ballsalsa said:

1) Class lines are more important than political labels.

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Quote:

A trove of 13.4 million records exposes ties between Russia and U.S. President Donald Trump’s billionaire commerce secretary, the secret dealings of the chief fundraiser for Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and the offshore interests of the queen of England and more than 120 politicians around the world.

The leaked documents, dubbed the Paradise Papers, show how deeply the offshore financial system is entangled with the overlapping worlds of political players, private wealth and corporate giants, including Apple, Nike, Uber and other global companies that avoid taxes through increasingly imaginative bookkeeping maneuvers.

The offshore industry makes “the poor poorer” and is “deepening wealth inequality,” said Brooke Harrington, a certified wealth manager and Copenhagen Business School professor who is the author of ‘Capital without Borders: Wealth Managers and the One Percent.’

“There is this small group of people who are not equally subject to the laws as the rest of us, and that’s on purpose,” Harrington said. These people “live the dream” of enjoying “the benefits of society without being subject to any of its constraints.”

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Enlil said:

That's not what you said, dude.  You said that ANY violence coming to Nazis is justified. 

That's pretty vile, bro.

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Bubbles85 said:

Every paragraph you write on this site contains text about white this and white that.

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Bubbles85 said:

BBW pretty much summed up what you do continuously in this post.

Bigbadwooof said:

... Hold the reigns of power? Is that what you think I go about doing all day?
Hardly. You act as though white people are a coalition, like a tribe, working against other people. That is a very erroneous approach to take.

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Your disgust for white people and your clear assumption that white people are the problem is fucking obvious.

If any other member of this site harped on about people of any other demographic the way you do about people with white skin, you would have no problem deeming their views to be seated in racism.

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Enlil said:

Why shouldn't they be allowed to mobilize or organize?  Violence is not an appropriate response to speech and organization.

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shivas.wisdom said:

The claim that militant antifascists are the cause of fascist violence is a lie.

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Tipote said:

Bubbles85 said:

Every paragraph you write on this site contains text about white this and white that.

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talking about race doesn't make me racist. See my previous post.

Bubbles85 said:

BBW pretty much summed up what you do continuously in this post.

Bigbadwooof said:

... Hold the reigns of power? Is that what you think I go about doing all day?
Hardly. You act as though white people are a coalition, like a tribe, working against other people. That is a very erroneous approach to take.

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Your disgust for white people and your clear assumption that white people are the problem is fucking obvious.

If any other member of this site harped on about people of any other demographic the way you do about people with white skin, you would have no problem deeming their views to be seated in racism.

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If you read my reply to BBW and to others you will see that I'm not hating white people individually, I'm talking about society-wide biases that culminate in a multitiered society with whites disproportionately on the top. Being oblivious to white privilege means we are complicit by benefiting from power structures that benefit people that look like us, other people who don't.

I've tried to highlight and explain what white privilege but that is racism to you. Most of the people I know in my life are white, do you think I just go around hating every white person I see? (no, I dont..) But I despise the blindness that comes from white privilege and the outrage white people have when its pointed out, white people take it defensively to an extreme that might make you feel like to be told that you benefit from racist structures in society is worse than being on the receiving end of racism. That reflects a sense in which "white feelings" are paramount, regardless of the facts. The fact that you are getting so wound up and defensive just highlights your blindness as a white person. I don't pretend I am separate from this. I have white privilege and I do my best to be aware of my own blindspots on race. Because I have never lived as a black man or woman means I dont have that lived experience from which to draw on. To pretend that I don't receive benefits as a white person in my society would be disingenuous.

Again ..  racism = prejudice + the power to enact it.

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Tipote said:

Enlil said:

Why shouldn't they be allowed to mobilize or organize?  Violence is not an appropriate response to speech and organization.

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Their speech aims to legitimise their ideology as a normalised political position. Their speech and organisation will lead directly to violence and growth. As they build political power, their agenda can take form into actual acts of violence. Providing a social cost for Nazism is important in preventing this.

