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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: TempestDnB] * 2
    #24763777 -

TempestDnB said:
Tipote said:
Enlil said:
And after we eradicate the Nazis, we can go to the next social boogieman....then the next.  Eventually, we'll all be proper thinking members of our utopian society.

I'm sorry, Tipote, but your philosophy is as dangerous, if not more so, than the Nazis in this regard.  Violence is not the answer to incorrect or improper speech.  More speech is.


You keep limiting it to speech but I've been quite clear its about organising/mobilising. Nazis don't want dialogue, they want a platform for recruitment.

How is my position more dangerous than Nazism? They want to genocide people, and I approve of their beating :shrug:



I don't think they want to genocide people, I'm pretty sure these neo Nazis just believe that the races should be separated. You need to understand your enemy better and not just assume things about them. They are people just like you, not monsters. At some point in their lives they were convinced that they are in the right, just like you. What you are advocating is fascism hiding behind the guise of social justice. It's kind of scary, the scariest part is that people are blind to it. Blinded by their "righteousness"


I'm pretty sure Nazis don't just think "the races should be separated". Frankly, I think that is a little naive. The fact that you can state it so nonchalantly shows you think its not a hugely unreasonable position to have.. is that correct?

  But I'll humour you for a moment. Lets say that these groups just want the races to be separate and that we should divide the country. How is the country to be divided? Will people be forced to relocate? What if they refuse? What will happen to mixed race families?

If the country is divided into a white and "other", who gets to decide who gets what? Since white people disproportionately have control over large parts of society, they will be able to claim the most. Will people of colour be left to live peacefully in a separate and viable state?

Will the country be divided or will this whole country just be for whites? If it is just a white country, where will everyone be deported to? Will everyone who wants this outcome resist from using violence? When people of colour are dehumanised as vermin etc, do you think respect will be shown to the rights of people of colour?

Will all whites be treated equally?  Will some whites be seen as less pure and others are more pure?

Please read this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism


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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: TempestDnB] * 1
    #24763802 -

All of this focus on race really takes away from humanity. Shouldn't we try to move past putting people into groups based on generalizations about genetic makeup, being that it is far more complex than a few well defined races? Why does this always revolve around melanin, and not the unique journeys that led to each and every one of us? Why are we still putting people into these general groups? That shit is dangerous.


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“How happy is the blameless vestal’s lot! The world forgetting, by the world forgot. Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind! Each pray’r accepted, and each wish resign’d”

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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: Tipote] * 2
    #24763846 -

Tipote said:
You keep limiting it to speech but I've been quite clear its about organising/mobilising. Nazis don't want dialogue, they want a platform for recruitment.


Does it matter?  The right to freely assemble and associate is just as fundamental as the right to speech.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: TempestDnB]
    #24763849 -

TempestDnB said:
But we can be more aware, we've evolved the capacity for it. We can find an even better solution. But that doesn't change the fact that we are the products of infinite suffering.


I agree with you. We can find a better solution and that might go a small way to address the issues of the past.
TempestDnB said:
Well, white people had lots of stuff and power before these other groups. Should white people just give all of their stuff and power to these other groups to even things out?


You seem to come from a position that says white people are entitled because we were in control then. How much do you think the subjugation of other, non-white, people by global Empires has benefitted the old colonial powers..and their descendants in the present day?

Slavery was possible because of a pseudo-scientific classification of humans along the lines of race. By dehumanising black people and others, our societies could take better advantage of them, and not afford them equality under the law. How much wealth do you think exploitation of other people brought?

Winston Churchill treated foreigners like shit. Colonial British India was exporting grain to Britain while millions were dying of starvation in India.

Quote:
Up to 3 million people starved to death while British officials begged Churchill to direct food supplies to the region. He bluntly refused. He raged that it was their own fault for "breeding like rabbits". At other times, he said the plague was "merrily" culling the population.

Skeletal, half-dead people were streaming into the cities and dying on the streets, but Churchill – to the astonishment of his staff – had only jeers for them. This rather undermines the claims that Churchill's imperialism was motivated only by an altruistic desire to elevate the putatively lower races. from here


People of colour have always been in the United States but they've consistently been treated like shit. As you say - the victor writes the history books so is it that farfetched that european settlers would write a history that shows the founding of the country as a purely white european achievement?

TempestDnB said:
Or should we just give this whole thing more time to even out? A few more generations to catch up.. I mean we had slaves 140 years ago. That's just two 70 year olds living and dying. In the big picture not much time has gone by at all.


Thats easy for you to say. You're talking about waiting generations for large groups of people to get over the disadvantages that were forcibly put onto them (a fact not accepted by many even in this thread). This goes beyond slavery, there is an entire history of colonial powers benefiting from the misery of people who looked different. 

