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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Repertoire89]
    #24454561 -

I'll take that as a no.

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Re: ANTIFA (moved) [Re: mescalator]
    #24454568 -

This thread was moved from The Pub.

Reason:
Moved to Political Discussion

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Repertoire89]
    #24454618 -

Repertoire89 said:
Lol, you sound like a Maoist

"WITH US OR AGAINST US"





Quote:
Either you are with us or you're with the enemies of freedom.



Quote:
Either you're with us or you're with the terrorists.




--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

Onehomemission.org
truly make a difference

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Asante]
    #24454636 -

I cant agree with those statements  :shrug:
People should be free to protest the wars etc

Should have invaded Saudi Arabia, considering they're the heartland of Wahabbism, rather than relatively secular Iraq. Afghanistan is another story.

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Asante]
    #24454819 -

Asante said:
I said it before and I'll say it again...






Not judging by the worst, I'm judging by them all. Every sane person is against fascism, but "Antifa" is its own thing, and they don't know what the hell they're doing, as shown by multiple videos in this thread.


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Re: ANTIFA [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #24454940 -

shivas.wisdom said:
It does seem a little hypocritical.

If I understand things, they don't oppose antifa because of their opposition to fascists; instead, they oppose antifa because indiscriminate application of "no platforming" oftens leads to innocent, non-fashy, people being targeted with violence. In response to this, violence towards antifa is not just acceptable, but celebrated.

To that I have to wonder, do they believe that every individual they identify as antifa is personally guilty of this indiscriminate violence? Or perhaps it is guilt through association, where standing with or dressing alike is sufficient to warrant physical removal?

If it is indiscriminate violence that they oppose, and not the fact that antifa is opposed to fascism,  what extra knowledge do they have to know that every blackclad individual being attacked in these celebrated youtube videos was guilty of indiscriminate violence, rather than the victim?

What is the different between antifa indiscriminately grouping all opposition as violent fascists versus anti-antifa indiscriminately grouping all opposition as violent antifascists, if not the groups they indiscriminately target?

Take this thread for example, despite my repeated attempts to admit that I do not support every antifa action outright and that I don't consider anyone I disagree with a nazi, I am continually looped into this group of supporting "throwing homemade bombs at average Trump supporters" and calling everyone I disagree with a "nazi"; and thus, I can only assume, deserving of the same celebrated violence. Exactly the type of indiscriminate actions that these very users claim to oppose. I don't believe I've once called a user on this site nazi or fascist (though I did once insinuate that a member may be friends with a few).

So what am I missing here?



There's some major backpedaling going on here.


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Amanita86 said:
Sui is trying to mod right now.  Kinda like a newborn calf tryin ta stand fer the first time ain’t it..

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: lowbrow] * 1
    #24454956 -

Could you please post direct quotes from Shiva where he says stuff you claim hes now backpedaling away from?
I think hes quite consistent.

I haven't seen this whole pro-numbnut posting of his. He never to my knowledge justified the excesses shown in these videos.

He's clearly antifsacist, but that doesnt make him someone who's all for these excesses.

You guys keep -not getting- that what you see in those videos are excesses by a fringe of Antifa. Antifa is not about harrassing good citizens.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

Onehomemission.org
truly make a difference

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Asante]
    #24454970 -

Shiva: "the sky is blue."

Other1: "he says the sky is brown!"

Other2: "he says the sky is brown!"

Shiva: "I merely said that the sky is light blue."

Other3: "backpedal alert!"


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

Onehomemission.org
truly make a difference

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Eminence]
    #24454977 -

Eminence said:
Asante said:
I said it before and I'll say it again...






Not judging by the worst, I'm judging by them all. Every sane person is against fascism, but "Antifa" is its own thing, and they don't know what the hell they're doing, as shown by multiple videos in this thread.




No, you're doing exactly what I'm meming out to you: you take a small sample group and conclude that all antifa dont know what they're doing.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

Onehomemission.org
truly make a difference

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Asante]
    #24454984 -

And you take a small sample selected for good behavior and claim they are all like that so you can't say anything to eminence.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Asante]
    #24454995 -

Antifa does about as much to stop fascism as alt right people do to push it. Which means not really anything at all. I do wish they would actually do stuff besides just drink 40s and whine.

