Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Political Discussion
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 |  [ show all ]
Re: John Kerry -- war criminal [Re: Phred]
    #2531534 -

at the university i attend, we have an inept, ineffectual, 'student government'. we recently had an election.... out of the 27 seats up for election, 17 were won by write-ins by people like rick james, donald duck, strongbad, and satan. it made quite a statement.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: John Kerry -- war criminal [Re: Xochitl]
    #2531598 -

Xochitl writes:

You obviously do not know the definition of the word repent. I figured you would play a semantics game, so I posted the dictionary definition.

Yes, I saw it -- "To make a change for the better as a result of remorse or contrition for one's sins"

What change for the better has Kerry made? I'll admit he stopped torching hooches once his four month tour of duty in Viet Nam was up, but you must admit it's kind of hard to find hooches to torch anywhere near his mansion.

My invitation to provide a credible source for Kerry making any kind of repentant statement about his actions remains open.

I do not agree with your unfounded premise that is Kerry a "war-criminal," sorry.

You may not agree, but Kerry certainly does. See his own public statements provided in the first post in the thread. It is hardly an "unfounded premise", it is based on the man's own public statements on national televison, which he then repeated publicly elsewhere over and over again.

Even the Pentagon and world community disagrees with you - where is the trial?

Try to grasp this concept -- no trial is necessary. Kerry is a self-admitted war criminal. Why is it necessary to repeat this? A rapist who is never tried for his rapes yet boasts of them is a self-admitted rapist.

However, I do think that the Bush Inc. administration is choke-full of criminals and individuals who have either engaged or attempted to cover-up crimes against humanity and shading dealing with death squads and terrorists.

You think so? Where is the trial?

You're really stretching pinksharkmark - it's kinda sad.

LOL! Who is it who's stretching here? No matter how much finger-pointing you do at others, the fact remains that John F. Kerry is a self-admitted war criminal. A man who as an officer of twenty seven years of age -- not some eighteen year old high school dropout from the slums who got drafted against his will -- knowingly committed acts contrary to the laws of warfare, the Geneva and Hague Conventions yadda yadda yadda.

I asked in my first post a question:

"How is voting for a self-admitted war criminal morally preferable to voting for Ralph Nader or Gary Nolan?"

You answered my question -- in your opinion it is preferable to vote for a self-admitted war criminal than to risk four more years of Bush and Powell and Armitage et al. You feel it is better to have a self-admitted war criminal (repentant or not) running the show. That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: John Kerry -- war criminal [Re: Phred]
    #2531659 -

So what you're saying is that our choice this November is between a guy who killed some woman and children in Vietnam and a guy who is responsible for over 600 American deaths and thousands of Iraqi deaths.




--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: Wild Things- Another Colored Ink Drawing (A.C.I.D.)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: John Kerry -- war criminal [Re: Learyfan]
    #2531672 -

only if you include only the democratic and republican candidates.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: John Kerry -- war criminal [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2531707 -

EchoVortex writes:

A reformed war criminal is better than a current warmonger. Those alas are the choices.

So you (like luvdemshrooms) are wedded to the "best of a bad lot" voting strategy. Fair enough.

George W. Bush failed and I hold him accountable, even if he doesn't hold himself accountable.

So if Al Gore had been sworn in as president in January of 2001 rather than Bush, and 9/11 had happened anyway, you would be voting against Gore this time around? Your voting decision for the 2004 election was determined in late 2001? Fair enough.

I most certainly do NOT believe that those attacks and their overwhelming success was some sort of God-given inevitability that couldn't have been prevented no matter who was in office.

Nor do I. Actions -- no matter how unacceptable to the American populace --could have been taken to prevent 9/11, no matter who was in office.

Show me statements of his that demonstrate your claim and we'll talk. Until then you're just pulling stuff out of your ass.

Oh, please. You mean to tell me you never caught any of Kerry's widely-reported remarks about the threat of terrorism being exaggerated? Or about terrorism being a law enforcement issue? Or about how the president of the US should be subservient to the UN -- meaning of course France and Germany?

Now you've descended to the utterly puerile tactic of mindlessly repeating the same shtick over and over again with no variation whatsoever.

