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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: qman]
    #24764194 -

no one wants to talk about ideographs.

Enlil said:
qman said:
If those views are not dismissed by the majority of society, there's nothing you can do to stop it.


This is true as well.  If society believes that a mystical sky faerie wants women to be subjugated, that's what's going to happen.  That's exactly what does happen in societies that have that belief.



yes, belief is a powerful thing.

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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: akira_akuma]
    #24764292 -

Enlil said:
Tipote said:
I meant democracy in terms of the court of public opinion. I don't have faith that these ideas will be fairly analysed in public discourse and revealed to be pure idiocy.


Do you have more faith that the government will objectively and fairly decide what ideas are fit for public discussion?


That's the real decision, isn't it?  Who should decide?  The government, or the public?  If you don't have faith in the public, would you have more in the government? 



The funny thing is that he states that government and law enforcement are part of the "power structure" that creates the racial inequality in the first place, yet it wants those people in power to decide what groups are entitled to exist. :rofl2:

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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: qman] * 2
    #24764338 -

thats a dumb argument.

you could have said the same thing about the civil rights movement. "why does MLK want the govt who is racist against them to be the ones who give them rights?"


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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24764368 -

The Ecstatic said:
thats a dumb argument.

you could have said the same thing about the civil rights movement. "why does MLK want the govt who is racist against them to be the ones who give them rights?"


You're not making a good analogy, MLK did not say the government needs to silence certain groups of people so he can win in the court of public opinion.

Tip is asking for the government to break its own laws to meet his concerns, MLK never had that goal. He was obtaining his goals through a legal process, not tyranny.

Edited by qman (11/06/17 06:22 PM)

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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: Tipote]
    #24764371 -

Tipote said:
...
Protecting Nazis by saying its just about free speech normalises their positions. As we have already seen repeatedly, far too much people think either racism doesn't exist or if it does its just natural and no problem.
...


The problem is that when they are not doing anything
then it is a matter of free speech
and it becomes an issue to far more than just white supremacists

People who follow the Islamic faith have freedom of religion,
they can believe what they want despite the dangerous aspects of those beliefs
and despite the fact that terrorists base their actions on the same set of beliefs
they are not to be punished simply for adhering to the beliefs

this is where things like calling people nazi apologists for standing up for free speech causes issues
it is not dissimilar from statements calling all Islamists terrorists or terrorist supporters because some are terrorists

defense of freedom of speech, even if that freedom is being exploited by nazis,
is not arguing in favour of the beliefs of nazis

the issue is that the NeoNazi demonstrators in the US
are people from the US
if what they are doing is not in itself an arrestable offense
there is no real way to deal with it
and physically attacking them because the state won't punish them
only legitimizes their position as one of a free speech matter

to frame this a bit differently
if the Nazi issue in the US
were one of German immigrants rather than US-born citizens
would probably be comfortable calling for an immigration ban from Germany to the US
and think that the US government should be doing what they can
to keep nazi supporters from traveling to the US for political demonstrations

The US provides its citizens specific rights and protections from the government,
among which is the non-violent support and expression of potentially harmful ideas
this can lead to some detestable scenarios in terms of who 'gets to' express what
but the alternative would likely be worse

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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24764381 -

MLK talked of acceptance. so calling non-racist people racist would be silly to him. consider the fact that this is occurring and that that is what certain people want the government to create legislation around, so that some people can 'proselytize' against white people easier, and subjugate them more- if MLK wanted the "superstructure" (him and his inkling attraction for Marxist thought- which i don't think influenced him enough to consider "super-structures") to flip, he wouldn't have used non-violent "revolution", because that, any revolutionary Marxist would concede, meets not their standard for revolution of the super-structure- but then again, there are always these contentions- suppose MLK was one of those "slow-burner" Marxists (which i don't think, by the way), his plan worked- but now it's turned into something he himself "preached" against, and that is unacceptance of white people.

here is where you say "there is no unacceptance of white people".



