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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Legal issues with selling mushroom cultures.
    #2530519 - 04/06/04 05:04 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I'm no legal bioexpert, but I'm under the impression that if you get a culture from someone who is selling cultures, and you make agar plates and start producing your own liquid culture syringes and selling them that you may be liable for civil penalties if the person who origionally isolated the culture were to decide to sue you.

My question is, what if you took spores from mushrooms grown from the same culture, and isolated a culture from that? Would that relieve you from legal liability?


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InvisibleLoki
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Re: Legal issues with selling mushroom cultures. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2530650 - 04/06/04 08:02 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Unsure, I know some are copyrited.
Maybe its best to pick from the wild, or clone
store bought mushrooms, were there is no copy
right on the lables.

The only way for them to sue you, is after they do dna tests i think, so using spores might be a way around this.


Its something I've thought about when selling spawn, but I
have had no come backs.


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Offlinepsiloz
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Re: Legal issues with selling mushroom cultures. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2530687 - 04/06/04 08:25 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Im under the impression its all a bluff

i mean what a load of shit. If patenting seeds wasnt bad enough now they want to patent mushrooms too

Heres how these 'protected' spawn makers go about making these special 'patented' strains

All strains come from the wild originally or via a culture library
some strains even originate from traditional strains or areas within countries signed to the biodiversity treaty (the US is not one) and so its actually the property of that nation ie China
so... you smuggle it out and then... you isolate them and work with it
if you find something of use then you give it a name and sell it or grow it, In true piracy fashion of course you tell everyone that this blackbirded strain is your proprietary strain


but this idea of doing both stinks. You cant sell something that lives breathes and reproduces freely and attach broad sweeping caveats like that that cant and wont be enforced - if it were aw it would be ridiculous. You sell it and its no longer yours - simple
if you thinks its so special keep it to yourself!

really pisses me off


Edited by psiloz (04/06/04 08:31 AM)


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InvisibleMilletV
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Re: Legal issues with selling mushroom cultures. [Re: psiloz]
    #2531170 - 04/06/04 01:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I agree w psiloz, id like to see staments (as an example) claim to proprietery right hold up in court.

can I go out and dig up an elm tree and patent it, yea I can. Does it carry any validity in a court of law, probably not.

I doubt that the patenters would persue it to the point of doing dna tests on my culture to see if it matches theirs.

Greed, greed, fucking greed!


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Legal issues with selling mushroom cultures. [Re: Millet]
    #2531243 - 04/06/04 01:38 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Just using stamets oyster strains as an example. how much difference do you think you would see in performance between one of his isolated strains, and a multispore inoculation, or cultures made from fruitbodies from multispore inoculation?

In other words are his strains one in a million quality, one in a thousand quality, one in a hundred quality, one in ten quality...? How many isolated strains would you have to select from to get one comparable to the ones he sells?


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Re: Legal issues with selling mushroom cultures. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2531270 - 04/06/04 01:46 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Organisms are copyrighted via DNA fingerprints, but I don't know if the match has to be 100%. For example if you grow a culture from spores of copyrighted strain the DNA match could be very close but not exactly 100% and that may be enough to prove that you broke the copyright.

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~biotech_ed_info/BIOTECH_INFO/bio7.html

Quote:


Because of the uniqueness of DNA fingerprint data, the technique can be
used to legally protect new varieties of plants or animals, whether they
were developed by genetic engineering, tissue culture, or traditional
methods. Using DNA fingerprints to identify and protect commercial
varieties of crops or livestock is a relatively new application of DNA
fingerprint technology.





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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Legal issues with selling mushroom cultures. [Re: zeronio]
    #2531282 - 04/06/04 01:49 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Not sure, but I think it would be a patent, not a copyright.


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Re: Legal issues with selling mushroom cultures. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2532259 - 04/06/04 06:05 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

On page 256-257 in Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms Paul Stamets says,"...Patenting a mushroom strain because it produces a convex cap would be like trying to patent a tree for having a vertical trunk, or a corn variety for producing a cylindrical cob."