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Asante] * 1
    #24455130 -

Asante said:
You guys keep -not getting- that what you see in those videos are excesses by a fringe of Antifa. Antifa is not about harrassing good citizens.



You're the one not getting it. Of course Antifa isn't about "harassing good citizens" it's about harassing people they think are fascist but considering all the people they've attacked, tried to force out of a certain area or tried to force to keep quiet, they don't know who real fascists are. The way you speak makes it seem like you think Antifa represents the average person who is against fascism (basically anyone who knows what it is).


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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Asante]
    #24455138 -

shivas.wisdom said:
Admittedly, the beginning of Trumps presidency was a clusterfuck of aggression from both camps, and I can't say I necessarily support every action claimed by 'antifa', but I also don't know enough to be willing to denounce them either.

But let me assure you that, at least in the anarchist circles I run in, a distinction is held between your average Republican, and the crypto-fascist (sometimes out and out fascist) members of the alt-right. Part of antifascist action is intelligence gathering, and familiar faces are popping up at every "free speech protest". This is actually an intentional tactic used by legitimate fascists (and other political movements), entryism.

Show me the antifa counter demonstration, seemingly against your average Trump supporters, and I will show you the fascist elements within. Guilty by association, I suppose. If you are comfortable marching with fascists, don't be surprised if you are mistaken for one.



Right here.  He basically called all Trump supporters guilty by association fascists and implied it's okay to shut them up by force, and at the end of it implies support antifa or you're a fascist.

Then completely backpedaled here.
shivas.wisdom said:
It does seem a little hypocritical.

If I understand things, they don't oppose antifa because of their opposition to fascists; instead, they oppose antifa because indiscriminate application of "no platforming" oftens leads to innocent, non-fashy, people being targeted with violence. In response to this, violence towards antifa is not just acceptable, but celebrated.

To that I have to wonder, do they believe that every individual they identify as antifa is personally guilty of this indiscriminate violence? Or perhaps it is guilt through association, where standing with or dressing alike is sufficient to warrant physical removal?

If it is indiscriminate violence that they oppose, and not the fact that antifa is opposed to fascism,  what extra knowledge do they have to know that every blackclad individual being attacked in these celebrated youtube videos was guilty of indiscriminate violence, rather than the victim?

What is the different between antifa indiscriminately grouping all opposition as violent fascists versus anti-antifa indiscriminately grouping all opposition as violent antifascists, if not the groups they indiscriminately target?

Take this thread for example, despite my repeated attempts to admit that I do not support every antifa action outright and that I don't consider anyone I disagree with a nazi, I am continually looped into this group of supporting "throwing homemade bombs at average Trump supporters" and calling everyone I disagree with a "nazi"; and thus, I can only assume, deserving of the same celebrated violence. Exactly the type of indiscriminate actions that these very users claim to oppose. I don't believe I've once called a user on this site nazi or fascist (though I did once insinuate that a member may be friends with a few).

So what am I missing here?




--------------------
Amanita86 said:
Sui is trying to mod right now.  Kinda like a newborn calf tryin ta stand fer the first time ain’t it..

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Eminence]
    #24455143 -

They're just hiding from accountability, I would approve of groups like this beig labelled terrorist organizations considering that is essentially their platforn (to use violence and intimidation)

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Cyrus19]
    #24455153 -

Cyrus19 said:




You could easily change it and substitute "wage slavery" for "property forfeiture" and "starvation" for "imprisonment"


--------------------

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Eminence] * 1
    #24455215 -

Eminence said:
Asante said:
I said it before and I'll say it again...






Not judging by the worst, I'm judging by them all. Every sane person is against fascism, but "Antifa" is its own thing, and they don't know what the hell they're doing, as shown by multiple videos in this thread.



"Every sane person is against fascism"

Apparently not, otherwise why would we need this "special" group of intellectuals called ANTIFA?  They're the only people insightful enough to recognize this huge fascism threat today that the other 99.99% of the population just ignores it, I mean everyone can see the harm that Ben Shapiro causes to the world.  :flowstone:

"they don't know what the hell they're doing"

Just because they support Militant Islam that pisses on women, homosexuals and non-believers while protesting liberal Muslims who want to embrace Western values doesn't mean they don't know what they're doing.  :rofl2:

Edited by qman (07/03/17 08:40 PM)

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Asante]
    #24455252 -

Asante said:
You guys keep -not getting- that what you see in those videos are excesses by a fringe of Antifa. Antifa is not about harrassing good citizens.



