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Re: John Kerry -- war criminal [Re: Xlea321]
    #2543199 -

Alex123 said:
Coming from the most ardent supporter of the Bush administration on this forum, I find your portrayal of the opposition to be laughable.

Strange. Last week you spent 4 pages insisting to me there wern't any Bush supporters in the forum.


Bullshit. I insisted that there were no neocons in this forum. Keep twisting people's words, Alpo. It may just work someday, but not today.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: John Kerry -- war criminal [Re: silversoul7]
    #2543389 -

Quote:
Posted by Silversoul7

Specifically, I'm reading a Political Forum in which the majority of posters are liberal, with a small but vocal conservative/libertarian minority who consider Bush to be at best the "best of bad choices," and at worst a traitor.




Can't find the "ardent supporter of the Bush administration" mentioned in this description you posted last week silver. Can you? I wouldn't want to "twist your words"  :rolleyes:

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Re: John Kerry -- war criminal [Re: silversoul7]
    #2543436 -

Bullshit. I insisted that there were no neocons in this forum. Keep twisting people's words, Alpo. It may just work someday, but not today.

I understand that you're irritated at Alex for misrepresenting your position, but when you start aping luvdemshrooms that's a really sad day for the forum. I know you can do better than that: let's start by not referring to other human beings as dog food.

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Re: John Kerry -- war criminal [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2543894 -

But it's so accurate.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: John Kerry -- war criminal [Re: Phred]
    #2544143 -

Please explain to the readers here how directly cutting and pasting -- with no alterations whatsoever -- your opinion of Colin Powell is misrepresentation.

Thank you.

sure thing.
first of all,
I didn't give my opinion of Colin Powell, at least initially(y/n?)
I simply stated two facts about him. (y/n?)
this is what you quoted: "the only cabinet-level member of the Bush administration with combat experience is Colin Powell, who was the most moderate voice in the administration..." (y/n?)

but you said:
Perhaps you and Xochitl should open a separate thread to further discuss your differing opinions on the character of Colin Powell.

contrasting my opinion of Powell (or rather, what you thought was my opinion of him) with Xochitl's is in fact, a misrepresentation of my position, considering what Xochitl has said about Powell in this thread.

you probably weren't even aware that you were doing it, and I'm sure it's not obvious to most here, which is why I said: you have a real sneaky way of misrepresenting...

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Re: Bush Mongers -- getting desperate [Re: Phred]
    #2544251 -

pinksharkmark said:
infidelGOD writes:

like I said, Kerry was obviously playing politics when he said those things, much as you're doing now.

Well, I certainly wouldn't want to be accused of misrepresenting your words, so let's see if we can slice away all the euphemisms here and speak plainly.

1) Did Kerry say he had participated in hooch burning and free fire exercises etc.? Yes or no?
2) Are these actions classified as war crimes? Yes or no?
3) Is someone who confesses to crimes a self-admitted criminal? Yes or no?

Now, I don't want to be misrepresenting your words, but when I try to translate "like I said, Kerry was obviously playing politics when he said those things," and "it's called political rhetoric", I get "Kerry lied about his actions in Viet Nam." Would that be a fair, euphemism-free rephrasing of your comment?

He was using himself as an example to condemn an unjust war and reminding people of the horrors of war.

Yes, we know that. The question I am trying to get you to answer is -- did Kerry lie about his actions in Viet Nam or didn't he? Because if he never did those things, then he's not a self-admitted war criminal, he's just a liar and a poser.

he wasn't ACTUALLY admitting to be a war criminal.

Is someone who confesses to committing crimes a self-admitted criminal? Yes or no?

"And I believe that the men who. . .ordered us. . .are war criminals."

Nuremburg established that the excuse "I was just following orders" is no excuse. Culpability may be shared between those issuing illegal orders and those carrying them out, but that's as far as it goes.

and what if he said these things in order to protest what he saw as an unjust war and to make people think about the realities of war?

Neither you nor I know whether Kerry actually did those things, so we have no way of knowing whether he is an honest-to-goodness war criminal or just a make-believe war criminal. But I am interested in your personal opinion -- do you personally believe he did those things or do you personally believe he lied about doing those things?

or would you completely miss the point and breathlessly scream WAR CRIMINAL!!!?

I'm doing no breathless screaming here. I posted quotes from John F Kerry confessing to war crimes. It is of course a possibity he lied about doing those things -- as I point out elsewhere in this thread, most American officers who served in Viet Nam committed no war crimes, so it is entirely possible (statistically even probable) that Kerry also committed none. I admit it would be a relief to know the Democratic presidential contender is not an actual war criminal but merely a self-confessed war criminal "wannabe".

pinky


blah blah
ok all of that comes down to:

if Kerry is telling the truth, he's a war criminal

war crimal vs. liar

at this point, I don't care if he's a lying war criminal
he's better than the lying war criminal we have in the white house now

and btw, I'm not a big fan of Kerry either so don't go there

I'm fully "wedded" to the best of bad choices voting strategy. let's get real.

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Re: John Kerry -- war criminal [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2544283 -

Quote:
Gee. You wouldn't be referring to those here who are convinced Bush is a stoopid evil genius, would you?