I agree slavery wasn't that long ago, because of that we still have people in our society with very old fashioned ideas about black people and those prejudices can quite understandably disadvantage people trying to improve their situation - for example when trying to get a job.

Considering the massive gulf between one groups position over another, how quickly do you expect the disadvantaged group to "catch up" in a race where white people have had a colossal headstart?

When that gulf is the gulf between master and slave, how quickly will attitudes change? There were reparations for white people when they lost their slaves, but reparations for slavery is seen as ridiculous by many. The differences are perpetuated year by year because when things slightly slightly change, white people say they are discriminated against.

Don't you see how these positions can be perpetuated generation to generation?
TempestDnB said:
It's actually amazing the amount of progression that's been made.
Sorry about the giant quote, I just wanted to make it clear what I was replying to and I'm on my phone and too damn lazy to pick things out of this giant quote


I agree there has been a huge progression but for some communities of colour, the progression looks much slower.

No problem about the giant quote. Sorry for the giant message.


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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: Tipote]
    #24763852 -

No, I think it's an unreasonable position to have. But that is what I have seen these neo Nazis say when interviewed. I'm sure some of them want genocide, but I suppose those aren't the guys they're sticking in front of cameras. Im just saying that maybe you should look into what these people are saying and what they believe, instead of just assuming their agenda. That way you can form a better argument, or modify your current one.
These people are not going to get what they want, it is such a small minority. But it seems like a really big movement when the media and people on the internet talk about it constantly. Hell, if anything you're helping them grow and further their movement with all of this free advertising.


--------------------

“How happy is the blameless vestal’s lot! The world forgetting, by the world forgot. Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind! Each pray’r accepted, and each wish resign’d”

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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: TempestDnB]
    #24763868 -

TempestDnB said:
All of this focus on race really takes away from humanity.


It revolves around race because that has been the world order for a long time. It is a privilege for to put race aside, people of colour have never had that luxury.

TempestDnB said:
Shouldn't we try to move past putting people into groups based on generalizations about genetic makeup, being that it is far more complex than a few well defined races?


I agree, Nazis and other racists, don't.

TempestDnB said:
Why does this always revolve around melanin, and not the unique journeys that led to each and every one of us? Why are we still putting people into these general groups? That shit is dangerous.


I agree but frankly it was white European colonial powers who set up these categories, with whiteness at the top. Which is why we were talking previously about how whiteness is seen as beauty and success.. hence all the people that try to bleach their skin to fit a white model of beauty standards.

Some people here insist that genetic differences between white and black people are so significant that we can categorise them into neat little boxes. I strongly disagree.

The history is there and all we can do is try to address the imbalances it causes on this planet into the present.


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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: TempestDnB]
    #24763892 -

TempestDnB said:
Im just saying that maybe you should look into what these people are saying and what they believe, instead of just assuming their agenda. That way you can form a better argument, or modify your current one.


I don't just assume, I do spend time a great deal of time trying to learn about them. I agree one should know one's enemy.

Quote:
These people are not going to get what they want, it is such a small minority. But it seems like a really big movement when the media and people on the internet talk about it constantly. Hell, if anything you're helping them grow and further their movement with all of this free advertising.


they are a small minority but so were the followers of Hitler, Franco and Mussolini. They started as a bunch of nutjobs but they did well get their narratives to dominate.

for multiple reasons, these groups are growing quickly. The fact that some here are in denial that Nazis exist in the US at all, or that they have used violence a lot already, suggests an unwillingness to address the issues.

Also the fact that our society treats white terrorists differently to brown terrorists doesn't bode well as some groups profit from the state turning a blind eye.


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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: Enlil]
    #24763909 -

Enlil said:
Tipote said:
You keep limiting it to speech but I've been quite clear its about organising/mobilising. Nazis don't want dialogue, they want a platform for recruitment.


Does it matter?  The right to freely assemble and associate is just as fundamental as the right to speech.


Does that apply to groups like da'esh?

What if we just said that all Da'esh want to do is express their free speech in advocating for their own caliphate which extends across the world? With their version of Sharia as the law. :shrug:

I do understand your position and I used to agree with it, but now I just see it as protecting the rise of these groups.


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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: TempestDnB] * 1
    #24763920 -

I'm not a product of rape or genocide.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: Tipote] * 1
    #24763931 -

Tipote said:
Does that apply to groups like da'esh?

What if we just said that all Da'esh want to do is express their free speech in advocating for their own caliphate which extends across the world? With their version of Sharia as the law. :shrug:

I do understand your position and I used to agree with it, but now I just see it as protecting the rise of these groups.


They have the right to advocate for that position.  Why shouldn't they?


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: Enlil]
    #24763935 -

Enlil said:
And after we eradicate the Nazis, we can go to the next social boogieman....then the next.