The way I see it, nothing nice is going to come from Nazism so we should break it when its in its infancy. When its a larger movement, it has a larger capacity to inflict damage on society - particularly on already marginalised communities..but on everyone else too.

The police should be breaking down their networks. If authorities insist on allowing Nazi demonstrations, the police can be the buffer between opposing groups at demonstrations but they stand on the sidelines and watch instead. Infiltration of law enforcement by Nazis and KKK further reduces their credibility.

All tactics should be at our disposal. Physical violence is actually a small part of it. Doxxing and activist journalism has already done a lot to contribute that social cost.

Nazis are going to be violent at one point or another, why would I be against violence against them? People's lives are already on the line. Nazism is inherently violent.

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"Their speech and organization will lead directly to violence"

Pure speculation.

"their agenda can take form into actual acts of violence"

More speculation.

"Nazis are going to be violent"

More speculation.

"The police should be breaking down their networks"

So you truly want a fascist state.

Enlil said:

And after we eradicate the Nazis, we can go to the next social boogieman....then the next.  Eventually, we'll all be proper thinking members of our utopian society.

I'm sorry, Tipote, but your philosophy is as dangerous, if not more so, than the Nazis in this regard.  Violence is not the answer to incorrect or improper speech.  More speech is.

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You keep limiting it to speech but I've been quite clear its about organising/mobilising. Nazis don't want dialogue, they want a platform for recruitment.

How is my position more dangerous than Nazism? They want to genocide people, and I approve of their beating

Structural violence is the rife against many communities in the US but a lot of the posters here deny it even exists.

Will Scarlet said:

Tipote I don't understand how you can be so full of hate.
I'm pretty sure you are not experienced regarding tripping, otherwise you couldn't spew out such prejudice.

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I actually trip quite a bit and, as Enlil alluded to, drug taking isn't that relevant here. I'm actually a pretty mild mannered guy if you got to know me. I didn't realise it was so controversial to be fervently against Nazis

As I've said previously, I'm all in favour of supporting groups like Life after Hate to have that peaceful avenue out of these groups. If Nazis want to give up Nazism then I'm happy. If they don't, then they will pay the social cost from marching through peoples towns, threatening people, inciting violence, inflicting violence etc.

Why are you so outraged about prejudice against Nazis? Have you not had enough liquid LSD pumped into your rectum?

Enlil said:

That's a stupid argument.  What does drug use have to do with hate?

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qman said:

"benefiting from power structures that benefit people that look like us"
You keep on using vague terms like "power structures", what is a "power structure" and how does it benefit just white people? 

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Quote:

A power structure is an overall system of influence relationships between any individual and every other individual within any selected group of people. A description of a power structure would capture the way in which power or authority is distributed between people within groups such as a government, nation, institution, organization, or a society.[1] Such structures are of interest to various fields, including sociology, government, economics, and business. A power structure may be formal and intentionally constructed to maximize values like fairness or efficiency, as in a hierarchical organization wherein every entity, except one, is subordinate to a single other entity. Conversely, a power structure may be an informal set of roles, such as those found in a dominance hierarchy in which members of a social group interact, often aggressively, to create a ranking system. A culture that is organised in a dominance hierarchy is a dominator culture, the opposite of an egalitarian culture of partnership. A visible, dominant group or elite that holds power or authority within a power structure is often referred to as being the Establishment. Power structures are fluid, with changes occurring constantly, either slowly or rapidly, evolving or revolutionary, peacefully or violently.

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Quote:

By "white supremacy" I do not mean to allude only to the self-conscious racism of white supremacist hate groups. I refer instead to a political, economic and cultural system in which whites overwhelmingly control power and material resources, conscious and unconscious ideas of white superiority and entitlement are widespread, and relations of white dominance and non-white subordination are daily reenacted across a broad array of institutions and social settings.[28][29]

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qman said:

"benefit from racist structures in society"
Another generalization.

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qman said:

"I have white privilege"
Evidence?

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qman said:

"I do my best to be aware of my own blindspots on race"
No you don't, you do your best to make huge generalizations and than slander anyone that disagrees with your theories on racial issues.