shush. the fact is, there is almost a gaslighting against "what is perceived" as 'white supremacy' and 'racists', but they are just 'white identitarians', (sorta in the same vein as your black identitarians, or gender identitarians), and you cannot even look up say "anti-white discrimination" without finding all sorts of shit about whites being supposedly all racist...just look

http://www.apa.org/science/about/psa/2015/12/online-racial-discrimination.aspx
top result^

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1390205/Whites-suffer-racism-blacks-Study-shows-white-people-believe-discriminated-against.html
wiped^ (removed by the staff, but ultimately, because it's about white's "feeling" (being) discriminated against
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1043717/One-whites-claim-victims-racism.html
^more wiped
http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/out-of-sight-out-of-mind-2/
^yes, tragic, the government doesn't give a fuck about them, and nor do the liberals in Ontario. hmmmmm. love it. love the hypocrisy. but that's Canada.


look at this -- https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/07/21/white-people-think-racism-is-getting-worse-against-white-people/?utm_term=.67bd57b33782

in the comments

I'm white, professional, and well past middle age. I grew up blue-collar. Most of my (male) schoolmates went to the cops, the firemen, or the bent-nose boys. Among the cops (since we're addressing police/civilian relations here), there was an ingrained and indelible race prejudice -- against EVERYONE who wasn't white (and preferably Irish or Italian Catholic). 

That bias still exists, as far as I can tell. And it's been layered with another, and more-universally-dangerous bias: These days, it seems to me that cops are biased against NON-cops. There may be (and probably are) Black, Asian, Latino cops on a force; they probably get along, and regard each other as "brother" or "sister". Brother or sister COPS, that is. But we civilians are generally regarded as a nuisance, and probably a threat.

If you wonder how this came to be, consider the difference between an urban or suburban police station in the 50s and a police station now. Back then, the doors were open, and you walked in and stated your business to a senior officer behind a desk. It was very impressive, at least to a 10-year-old kid. Nowadays, you walk into a deserted lobby, with multiple CCTV cameras, and a large window of inch-thick bulletproof plastic. You ring a bell, and someone on the other side of the window asks "how can I help you?". If you have to hand anything over, it goes through a curved slot at the base of the window. You have to be buzzed-in if you need to actually SEE someone, through what look like blast-proof doors. And then there's the metal detector. And this is in a nice little bedroom community less than an hour out of NYC.

When you have a group that's allowed to isolate itself from the rest of society -- and give them arrest power, and the ability to kill with impunity --- it's no surprise to find a sense of "us and them".

someone responds.

"Do not assume your experiences and biases reflect upon anyone else - they are for you to own."

uhh....then what is everyone doing then trying to presume everything is white people's fault in History, that's evil and bad, and trying to make them pay for it all, all the time?

see the hypocrisy? see the racism? no...no you don't. because you're ... you know.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_supremacy
^top result (i'm looking for "anti-white discrimination")



https://blackgirlnerds.com/essay-black-and-white-discrimination/

^ the ONLY sense making link...from a BLACK PERSON. someone who is African American, a POC, black complexion, she (?) made this. and it's telling the stellar truth.

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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: qman]
    #24764502 -

qman said:
The Ecstatic said:
thats a dumb argument.

you could have said the same thing about the civil rights movement. "why does MLK want the govt who is racist against them to be the ones who give them rights?"


You're not making a good analogy, MLK did not say the government needs to silence certain groups of people so he can win in the court of public opinion.

Tip is asking for the government to break its own laws to meet his concerns, MLK never had that goal. He was obtaining his goals through a legal process, not tyranny.


Quote:
“First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.”


- MLK, Birmingham Jail 1963


But please, whitewash MLK for the exact reasons hes decrying in thar quote.


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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24764534 -

racism = going nowhere

civil rights = achieved


let's not keep quoted the dead men of society. seriously, it's annoying...like they speak for us.

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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: akira_akuma]
    #24764560 -

no no no, we need to cling to the ideals of dead men, so long as theyre the right dead men.


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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24764597 -

The Ecstatic said:
qman said:
The Ecstatic said:
thats a dumb argument.

you could have said the same thing about the civil rights movement. "why does MLK want the govt who is racist against them to be the ones who give them rights?"