What repetition? Did you or did you not very thoroughly and eloquently explain your belief that having a self-admitted war criminal as president was preferable to having Bush as president? What part of
Quote:
A reformed war criminal is better than a current warmonger. Those alas are the choices.

am I misinterpreting?

All I care about is one thing: whose policies in the final analysis are going to result in the deaths of fewer innocent people?

If only the president of the United States had the same luxury. Unfortunately, in the real world (as you are so found of saying) the prez is sworn to defend his constituents. Sometimes that means making decisions which might involve the deaths of non-combatants outside the borders of the United States, as past US presidents have discovered.

Now, if John Kerry is elected and starts all sorts of illegal wars and commits war crimes left and right, I'll be the first in line to call for his resignation or impeachment. But anybody with even a crumb of common sense realizes that's not going to happen.

It certainly is not going to happen if Kerry subjugates himself (and all his constituents) to the whims of the UN, that's for sure. To even be in a position where the possibility of war crimes exists, one must first be willing to fight back.

pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: John Kerry -- war criminal [Re: Learyfan]
    #2531718 -

Learyfan asks:

So what you're saying is that our choice this November is between a guy who killed some woman and children in Vietnam and a guy who is responsible for over 600 American deaths and thousands of Iraqi deaths.

What part of
Quote:
"How is voting for a self-admitted war criminal morally preferable to voting for Ralph Nader or Gary Nolan?"

is unclear to you?

pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: John Kerry -- war criminal [Re: Phred]
    #2531723 -

So is my father....he dropped bombs on innocent women and children in Viet Nam. Another fellow I know who was there had to shoot a small Vietnamese boy who was going to toss a hand grenade into a tent filled with American GI's. And I've read countless stories of other Viet Nam vets who had to do similar things. I'm not condoning this, but this IS the nature of war. Innocent lives are taken. I'm sure there are just as many "war criminals" from WW 2 (maybe including G. Bush Senior) and there are going to many like them from this latest fracus in Iraq. But all these men went when their country called them, even if they felt the war was unjust or unnecessary. I couldn't say the same about a certain Republican candidate....

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: John Kerry -- war criminal [Re: Phred]
    #2531819 -

Quote:
What change for the better has Kerry made? I'll admit he stopped torching hooches once his four month tour of duty in Viet Nam was up, but you must admit it's kind of hard to find hooches to torch anywhere near his mansion.



Already answered that question.

Quote:
My invitation to provide a credible source for Kerry making any kind of repentant statement about his actions remains open.



Since we are talking about politicians, I am less interested in words and more their actions - unlike yourself. Kerry is not a warlusting tool for the military-industrial complex like Bush Inc.

Quote:
You may not agree, but Kerry certainly does. See his own public statements provided in the first post in the thread. It is hardly an "unfounded premise", it is based on the man's own public statements on national televison, which he then repeated publicly elsewhere over and over again.



As other posters have stated, Kerry's words are more of a reflection of common actions of many during the Vietnam invasion.

Can you not, in your mind, see how an individual can be caught up in a horrific situation thousands of miles away from home and then later realize the error of these actions? And in repentence has had a long career of not supporting the military-industrial complex and its war-planners because it promotes such horrific situations?

Quote:
Try to grasp this concept -- no trial is necessary. Kerry is a self-admitted war criminal. Why is it necessary to repeat this? A rapist who is never tried for his rapes yet boasts of them is a self-admitted rapist.



Investigations and fair trials create credence and substance to heavy claims that may or may not have been inflated to create anti-war political ammo, no?

Quote:
However, I do think that the Bush Inc. administration is choke-full of criminals and individuals who have either engaged or attempted to cover-up crimes against humanity and shading dealing with death squads and terrorists.

You think so? Where is the trial?



See the Mai Lai Massacre investigations and trials. See the investigations and trials of the Iran-Contra scandal. Both resulted in convictions. Thanks!

Quote:

You answered my question -- in your opinion it is preferable to vote for a self-admitted war criminal than to risk four more years of Bush and Powell and Armitage et al. You feel it is better to have a self-admitted war criminal (repentant or not) running the show.



Dont put words in my mouth. If Kerry had not changed his trajectory away from the warlust that Bush Inc. has engaged in and continues to embrace, I would not support him.