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qman said:

"Their speech and organization will lead directly to violence"
Pure speculation.

"their agenda can take form into actual acts of violence"
More speculation.

"Nazis are going to be violent"
More speculation.

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qman said:

"The police should be breaking down their networks"
So you truly want a fascist state.

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TempestDnB said:

From an evolutionary stand point, genocide is a normal and successful adaptation for ensuring the success of other living things that share similar genetics. It's crazy unsettling, the world viewed through that ruthless lens of the suffering of life, survival of the fittest. I'm not saying it's good, we have moved beyond a lot of animalistic tactics like that, but from an evolutionary standpoint it will make your genes successful. It makes me sad that reality and the nature of life works in that way. But what makes us unique is our ability to recognize that and conquer it. Sorry about ranting, I was just thinking about how we would be viewed if we lost WWII, how the Nazis would have progressed if they were successful. The winners write the history books right? Sorry, this is off topic and not a reply to anyone, just sharing my thoughts on nazis.

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Tipote said:

Enlil said:

And after we eradicate the Nazis, we can go to the next social boogieman....then the next.  Eventually, we'll all be proper thinking members of our utopian society.

I'm sorry, Tipote, but your philosophy is as dangerous, if not more so, than the Nazis in this regard.  Violence is not the answer to incorrect or improper speech.  More speech is.

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You keep limiting it to speech but I've been quite clear its about organising/mobilising. Nazis don't want dialogue, they want a platform for recruitment.

How is my position more dangerous than Nazism? They want to genocide people, and I approve of their beating

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Tipote said:

qman said:

"benefiting from power structures that benefit people that look like us"
You keep on using vague terms like "power structures", what is a "power structure" and how does it benefit just white people? 

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When you ask questions, I dont know how genuine you are in trying to understand my answer. I feel like I've explained the idea quite clearly but that you've dismissed it instantly.

Does the following wikipedia definition make any more sense to you?

Quote:

A power structure is an overall system of influence relationships between any individual and every other individual within any selected group of people. A description of a power structure would capture the way in which power or authority is distributed between people within groups such as a government, nation, institution, organization, or a society.[1] Such structures are of interest to various fields, including sociology, government, economics, and business. A power structure may be formal and intentionally constructed to maximize values like fairness or efficiency, as in a hierarchical organization wherein every entity, except one, is subordinate to a single other entity. Conversely, a power structure may be an informal set of roles, such as those found in a dominance hierarchy in which members of a social group interact, often aggressively, to create a ranking system. A culture that is organised in a dominance hierarchy is a dominator culture, the opposite of an egalitarian culture of partnership. A visible, dominant group or elite that holds power or authority within a power structure is often referred to as being the Establishment. Power structures are fluid, with changes occurring constantly, either slowly or rapidly, evolving or revolutionary, peacefully or violently.

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Quote:

By "white supremacy" I do not mean to allude only to the self-conscious racism of white supremacist hate groups. I refer instead to a political, economic and cultural system in which whites overwhelmingly control power and material resources, conscious and unconscious ideas of white superiority and entitlement are widespread, and relations of white dominance and non-white subordination are daily reenacted across a broad array of institutions and social settings.[28][29]

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The fact is that the structures in society are disproportionately dominated by white people. If you assume that societal inequalities are only a natural consequence from genetic differences then you would see any actions to make society more representative as purely artificial and unfair... Which you do.

qman said:

"benefit from racist structures in society"
Another generalization.

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How so?

I'm not saying every structure in society is racist, but racism does pervade throughout society. If you don't believe racism or exists or is natural and unchangeable then you'll dismiss everything I say on the subject.

qman said:

"I have white privilege"
Evidence?

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This may an interesting / excruciating read for you..

White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack

qman said:

"I do my best to be aware of my own blindspots on race"
No you don't, you do your best to make huge generalizations and than slander anyone that disagrees with your theories on racial issues.

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Besides calling you a racist, what are you meaning by slander?
Which huge generalisations am I unfairly making?

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