You're not making a good analogy, MLK did not say the government needs to silence certain groups of people so he can win in the court of public opinion.

Tip is asking for the government to break its own laws to meet his concerns, MLK never had that goal. He was obtaining his goals through a legal process, not tyranny.


Quote:
“First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.”


- MLK, Birmingham Jail 1963


But please, whitewash MLK for the exact reasons hes decrying in thar quote.


I'm not sure what his disappointment in "the white moderate" has to do with the discussion.

If you have a point, please make it.

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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: qman] * 1
    #24764612 -

The point is the court of public opinion is not the end all be all  nor the arbiter of morality.


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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24764632 -

The Ecstatic said:
no no no, we need to cling to the ideals of dead men, so long as theyre the right dead men.


no, none of them.

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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24764649 -

The Ecstatic said:
The point is the court of public opinion is not the end all be all  nor the arbiter of morality.


Exactly, now explain to Tip that the government doesn't have to violate the Constitution to make sure "the court of public opinion" doesn't go into a direction that makes him insecure.

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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: Tipote] * 1
    #24764679 -

For whatever it's worth, I agree with Enlil (and a few others).  Nearly every type of speech should be allowed, even if you disagree with it.  That's the whole premise of freedom of speech.  Anyone in the world is free to say inoffensive things whatever country they're from; only those countries where freedom of speech is cherished can you say offensive things.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: qman] * 2
    #24764743 -

qman said:
The Ecstatic said:
The point is the court of public opinion is not the end all be all  nor the arbiter of morality.


Exactly, now explain to Tip that the government doesn't have to violate the Constitution to make sure "the court of public opinion" doesn't go into a direction that makes him insecure.


I'm gonna assume that youre trying to argue that keeping Richard Spencer from speaking at a public university is against the Constitution or something.

But no. We restrict speech all the time. I dont want to hear screeching from the alt right about free speech when yall were threatening to run over BLM protesters a few months ago if they made your commute a little longer.

Let me say it again: you dont give a flying fuck about free speech. but this is your smokescreen. keep thinking youre a martyr for freedom as you carry water for nazis.


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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #24764791 -

nazi just a buzz word.


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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24764887 -

The Ecstatic said:
qman said:
The Ecstatic said:
The point is the court of public opinion is not the end all be all  nor the arbiter of morality.


Exactly, now explain to Tip that the government doesn't have to violate the Constitution to make sure "the court of public opinion" doesn't go into a direction that makes him insecure.


I'm gonna assume that youre trying to argue that keeping Richard Spencer from speaking at a public university is against the Constitution or something.

But no. We restrict speech all the time. I dont want to hear screeching from the alt right about free speech when yall were threatening to run over BLM protesters a few months ago if they made your commute a little longer.

Let me say it again: you dont give a flying fuck about free speech. but this is your smokescreen. keep thinking youre a martyr for freedom as you carry water for nazis.


"argue that keeping Richard Spencer from speaking"

Nice strawman.

"We restrict speech all the time"

Please give us an example of political speech that doesn't incite violence being restricted? In fact Trump potentially incited violence at this own rallies, where was the restriction?

"yall were threatening to rub over BLM protesters"

Only if they restrict one's ability to move and comprise their safety, why would you let yourself to be kidnapped in your own vehicle by a bunch of violent thugs?

"you don't give a flying fuck about free speech"

Sure I do, it doesn't matter if we agree or disagree with the speech, it must be protected. Maybe one day you will feel the same way.

"as you carry water for nazis"

Wouldn't they prefer beer?

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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: qman]
    #24765044 -

im gonna complain about strawmen while creating strawmen because there is zero logical defense of my position.


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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24765216 -

Quick question for everyone here....
Were Nazi's left or right?
What does Nazi stand for?
If you don't know these, your "opinion" on Nazis is uneducated an illigetimate

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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: Psilocamel] * 3
    #24765347 -

thanks for that insightful and original point. None of us has ever considered that before.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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