--------------------
As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: John Kerry -- war criminal [Re: Xochitl]
    #2531837 -

Quote:
Can you not, in your mind, see how an individual can be caught up in a horrific situation thousands of miles away from home and then later realize the error of these actions?



Sensible response.


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: John Kerry -- war criminal [Re: ]
    #2531873 -

Quote:
only if you include only the democratic and republican candidates.


Indeed!


--------------------
<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: John Kerry -- war criminal [Re: Xochitl]
    #2531919 -

Xochitl writes:

Since we are talking about politicians, I am less interested in words and more their actions - unlike yourself.

Actions like torching hooches?

Can you not, in your mind, see how an individual can be caught up in a horrific situation thousands of miles away from home and then later realize the error of these actions?

Can you not, in your mind, see how an individual can be caught up in a lust-invoking situation and then later realize it was wrong to rape?

Dude, this is irrelevant. As I said, he was not a semi-literate adolescent draftee. He was an educated man of twenty-seven; a trained officer charged with leading troops under him and setting an example for them. His attempts to pin his behavior on the "higher-ups" is transparent and self-serving.

Investigations and fair trials create credence and substance to heavy claims that may or may not have been inflated to create anti-war political ammo, no?

You're surely not suggesting John F Kerry was lying about his criminal actions, are you?

See the Mai Lai Massacre investigations and trials. See the investigations and trials of the Iran-Contra scandal. Both resulted in convictions.

Powell was convicted of war crimes? Armitage was convicted? Poindexter, Abrams, Reich, Negroponte, and Daniels are all convicted war criminals? Holy crap! I thought I was pretty good at following big news stories, but I have to admit I missed that one. Thanks for bringing me up to date. What were their sentences? How did Bush get around their criminal records in appointing them? Did he issue presidential pardons or what?

If Kerry had not changed his trajectory away from the warlust that Bush Inc. has engaged in and continues to embrace, I would not support him.

Ah. So in your opinion it is preferable to vote for an allegedly repentant self-admitted war criminal than to risk four more years of Bush and Powell and Armitage et al. Now I got it.

pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: John Kerry -- war criminal [Re: Phred]
    #2532009 -

Quote:
So you (like luvdemshrooms) are wedded to the "best of a bad lot" voting strategy. Fair enough.


I must say I'm surprised to see two erroneous statements from you re: me in just one thread.

As I have clearly pointed out in the past, the only time I use that strategy is when the election is as close as this one appears to be. I am not wedded to it. While you appear to be dismissive of it, it is one I gave a lot of thought to and am comfortable with.

If you feel the need to use me as an example, please.... at least be accurate about it.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: John Kerry -- war criminal [Re: Phred]
    #2532030 -

Quote:
Ah. So in your opinion it is preferable to vote for an allegedly repentant self-admitted war criminal than to risk four more years of Bush and Powell and Armitage et al. Now I got it.




Mine, too.

Quote:
So you (like luvdemshrooms) are wedded to the "best of a bad lot" voting strategy. Fair enough.



The (presidential) voting system in the US makes that the only viable strategy. It is possible to design a system in which coosing, say, Nader over Kerry wouldn't contribute to a Bush victory, but we don't use such a system.

"Best of bad lot" it is, for me at any rate.

Edited by phi1618 (04/06/04 03:09 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: John Kerry -- war criminal [Re: Phred]
    #2532043 -

Quote:
Can you not, in your mind, see how an individual can be caught up in a lust-invoking situation and then later realize it was wrong to rape?



Actually, I can. I once knew a guy in college who got intoxicated at a party and date-raped a girl - it was a terrible situation. Many years later and after many large consequences, he is a happily married man who has come to grips with his alcoholism and donates to and helps out his local battered-womens' shelter. His immoral actions still haunt him, but he has turned a new leaf - so to speak.

Quote:
Dude, this is irrelevant. As I said, he was not a semi-literate adolescent draftee. He was an educated man of twenty-seven; a trained officer charged with leading troops under him and setting an example for them. His attempts to pin his behavior on the "higher-ups" is transparent and self-serving.