EGGSACTLY!

EXACTLY. the next social boogieman up next...probably white people, then what, racist black people, then racist Chinese next? what else? there's gotta be more things to address, more big problems in humanity.

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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #24763950 -

Quote:
technically true, but deceptive.
A short* time later:


i'm not saying deceptive is BETTER. dude. if it were up to me, propaganda would be the last thing on my mind ever, and art, and the artistic creative endeavor would be foremost! how much do you really get about me, gee, i thought myself clear on this before. i hate politics. much rather do art. people shit on art though and inhale politics like a fine cuban cigar- people love this shit.

and some people use deception, see the media, the government ect....

i say to fight them, you need to fight fire with fire...not that i think it's all that great, or that i'd prefer it. just that, without fighting back against their deception, through deception, you'll never convince anyone to think outside of THEIR deception. but you believe whatever you want man. i see your point- but i just don't think you are getting mine.

they started the deception, and people are already deceived. they think anyone telling them different is trying to deceive them- maybe they need to be deceived again, so they can realize and look at what deceptions are around them, then decide for themselves what to believe, once the deception has been realized. all that needs to occur is to lead them on into discovering that they are already being lied to, then the ball will get rolling automatically, from there. you don't need to "win" with your deception in this case, just drive the notion home that they are being deceived. and if they already consider the truth deception, then the only way to break through that conditioning is with de-conditioning, which will require one to "deceive" in order to promulgate a facet of the current paradigm which allows the deception to take hold in a new way, one that is directed by moi, for example, more than "the enemy". this "new deception" maybe will be finally seen as deception (even if it's a terribly done one, point is...) and that realizing, if led into the unaware of deception, will bring on further questioning to the reasoning they were using that conditioned them to hold up the other deception as truth.

TLDR it sounds more complicated than it is.

if someone lies about one thing, interject that lie with a new lie that disrupts the old lie and invalidates it, through the invalidity but similarity/recognizability in the viewers mind-- THEN, when they see the new lie injected as a deception, they can be swayed to look at the previous lies as possible deception, if they are similar to the one they've realized you had (or whoever) injected in with the previous ones.

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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: Tipote] * 1
    #24763956 -

Tipote said:
qman said:
"benefiting from power structures that benefit people that look like us"
You keep on using vague terms like "power structures", what is a "power structure" and how does it benefit just white people? 


When you ask questions, I dont know how genuine you are in trying to understand my answer. I feel like I've explained the idea quite clearly but that you've dismissed it instantly.

Does the following wikipedia definition make any more sense to you?

Quote:
A power structure is an overall system of influence relationships between any individual and every other individual within any selected group of people. A description of a power structure would capture the way in which power or authority is distributed between people within groups such as a government, nation, institution, organization, or a society.[1] Such structures are of interest to various fields, including sociology, government, economics, and business. A power structure may be formal and intentionally constructed to maximize values like fairness or efficiency, as in a hierarchical organization wherein every entity, except one, is subordinate to a single other entity. Conversely, a power structure may be an informal set of roles, such as those found in a dominance hierarchy in which members of a social group interact, often aggressively, to create a ranking system. A culture that is organised in a dominance hierarchy is a dominator culture, the opposite of an egalitarian culture of partnership. A visible, dominant group or elite that holds power or authority within a power structure is often referred to as being the Establishment. Power structures are fluid, with changes occurring constantly, either slowly or rapidly, evolving or revolutionary, peacefully or violently.


Quote:
By "white supremacy" I do not mean to allude only to the self-conscious racism of white supremacist hate groups. I refer instead to a political, economic and cultural system in which whites overwhelmingly control power and material resources, conscious and unconscious ideas of white superiority and entitlement are widespread, and relations of white dominance and non-white subordination are daily reenacted across a broad array of institutions and social settings.[28][29]



The fact is that the structures in society are disproportionately dominated by white people. If you assume that societal inequalities are only a natural consequence from genetic differences then you would see any actions to make society more representative as purely artificial and unfair... Which you do.

qman said:
"benefit from racist structures in society"
Another generalization.


How so?

I'm not saying every structure in society is racist, but racism does pervade throughout society. If you don't believe racism or exists or is natural and unchangeable then you'll dismiss everything I say on the subject.

qman said:
"I have white privilege"
Evidence?



This may an interesting / excruciating read for you..

White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack


qman said:
"I do my best to be aware of my own blindspots on race"
No you don't, you do your best to make huge generalizations and than slander anyone that disagrees with your theories on racial issues.


Besides calling you a racist, what are you meaning by slander?
Which huge generalisations am I unfairly making?