Sounds like someone who believes in fungal freedom; however, Paul Stamets is not attempting to copyright or patent his cultures. Instead of copyrighting or patenting he makes the buyer agree to a contract that says:

"5. Limitation of Use. Your Fungi Perfecti, LLC mushroom culture(s) is conditionally delivered subject to your agreement to comply with the following limitation of culture(s) use:

You may not resell your cultures in any way, shape or form.
You may not resale, transfer, market or assign these cultures, directly or indirectly, to third parties.
You may not represent these cultures as being connected with Fungi Perfecti, LLC without our written consent.
You may only use these cultures for fresh and dried fruit body products, and for your personal use to grow spawn for fresh and dried fruit body products.
You shall not resale Fungi Perfecti, LLC?s spawn or cultures without our written consent.
The resale of cultures in in vitro or spawn form is prohibited. "
http://www.fungi.com/cultures/culture-agreement.html


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Legal issues with selling mushroom cultures. [Re: YidakiMan]
    #2532580 - 04/06/04 08:00 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I got some blue oyster from him years ago (in a kit), but I never took a culture from it.

I don't know really what the origional source of any of my cultures are.


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Offlinepsiloz
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Re: Legal issues with selling mushroom cultures. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2543509 - 04/09/04 03:00 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Re quality

This is just a guess but id say that its just like cubies
You have good reliable spore races and you have variable spore races. I have seen edibles go by multispore and the difference in offspring ranged from extreme to nil in different species.

beside quality is in many ways relative dependent on growing conditions and substrate.

It is possible to breed sterile mushroom varieties with no spores. I think in this case maybe a patent would be ok - if only because there is a clear precedent for breeder work and a way of confirming identity (maybe?)
Genetically modifed crops are similar - Corn and Canola are two species targeted heavily in GM yet they are OUTCROSSERS! Its stupid to think you can keep it in your field. Potatoes, soybeans and Agave are mostly perfect flowers or veg propagated and so its enforceable and possibly definable.
Mushrooms cast thousands or even millions of spores adrift every day which travel far from the site of growth and mushroom growers distribute single clones over vast areas
It is possible that these introduced genes will mix and make it even harder in future to define strains in the legal system.


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Re: Legal issues with selling mushroom cultures. [Re: psiloz]
    #9707339 - 01/30/09 08:35 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Has anyone tried using copy-lefts with some kind of provision to be able to charge for work/materials?  I would be interested in doing this since I found some Shaggy Parasols in my back yard I'd like to harvest and isolate some strains of if they grow back this year.


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Re: Legal issues with selling mushroom cultures. [Re: Chakravanti]
    #9710203 - 01/31/09 07:33 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

my guess is stamet really doesnt care when it comes to his kits and plug spawn, i mean he must know its gunna float around . but his real cultures that he put alot of work into and he sells for big bucks  he prob not be to happy about . the only thing i could see him actually goin after someone for  is if the tried to run a bisness labeling cultures with his name which is wrong.  but honestly the whole patent and all that is just as wrong,  who goes around selling cats or dogs and trys all that patient crap, its just not right.  mushrooms cant save the world if you take all the hobby out of it.  trading is just part of the gig


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Re: Legal issues with selling mushroom cultures. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #9710401 - 01/31/09 09:42 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

You are talking about making money with other peoples work. Be fair, get your own material and do cloning and selection yourself, rather than looking for excuses.

Carsten


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Offlineflugelizor
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Re: Legal issues with selling mushroom cultures. [Re: Mycelio]
    #9710473 - 01/31/09 10:02 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

I agree with Mycelio
If a mushroom farmer needs a good solid culture to start his business he can either pay the guy who worked long and hard making sure that strain works good for him, or he can steal it.
Lots of people today have the attitude that "if it's possible to take someone's work without paying them, it's OK".
Software, music, cultures ... this stuff is very easy to steal. Not that bad if for personal use.
But the real damage is done when you resell.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Legal issues with selling mushroom cultures. [Re: flugelizor]
    #9710843 - 01/31/09 11:32 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

On page 256-257 in Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms Paul Stamets says,"...Patenting a mushroom strain because it produces a convex cap would be like trying to patent a tree for having a vertical trunk, or a corn variety for producing a cylindrical cob."