Dude, that is irrelevant. Post-World War II psychological training could not begin to prepare soliders -even officers- for the horrors of battle in Vietman. Such training cannot and will not. Humans are not robots nor Pavlovian dogs - even if you think they are.

Quote:
Powell was convicted of war crimes? Armitage was convicted? Poindexter, Abrams, Reich, Negroponte, and Daniels are all convicted war criminals? Holy crap! I thought I was pretty good at following big news stories, but I have to admit I missed that one. Thanks for bringing me up to date. What were their sentences? How did Bush get around their criminal records in appointing them? Did he issue presidential pardons or what?



I never said they were convicted of war crimes. Perhaps you need to read things more s l o w l y and c a r e f u l l y.

I said: However, I do think that the Bush Inc. administration is choke-full of criminals and individuals who have either engaged or attempted to cover-up crimes against humanity and shading dealing with death squads and terrorists.

Colin Powell: attempted to cover up the massacre of over 500 unarmed men, women, children, and babies as well as other atrocities.

John Poindexter: convicted on five felony counts for his involvement in the Iran-Contra scandal.

Elliot Abrams: convicted for his involvment in the Iran-Contra scandal.

Otto Reich: Heavily involved with supporting the rightwing death squads of Nicaragua during his stay at State Department.

John Negroponte: Heavily involved with supporting the Contra deathsquads in Honduras.

How many innocent civilians were kidnapped, tortured, and killed in Central America as a result of these mens' actions?

Quote:
What were their sentences? How did Bush get around their criminal records in appointing them? Did he issue presidential pardons or what?



George Bush Sr. pardoned them all in 1992.

Do you need me to school you on anything else? Or do you got it?


--------------------
As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Bush Mongers -- getting desperate [Re: Phred]
    #2532115 -

John Kerry a war criminal?
this is really silly pinky.
others have already explained it to you

but lets look at this another way:
a lot of troops are in Iraq right now, some commiting acts which they'll come to regret later in life. they're going to have to live with their actions for the rest of their lives. what if one of them chooses to run for office?
would you be ranting and raving about how he's a "war criminal" while excusing the "higher-ups" who actually started the war and gave the orders?

Kerry was playing politics when he said those things, as should be expected
but you could do better

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: John Kerry -- war criminal [Re: Xochitl]
    #2532143 -

Can you not, in your mind, see how an individual can be caught up in a horrific situation thousands of miles away from home and then later realize the error of these actions?

well said.
unfortunately, that is the nature of war.
its interesting that those who have actually experienced war come to be advocates of peace.
the only cabinet-level member of the Bush administration with combat experience is Colin Powell, who was the most moderate voice in the administration, while chickenhawks who've never picked up a gun in defence of their country like Cheney and Wolfowitz (and some armchair generals in this forum) were foaming at the mouth screaming for war (or at least, trying to justify it).

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: John Kerry -- war criminal [Re: Xochitl]
    #2533171 -

Xochitl writes:

Post-World War II psychological training could not begin to prepare soliders -even officers- for the horrors of battle in Vietman. Such training cannot and will not. Humans are not robots nor Pavlovian dogs - even if you think they are.

The horrors of war are nothing new. Read some accounts of World War I or World War II or Korea or even the American Civil War. Viet Nam was nothing special in the horror department. It pales in comparison to the atrocities committed routinely in Africa.

Your basic premise seems to be that anyone placed in a war zone has the capacity to become a war criminal, and should not be blamed for it -- because he is in a war zone. Yet recall the early days of the Iraq war when civilians were driving up to checkpoints and detonating women in order to kill troops. By the same reasoning you use to excuse Kerry's torching of hooches, coalition troops should have been forgiven if they chose to do a few "free fire drills" whenever they saw a woman get out of a car near them -- as long as they felt bad about it once they got home. "Hey, no foul -- you were in a strange place thousands of miles from home where even civilian women are trying to kill you. What counts is you feel bad about it now, right?"

Since no such "free fire drills" took place in Iraq, the point is moot.

As I mentioned earlier, I protested the war in Viet Nam. I protested the things that Kerry admitted doing -- free fire drills, hooch-burning. The difference between what Kerry admits he did and what Calley was convicted of doing is one of numbers only -- not of principle.