The definition of "power structure" is so vague that it could essentially be applied in almost any set of circumstances, it's why you use it.

https://www.deanza.edu/faculty/lewisjulie/White%20Priviledge%20Unpacking%20the%20Invisible%20Knapsack.pdf

This is hilarious- "I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color".

"I can be late to a meeting without having lateness reflect on my race"

Why aren't you embarrassed to even post such nonsense?  If someone wants to make everything wrong in their life with racism, they're going to have a miserable existence.

"Besides calling you a racist"

That would be a flame, but you're also suggesting that people that don't agree with your perspective on racial issues are "blind", that's a form of slander.

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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: qman]
    #24763964 -

yeh, i think if on cannot call someone "a liar" without catching a ban, you shouldn't be able to just go "you're a racist" with impunity.

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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: Tipote]
    #24763987 -

Tipote said:
qman said:
"Their speech and organization will lead directly to violence"
Pure speculation.

"their agenda can take form into actual acts of violence"
More speculation.

"Nazis are going to be violent"
More speculation.


Nazism is inherently violent, I dont know how much denial you have to be in to reject this.

qman said:
"The police should be breaking down their networks"
So you truly want a fascist state. :huxleyfacepalm:


Is it also fascist for me to want the police to break down da'esh networks?

These groups are terrorists. I thought youve said previously I was terrorist apologist. I can try to analyse why certain people do certain things but it doesn't excuse those actions at all. Why are you so defensive of Nazis and their allies?

Is it that controversial that I think these groups should be broken apart by law enforcement?


If groups are breaking the laws then those individuals will be arrested, correct?  So why would law enforcement need to break up groups that have NOT broken any laws?

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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: akira_akuma]
    #24764025 -

akira_akuma said:
yeh, i think if on cannot call someone "a liar" without catching a ban, you shouldn't be able to just go "you're a racist" with impunity.


Agreed, but I haven't seen anyone do that.  Nor have I see anyone report someone doing that.


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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #24764069 -

Enlil said:
Tipote said:
Does that apply to groups like da'esh?
What if we just said that all Da'esh want to do is express their free speech in advocating for their own caliphate which extends across the world? With their version of Sharia as the law. :shrug:
I do understand your position and I used to agree with it, but now I just see it as protecting the rise of these groups.


They have the right to advocate for that position.  Why shouldn't they?


So you would defend an ISIS march in the US? Realistically, would they receive the same amount of state protection as Nazi and white supremacist groups?

Frankly, these fascist ideologies that legitimise genocide and slavery as a political position are just not ok. I don't think its a sign of an enlightened society that sits down and opens these topics again in the name of free speech. I understand the principle, but how far does the principle defend the rejection of that principle? Surely, these fascist ideologies directly contradict the principles the US was founded on? Or doesn't that matter when it comes to free speech? 

Quote:
qman said:If groups are breaking the laws then those individuals will be arrested, correct?  So why would law enforcement need to break up groups that have NOT broken any laws?


Not always. The groups in CHarlottesville committed a bunch of crimes and some of them were only arrested because of the efforts of antifascist organisers to identify them.. whereas the black guy they beat the fuck out of was facing felony charges. I'm pretty sure it was outside a police station too.


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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: akira_akuma]
    #24764077 -

akira_akuma said:
Enlil said:
And after we eradicate the Nazis, we can go to the next social boogieman....then the next.


EGGSACTLY!

EXACTLY. the next social boogieman up next...probably white people, then what, racist black people, then racist Chinese next? what else? there's gotta be more things to address, more big problems in humanity.


why white people and racist black people and racist chinese?

if genocide is part of their political platform, they are not legitimate.


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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: Tipote] * 1
    #24764079 -

ISIS should be able to march in the U.S.  I don't see any reason they shouldn't.  They have an ideology that you disagree with, but is that enough to silence them? 

Frankly, I'm surprised to see you take this position, and it's disappointing.  If you believe that Nazi beliefs are so incorrect, why would you be afraid to have them discussed in public?  Isn't that the best way to illuminate the idiocy of those beliefs?


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Re: Nazis are cunts [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #24764101 -

Enlil said:
If you believe that Nazi beliefs are so incorrect, why would you be afraid to have them discussed in public?  Isn't that the best way to illuminate the idiocy of those beliefs?


No, I don't think thats the best way to illuminate their idiocy, I think the ideology and the history of that ideology has already proven the point.

Protecting Nazis by saying its just about free speech normalises their positions. As we have already seen repeatedly, far too much people think either racism doesn't exist or if it does its just natural and no problem.

I think its just not realistic to think that the best ideas rise up to the surface by way of freedom of speech and so called free analysis in public discourse.

Are you so confident that Nazi narratives would be so easily dismissed if just discussed widely in society?

Enlil said:
ISIS should be able to march in the U.S.  I don't see any reason they shouldn't.


As a designated terror group?


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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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