That was in 1993, before he patented all his strains.

Anything grown from spores would have a different DNA signature.
RR


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Legal issues with selling mushroom cultures. [Re: Mycelio]
    #9710872 - 01/31/09 11:39 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Dude, that was four years ago. I've since realized that growing mushrooms is for fags.

Thanks for your input, though.


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Re: Legal issues with selling mushroom cultures. [Re: Mycelio]
    #9711119 - 01/31/09 12:36 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

flugelizor said:
I agree with Mycelio
If a mushroom farmer needs a good solid culture to start his business he can either pay the guy who worked long and hard making sure that strain works good for him, or he can steal it.





I think mycology might be just a bit different than media.  Since sporation changes the DNA as RR so clearly states then it obviously doesn't violate DNA fingerprint patents but what about Stamet's non-sporative cultivations?

Those mushrooms form the old growth forest are extremely hard to get without getting them from Stamet's (At least until we get them going en masse).

What I want to see is a copyleft applied to Genetics of every mushroom we can think of.  With practice doing this copyleftability to gourmet and edibles we can easily apply them to  Psilocybins once they are legalized (Because with limitations to spore sharing DNA always changes anyway).

This will make it difficult for some pharmaceutical dickwad to turn the mushrooms into a pharmy monopoly and ensure that there are viable strong and healthy strains available to amatuers at reasonable cost and ensure they will provide the same.

Right now we have it good because we've got a symbiosis with ethical mycology suppliers and everyone has a sort LSD Sunshine Orange attitude about mycology.  We've eveolved and adapted to the witch-hunt but if the witch hunt ends or evolves more violent/aggresive evils then what may keep integrity from going the way of Criminal Syndications is Copylefts.

Don't take me too seriously.  I'm a preachy jackass who loves GNU, Freedom of INfromation, and Copyleft philosophy.  I'm not being sarcastic even if I am...err...something like that.

I'm not talking about stealing anything from anyone.  I'm just wondering if there is another, experienced ametuer (or even proffesional)mycologist, who love copyleft/GNU/FoI as much as I do and has any ideas.

Quote:


Lots of people today have the attitude that "if it's possible to take someone's work without paying them, it's OK".




That's largely oversimplifying the matter.  I'm a proud pirate but I directly support artists.  You really want to understand how that can be PM me and I'll start a thread in the relevant section explaining it.  I've done those kinds of threads before and they've turned out very productive and informative (For all...including myself) so I may just do that anyway.  For now I'm going to skip the moral commentary in lieu of creating such a thread.

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
Dude, that was four years ago. 




I resurrected this thread realising it's age but out of a rather tangential interest.


Quote:

Mycelio said:
You are talking about making money with other peoples work. Be fair, get your own material and do cloning and selection yourself, rather than looking for excuses.

Carsten




That's perfectly reasonable but copyleft patents for the process would be as much as the DNA.  So that some greedy dickhead couldn't charge unreasonable and exorbitant prices while witholding scientific discovery.  It doesn't usually happen in the field of science but occasionally when there's lots of money to be had...hmm...that sounds so damn familiar...who the hell might I be talking about?  It's definitely not Stamets that's for sure.

The issue goes both ways really.  When copyrights/patents are awarded then the discoverer gets wealthy and rightfully so.  Six months later we realise his patent was completely bullshit and uninformative.  SO the man continues to maintain monopoly and inhibit scientific discovery.

I just think that there might be a few other individuals who love GNU as much as I do and would want to collaborate a bit to develop a Mycology specific copy-left available to amateurs and professionals alike who share the sentiment.  This isn't a political debate.