I never said they were convicted of war crimes.

And I never said Kerry was convicted of war crimes.

pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Bush Mongers -- getting desperate [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2533188 -

InfidelGod writes:

John Kerry a war criminal?
this is really silly pinky.
others have already explained it to you

By his own admission, he is a war criminal. Who would know better than Kerry himself? The rationalizations of people on a bulletin board don't alter that fact. None of them served with Kerry.

but lets look at this another way:
a lot of troops are in Iraq right now, some commiting acts which they'll come to regret later in life. they're going to have to live with their actions for the rest of their lives. what if one of them chooses to run for office?
would you be ranting and raving about how he's a "war criminal" while excusing the "higher-ups" who actually started the war and gave the orders?

Few of the troops who served in Viet Nam were war criminals. Even fewer of the troops who are in Iraq are war criminals. But yes, if an Iraq veteran admitted to being a war criminal after returning home, and later decided to run for office, I would remind people intending to vote for him of his self-confessed criminality.

Kerry was playing politics when he said those things, as should be expected

You are surely not suggesting that John F Kerry lied about his Viet Nam service, are you?


pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: John Kerry -- war criminal [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2533204 -

luvdemshrooms writes:

As I have clearly pointed out in the past, the only time I use that strategy is when the election is as close as this one appears to be. I am not wedded to it. While you appear to be dismissive of it, it is one I gave a lot of thought to and am comfortable with.

Yes, I am aware of your criterion for deciding when to adopt that strategy. But as you yourself point out, you used it in the last election, and will be doing so again this election. My point in mentioning you specifically is to highlight the hypocrisy of those here who have denigrated your strategy yet will be using it themselves. You have been subjected to a lot of ridicule for your stance by the same crowd who intend to do the same.

Perhaps I was too heavy-handed in making my point. If so, I apologize to you.

pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: John Kerry -- war criminal [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2533239 -

InfidelGod writes:

the only cabinet-level member of the Bush administration with combat experience is Colin Powell, who was the most moderate voice in the administration...

Would that be the same Colin Powell "whose disgusting military and political career is not to be ignored"?

The same Colin Powell who "launched his military/political career with total dishonesty and disgregard for evidence & first-person testimony"?

The same Colin Powell who perhaps "surpressed the Mai Lai massacre investigations in order to please his ideological higher-ups and to advance his career, or perhaps because he is simply just another thug in uniform who wholeheartedly agrees with invading countries for the sake of geopolitical strategy and US hegemony"?

The same Colin Powell whose "blind ambition and lack of any morality lead to the coverup of a massacre of over 300 unarmed men, women, children, and babies. This internal lack of morals and integrity can be seen throughout his career - take, as just two examples, his dishonest testimony to Congress regarding the Reagan administrations' Iran-Contra scandal and his false presentation to the United Nations last year regarding weapons of mass destruction"?

Perhaps you and Xochitl should open a separate thread to further discuss your differing opinions on the character of Colin Powell.

pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 |  [ show all ]

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Political Discussion
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* John Kerry's Speech
( 1 2 3 4 all )		 Zahid 5,413 61 07/31/04 04:53 PM
by Ancalagon
* Why Americans Must Vote for John Kerry
( 1 2 3 all )		 Zahid 4,932 40 08/29/04 02:08 PM
by Zahid
* john kerry's record on civil liberties Anonymous 720 3 09/30/04 02:41 PM
by silversoul7
* John Kerry Admitting to his War Crimes .mp3
( 1 2 all )		 retread 2,431 29 08/24/04 09:44 PM
by z@z.com
* More Bullshit From John Kerry
( 1 2 all )		 Divided_Sky 2,664 21 10/08/04 12:19 PM
by silversoul7
* John Kerry's War Vote: Profiles in Political Calculation? Ancalagon 800 3 08/22/04 07:18 PM
by zappaisgod
* point about John Kerry vampirism 837 17 08/14/04 04:11 AM
by Zahid
* republicans support john kerry?? KingOftheThing 1,186 6 07/31/04 11:57 PM
by JesusChrist

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
8,094 topic views. 0 members, 124 guests and 43 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.028 seconds spending 0.005 seconds on 16 queries.