No offense, but actually talking to people involved in that group just makes it look like another psuedo-anarchist circle jerk.  All they're doing is screwing the poor (seriously), offering a solid excuse for an overbearing police presence and giving people a reason to finally shoot themselves some "libtards."

It's really going to suck for the kid who decides to smash up a storefront because Chomsky said bad things about global investment strategies, only to find out that the owner is waiting for them with a riot gun.  And, of course, all of the people who egged the poor bastard on are going to go through all sorts of "logical" acrobatics to make it seem like their shitty, awful, practically nonexistant concepts of organization and leadership pretty much built the the kid's coffin, nailed it shut and buried it deep in the earth.

Hunter Thompson's essay on the aftermath of Ruben Salazar's murder (Strange Rumblings in Aztlan) is worth reading, here.

Edited by chibiabos (07/03/17 08:58 PM)

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: qman] * 1
    #24455255 -

Asante dont just leave this flaming bag of shit on our doorstep.

Youre the one who let it burn for 5 pages, just throw it in the dumpster.


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Re: ANTIFA [Re: The Ecstatic] * 4
    #24455857 -

The Ecstatic said:
Asante dont just leave this flaming bag of shit on our doorstep.

Youre the one who let it burn for 5 pages, just throw it in the dumpster.




Translation: 'Asante, they are making too much sense, shut it down(silence their voices, after all it's the ANTIFA way.)


--------------------
Amanita86 said:
Sui is trying to mod right now.  Kinda like a newborn calf tryin ta stand fer the first time ain’t it..

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: lowbrow]
    #24455915 -

lowbrow said:
shivas.wisdom said:
Show me the antifa counter demonstration, seemingly against your average Trump supporters, and I will show you the fascist elements within. Guilty by association, I suppose. If you are comfortable marching with fascists, don't be surprised if you are mistaken for one.



Right here.  He basically called all Trump supporters guilty by association fascists and implied it's okay to shut them up by force, and at the end of it implies support antifa or you're a fascist.



Note I say "mistaken for one".

What I intended by that paragraph is this: people and groups known to antifascists since before Trumps election - people with a known history of violence, intimidation, and organizing - are showing up to the various 'pro-Trump' rallies. In some cases, their presence is explicitly announced with the open display of white supremacist and fascist symbols. These are the groups that are directly targeted by antifa no-platforming, not the average Trump supporter.

The issue is that the legitimate fascists are using these rallies as a platform for their organization and recruitment. This is not something antifascists will allow. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the average Trump supporter has not rejected these elements directly, instead choosing to stand together against the antifascists. When the inevitable street melee begins, it is only inevitable that a non-fashy Trump supporter standing amid the fascists will be caught up in the action.

This doesn't mean that the individual was directly targeted because their disagreement made them a nazi, guilty by association (in this instance)  means that when a street brawl goes down, you will be lumped in with those you stand with. I will repeat again, although I'm sure some instances (especially directly after the inauguration) probably had over zealous antifa intentionally targeting undeserving individuals, I do not support that nor think it a practical tactic. But street brawls are confusing, and shit happens.

As to why the more moderate Republicans have chosen to not distance themselves from the extreme elements could be for a few reasons. One growing trend of the antifascist camp is that these black clad individuals are providing an outside enemy that is able to unite the disparate members of the right together. This has been reflected in the words of far-right organizers. This is being responded to; if you pay attention to these events in the USA, you will see that (despite still preparing for the worst) a movement had been made away from physical direct confrontation, to remove this unifying pressure. A great example of this can be seen from the recent rallies in DC. Antifascists had a completely separate rally, and in response to the removal of an outside threat, the one original rally devolved into two separate and opposed ones. The first being organized by the people opposed to the open racism of the alt-right, including much of the constitutionalist militias, while the second rally featured those who hold very little back in their rhetoric, Richard Spencer being one headliner. The purity cycle continues to this day, with the likely result that eventually the true fascists will find themselves rejected from the more moderate camp.

It becomes a lot easier to target fascists when they don't have public acceptance to hid behind.


--------------------

Edited by shivas.wisdom (07/04/17 03:34 AM)

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