There is no contradiction between being stupid and evil. I don't recall anybody here ever referring to George W. Bush as a "genius."


nor do I. perhaps he was confused by the fact that many here think that Bush is controlled by evil geniuses. but I've never heard anyone referring to Bush as a genius

and besides, pinky's remark doesn't really address your observation that:

"A good general rule of thumb is that if somebody resorts to two diametrically opposite caricatures in order to discredit somebody, the person doing the discrediting is grasping at straws--i.e., is full of it."

he's basically saying "hey, others in here do it to! see - bush evil stupid genius!"
not only is that response inaccurate, it's incredibly weak.

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Re: John Kerry -- war criminal [Re: ]
    #2544317 -

Mr_Mushrooms said:
I don't have the stomach to waste my precious time arguing with whiny idiots who wouldn't know the light of day if they were basked in it.

MM


1) NO FLAMING ...if you can't state your case or refute someone elses case without calling them "stupid" or an "idiot"..etc...Then don't bother posting here. This forum is for intelligent debate, not to try to belittle someone that doesn't think like you. THIS WILL BE STRICTLY ENFORCED ... If you have been warned already, you will receive a temporary ban, if you continue to flame you will be banned permanently...choose your words wisely or suffer the consequences.

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Re: John Kerry -- war criminal [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2544372 -

If you re-read his post without the chip on your shoulder you'll see he flamed no-one.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Bush Mongers -- getting desperate [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2544438 -

infidelGOD said:
I'm fully "wedded" to the best of bad choices voting strategy. let's get real.


I'm fully convinced that both Bush and Kerry are flaming assholes who will not do what is good for the country but only what is politically expedient and beneficial for themselves and their cronies. The best of bad choices strategy is what continues to drive us on our current path, it does not change our course but merely swerves us from the right side of the road to the left side of the road then back to the right side again, only to repeat the pattern. Neither choice will reverse the abandonment of constitutional principles, neither will turn us away from the cliff we are headed for at an ever increasing velocity.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Bush Mongers -- getting desperate [Re: Evolving]
    #2544461 -

:thumbup:

I still haven't decided how I intend to vote.  As surprising as this may be to some, I partially hope Bush is defeated.  Though I have different reasons than most of you do.


--------------------
I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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Re: Bush Mongers -- getting desperate [Re: Evolving]
    #2544465 -

What we need is instant runoff voting so that the "Best of Bad Choices" strategy will be obsolete.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Bush Mongers -- getting desperate [Re: silversoul7]
    #2545633 -

silversoul7 said:
What we need is instant runoff voting so that the "Best of Bad Choices" strategy will be obsolete.


Even more than that, what we need is proportional representation in the U.S. Congress.

As long as we have this system of district-by-district voting, the two richest parties will effectively be able to shut out any third-party candidates from the Congress. Unless third-party candidates have the chance to serve in federal-level elected positions, they will never gain experience, exposure, or be able to prove that they can get the job done--and without the opportunities to do those things, they will never have a chance of effecting change, to say nothing of winning the Presidency.

Until that day comes, a third-party vote is just a wasted vote. Americans, despite their claims to individuality and free thinking, are actually an extremely conservative and conformist lot. There's no way in hell you can convince a plurality of them in all but the most unusual districts to send a third-party candidate to Congress.

The Founding Fathers were brilliant in a lot of things, but electoral systems wasn't one of them. The parlimentary systems developed later in Europe are far superior and far more democratic.

The problem is systemic and so the solution must be systemic: a handful of misfits making a principled stand and thereby acting as spoilers to elect the candidate they hate most is hardly my definition of political progress.

Write your congressman demanding proportional representation. It's the only hope for America at this point.

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Re: Bush Mongers -- getting desperate [Re: Evolving]
    #2545959 -

Evolving said:
infidelGOD said:
I'm fully "wedded" to the best of bad choices voting strategy. let's get real.


I'm fully convinced that both Bush and Kerry are flaming assholes who will not do what is good for the country but only what is politically expedient and beneficial for themselves and their cronies. The best of bad choices strategy is what continues to drive us on our current path, it does not change our course but merely swerves us from the right side of the road to the left side of the road then back to the right side again, only to repeat the pattern. Neither choice will reverse the abandonment of constitutional principles, neither will turn us away from the cliff we are headed for at an ever increasing velocity.


agreed. what's needed is massive reforms in the electoral process. we could start by implementing instant runoff voting, which can't happen until we abolish the electoral college, which would probably require a constitutional amendment.

of course, none of this will happen in the next seven months, so in the short term I'm perfectly willing to adopt the best of bad choices voting strategy, though I hate to do it.

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Re: Bush Mongers -- getting desperate [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2545965 -

Well said.

I think those libertarians who bash democracy really ought to rethink their stance: the only way that libertarians (or any other third party) will ever have a fighting chance is if we adopt an electoral system which is more democratic than the one we have now: that means abolishing the electoral college, having instant run-offs, and proportional representation.

With PR chances are that the Libertarians and Greens would each get about 5-10% of the seats in Congress right at the beginning, with more on the way as they become better known and therefore more acceptable to the mainstream. How awesome would that be? Some real debate and some actual new ideas being discussed in the Capitol Building for a change.

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General Interest > Political Discussion
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