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OfflineMycelio
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Re: Legal issues with selling mushroom cultures. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #9711816 - 01/31/09 03:02 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Alright, I didn't realize you posted it that long ago.

Carsten


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Re: Legal issues with selling mushroom cultures. [Re: Chakravanti]
    #9711970 - 01/31/09 03:35 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

That's largely oversimplifying the matter.  I'm a proud pirate but I directly support artists.  You really want to understand how that can be PM me and I'll start a thread in the relevant section explaining it.  I've done those kinds of threads before and they've turned out very productive and informative (For all...including myself) so I may just do that anyway.  For now I'm going to skip the moral commentary in lieu of creating such a thread.



Let's seperate those subjects. Breeding mushrooms, selecting and creating spawn makes you run into the same problems like when developing software or making music. Proud pirates who support artist by how much they like to give would solve that, but do not exist in noticeable amounts yet.


For the DNA and patent issue, I agree totally, though I'd prefer to see a change in patent laws, protecting us from abuse instead of having the community filing thousands of patents for the public.


Carsten


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Re: Legal issues with selling mushroom cultures. [Re: Mycelio]
    #9712142 - 01/31/09 04:19 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Let's seperate those subjects. Breeding mushrooms, selecting and creating spawn makes you run into the same problems like when developing software or making music. Proud pirates who support artist by how much they like to give would solve that, but do not exist in noticeable amounts yet.


For the DNA and patent issue, I agree totally, though I'd prefer to see a change in patent laws, protecting us from abuse instead of having the community filing thousands of patents for the public.


Carsten




We're certainly on the same page.

I thinkit seperates as follows though:

1.Scientific research. (As copyrights cover now

2.DNA (Bullshit patents that, as RR so noteably pointed out...are worthless if only inhibitory to scientific and natural evolution)

3.Proven Methodological results (As patents cover now)

I think 1 can be covered with preservative copylefts.  Such as, work may be freely distributed and modified in so far as much as all scientific research, wrok, data, and conclusions are preserved.  I.e content must be preserved but may be added to.

For example.  I've got a shaggy parasol that comes up under some pine tree in my backyard.  If they come up this spring/summer/fall (?) then I will harvest them and do strain isolation until I've got as many strains as I can from it.  I'll make triple masters and store them.  Then I will post the pitri development for each in a grow log and offer free cultures to anyone willing to contribute to the effort to discover which strain produces the best results.  As incentive to participate I will reward all participants will a collection of the best strain isolates after they have been discovered. 

Everyone will post their grow logs in the same grow log with an alphanumerical strain indexing system I will coordinate before initial culture distribution.  Participation means that all work posted becomes so copylefted including pictures and writings which I will archive on my computer and back up elsewhere.

The work, knowledge, strain development, strains will all be freely distributed.  Any individual may charge for postage, tools, media, labor, but no intellectual fee may be charged.  'Free your mind' so to speak. 

The work may be commented upon, summarized, added to, and even edited providing it is noted as being an edit with a reference to a distribution of the original work or that the edit changes only the format but not the intellectual content of the work.

In the end I'll make a PDF of the final work and distribute it with each culture which must retain the original alphanumeric index or follow the system of alphanumeric indexing for sporeation etc. to identify and preserve the strains history.

Where GNU is highly inapplicable to this sort of work because software is very different than scientific research and strain tracking.  The only thing that is lacking from this system I devised is DNA footprinting which would help immensely here to create a system of verifying the index against actual possesed mycelium and it completely relies upon the integrity and meticulousness of the participants.

This is where DNA footprinting is properly used and not abused. It provides room for profiteering while preventing anyone from ever abusing the intellectual chaining.

Yeah, a lwayer would be real helpful.  You know...I may just contact the FSF about this.  I'm sure they'de be interested in extending the philosophy to scientific research if it hasn't already been done...

I'm going to go dig around there a while.  Let me know what you think of my very loose proposal.


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