doesn't sound like a very effective means of hunting.  Oh well.  To each his own.




I've probably taken more animals with my favorite hunting pistol than you could imagine. It's quite effective, especially during pistol season when it's the only firearm that you can use.
Quote:


How is that switching topics.  I was pointing out that people who take karate often tend to be paranoid too.




Then why did you say it was a bad comparison?
Quote:


That thing about people getting killed was an aside.  Your lack of comprehension never ceases to amaze me.




Well, if you are bringing up another subject, perhaps another paragraph would be in order? don't say that it's an inept comparison, then say that it is like the other one, then go off on another rant.
Quote:


I'm not even going to explain the point about karate if you're too thick-headed to figure it out on your own.




I am, actually. Why don't you explain why comparing people who you call paranoid with people that you say are "frightend of a mugger", is a bad comparison? I must be too thick headed to understand it.
Quote:


I know a couple guys who own guns.  All of them are shady as hell, and I don't like to associate myself with them.  BTW, I love my country very much, in spite of the assholes who run it.



"your country" - ? hah :smile: hardly...


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Handguns vs. Rifles [Re: silversoul7]
    #2420545 - 03/11/04 09:18 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
You don't find many people using handguns when they're out hunting.



Many people hunt with handguns. My first handgun was a Ruger Redhawk .44 magnum with a 7 1/2 inch barrel, definately NOT practical for concealed carry or shooting in a home defense situation (magnums will go right through your walls and into your neighbor's house). Originally, .357 & .44 magnums were designed for hunting.

Quote:

Their primary purpose of handguns is supposed to be self-defense.



That really depends on the owner and what he/she decides is the primary purpose. I had a .22 handgun which was only for target shooting. My wife on the other hand has a little .357 that she only loads with .38 plus-p's, it's primary purpose is self defense. We got a .357 instead of a .38 snubnose because the .357 could handle the higher pressure of the plus-p ammo.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Re: Handguns vs. Rifles [Re: Tao]
    #2420552 - 03/11/04 09:20 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
if you will read what i said again, i said handguns are probably used more for more covert activities.




No, you said that they are "Really used". Meaning, the main intent of them is...
Quote:


what you jst said is what thery were bought for, which is a very different scenario. Many countries have bought or made many nuclear weapons for protection, only 2 have actually been used.




Ok, show me that the majority of handguns are used for robbing and murder.
Quote:


yes i'd be open to shotguns as well. but tyrants generally don't attack individual people one at at time in closed areas. a war against that would be much more open. even those at ruby ridge didnt need handguns. by 'murder' i mean individual killings by common criminals, not a war against a tyrannical government.




Again, if pistols are so good for killing, and we are fighting off tyrants, don't we want to kill them? Who do you mean by "Those" at ruby ridge? I think that Weavers family had pistols, and I'm sure that the fuckwipes that killed him did.
Quote:


because these handguns seem to do a lot more harm than good and a rifle/shotgun could be used as an alternative for protecting ones home and a better alternative for protection from tyranny.




Do you have stats that show that handguns do more harm than good? If not, it's conjecture. I could say that handguns save more lives than they take, but it's bullshit with out proof. PROVE whatyou said.
Quote:


and i would rather just take away guns from non-law-abiding citizens, unfortunately they don't walk around appropriate markings on their foreheads.



So, fuck everyone then, huh? How about we stop making people scared of guns, teach people about them, then when some coward walks in to a Mcdonalds with his pistol to shoot the place up, he can just be shot by an armed, law abiding customer, and that will be that.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Handguns vs. Rifles [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2420567 - 03/11/04 09:24 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

TheOneYouKnow said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Well I'll be damned!  Doesn't sound like a very effective means of hunting.  Oh well.  To each his own.




I've probably taken more animals with my favorite hunting pistol than you could imagine. It's quite effective, especially during pistol season when it's the only firearm that you can use.



Fair enough.  I'd always considered pistols to be close-range firearms, but I guess I was wrong.
Quote:

Quote:


How is that switching topics.  I was pointing out that people who take karate often tend to be paranoid too.




Then why did you say it was a bad comparison?



You said people who owned handguns were no more paranoid than people who take karate, and I assumed you were trying to say that they weren't very paranoid.  I was trying to say that people who take karate often are very paranoid.  I called it a bad comparison because it seemed to not go well with point I figured you were trying to make.

Quote:

Quote:


That thing about people getting killed was an aside.  Your lack of comprehension never ceases to amaze me.




Well, if you are bringing up another subject, perhaps another paragraph would be in order? don't say that it's an inept comparison, then say that it is like the other one, then go off on another rant.



It was a single rant.  I was merely comparing and contrasting handgun owners with karate students.

Quote:

Quote:


I know a couple guys who own guns.  All of them are shady as hell, and I don't like to associate myself with them.  BTW, I love my country very much, in spite of the assholes who run it.



"your country" - ? hah :smile: hardly...



Oh ya, that's right.  You neocons took this country from freedom-loving Americans like myself.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Re: Handguns vs. Rifles [Re: silversoul7]
    #2420602 - 03/11/04 09:32 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
You said people who owned handguns were no more paranoid than people who take karate, and I assumed you were trying to say that they weren't very paranoid. I was trying to say that people who take karate often are very paranoid. I called it a bad comparison because it seemed to not go well with point I figured you were trying to make.




Ah, ok. A misunderstanding on both sides, it seems. Most people that own guns, or take karate, or lift weights, or box, aren't paranoid. They are aware that a threat exists, tho remote, and they want to prepare for it.
Quote:


It was a single rant. I was merely comparing and contrasting handgun owners with karate students.




Again, I don't think it was an apt comparison. Preparing for an event doesn't equate with an all-consuming fear of the event.
Quote:

Quote:


Oh ya, that's right. You neocons took this country from freedom-loving Americans like myself.



I'm not a conservative, a neocon, or a hibbidlygookpicus. Words are just that, words. I'd say that YOUR 'type' took America from it's roots more than "neocons" did, anyway. A nation founded and run by christian white gun owning men? hahaha, yea, thats America today. Boy I sure stole that way from ya, right?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Handguns vs. Rifles [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2420632 - 03/11/04 09:38 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I'm not a conservative, a neocon, or a hibbidlygookpicus. Words are just that, words. I'd say that YOUR 'type' took America from it's roots more than "neocons" did, anyway. A nation founded and run by christian white gun owning men? hahaha, yea, thats America today. Boy I sure stole that way from ya, right?



Myth alert! The founding fathers were NOT Christian!


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Re: Handguns vs. Rifles [Re: silversoul7]
    #2420649 - 03/11/04 09:44 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I'm not christian either, but they used the word "god" alot for people that weren't christians...


--------------------
Opinions are like assholes; everyone needs one or else they'd explode


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Handguns vs. Rifles [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2420659 - 03/11/04 09:45 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Many of them were Deists and Unitarians. This means that they believed in God, but not in the divinity of Christ or the infallibility of the Bible.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinevalour
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Re: Handguns vs. Rifles [Re: silversoul7]
    #2421047 - 03/11/04 11:38 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"Never try to teach a pig to sing.
You'll just get a terrible noise and frustrate the pig."

Hell, and I'm on a largely different side of the gun control issue than you, SS (from what I've read), but damn. Why bother with this one?


--------------------
"Remember, son,
I didn't sell out-
I bought in."


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Handguns vs. Rifles [Re: valour]
    #2421215 - 03/12/04 12:20 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Believe it or not, I'm actually against most gun control. But that doesn't mean I'm going to ignore the dangers of guns, just as my pro-legalization stance doesn't mean I'm going to ignore the dangers of drugs.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Handguns vs. Rifles [Re: silversoul7]
    #2421228 - 03/12/04 12:24 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Here's my stance, "shoot guns, not drugs."


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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