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quantum biology
    #23074960 -

I just finished reading a book called Life on the Edge: The Coming of Age of Quantum Biology by Johnjoe McFadden & Jim Al-Khalili.  Really excellent.  Their thesis, and conclusion, is that not only can biology, biochemistry and neuroscience not exclude quantum phenomena, but such phenomena are instrumental in most biological processes, and certainly in the most fundamental ones -- e.g. enzyme activity, photosynthesis, heredity, and others.

The authors know full well that the argument against is that the wetness and noise inside of living cells is likely to destroy whatever coherence is there.  They address this in a number of ways, including proton-tunneling in enzymes happening on sufficiently short time-scales, coherent quantum waves being "propped up" in a kind of quantum resonance inside certain types of cells, and others.

So, do you think biology needs to incorporate quantum mechanics in a more comprehensive way, or is a classical description sufficient?


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: quantum biology [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23076837 -

Reading that post of yours, do you ever think wow, man kind has really come a long way? I dont have much to add to your question other than like Mckenna always talked about in his workshops "All Flows" or everything changes. I cant wait to see what happens in the next 20 years. I hope to see the predicted impact that Nanotechnology will have. It's said it will bring about more change than the industrial revolution.


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Re: quantum biology [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23095675 -

Humans cant handle all the applications science can bring fourth, I believe humans are ment to be natural, any addons or disruptions to our already well built biological system will only damage us in the future.

A classical description should be efficient due to humans already understanding how we work, but is still a touchy subject, due to government conspiracies, and wanting our own personal health.


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Official:
Facemelter
HyperspaceTraveller
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Edited by Chakanooga (04/08/16 01:11 AM)

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Re: quantum biology [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23110819 -

Whether quantum mechanics can be usefully used in biology or not, it probably won't be for a while unless there is some kind of shift toward that sort of thing, and a change in science education as a result. Right now, most biologists don't know much about physics and probably most physicists don't know much about biology. I know for biology I only had to take a year of physics, and it was non-calc based, so basically pointless. Calculus isn't required for biology most places. This is stupid whether there is a shift to quantum biology or not, because obviously biological processes take place in the physical world, so an understanding of physics is necessary. As well higher maths since it is what lies behind statistics and models, etc. If you don't understand the maths, you aren't going to truly understand the theory behind most fields.

I'll have to check out that book.

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Re: quantum biology [Re: clock_of_omens]
    #23111530 -

Yeah, the authors hint at the fact that it's a rather huge matzo ball hanging out there that so few biologists have any training at all in quantum theory.  Obviously this is the whole point of the book, but they spend over three hundred pages painstakingly arguing -- convincingly -- that we've reached a point where we're going to have to include q.m. in biology, biochemistry, and neuroscience or perish.  They delineate several very fundamental areas in which it is extremely likely we need to start incorporating q.m. in a major way.  It's a really fascinating book about a fascinating problem.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: quantum biology [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23113040 -

This is a great topic, I've been quite interested in biophysics, bioenergetics, bioelectronics and biophotonics since a few months.

Have you read Mae Wan Ho's "The Rainbow And The Worm"? I also strongly advise Szent-Gyorgi's books and Robert Becker.

Still have to read Al-Khalili.

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Re: quantum biology [Re: Arborescence]
    #23115930 -

This one https://discoverhumanity.wordpress.com/2014/01/12/quantum-mechanics-and-applications-to-medicine/ and Gilbert Ling/Gerald Pollack are also interesting.

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Re: quantum biology [Re: Arborescence]
    #23116651 -

Arborescence said:
This is a great topic, I've been quite interested in biophysics, bioenergetics, bioelectronics and biophotonics since a few months.

Have you read Mae Wan Ho's "The Rainbow And The Worm"? I also strongly advise Szent-Gyorgi's books and Robert Becker.

Still have to read Al-Khalili.



Arborescence said:
This one https://discoverhumanity.wordpress.com/2014/01/12/quantum-mechanics-and-applications-to-medicine/ and Gilbert Ling/Gerald Pollack are also interesting.




Interesting paper. :thumbup:


I'll have to check out those other authors.  It's a fascinating field.  It certainly appears that biologists are going to have to start incorporating quantum effects.  The evidence at this point is overwhelming.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: quantum biology [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23119254 -

DividedQuantum said:
So, do you think biology needs to incorporate quantum mechanics in a more comprehensive way, or is a classical description sufficient?



I don't know

stuff like this is happening without it

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/04/160414144205.htm

"The researchers created mice with a mutation in a gene associated with stuttering in humans, and found that they vocalized in an abnormal pattern reminiscent of human stuttering. The animal model of stuttering can help scientists understand the molecular and neurological basis of the disorder, and potentially develop treatments."

----------------------------------

I'm a bit of a 'ludite' I suppose
when they went on from the Bohr model of electron orbits, to probabilty & clouds
it certainly changed chemistry

I suppose the next question after this is: where does consciousness fit in?

At some point, I ask myself: "if I had to chose between being more aware and studying awareness, which would be the better choice?"
But that's personal.

For a young man with a PhD the answer sometimes might be lab science research. And as you say strange things like string theory and QM seem the cutting edge. And as someone else pointed out the more math the better, and I would say some knowledge of computing doesn't hurt either. But biology is such a big field there is room for many approaches. Some can control deep sea robots that go to thermal vents and collect speciemens and others can do quantum biochemistry I suppose.
The movies that show molecular machines inside the cell, - on youtube are a treat.

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Re: quantum biology [Re: laughingdog]
    #23121085 -

Of course, much can be done with classical physics and chemistry.  But it appears to me that we're reaching a sort of bottleneck, especially in something like neuroscience, in which we're going to start banging our heads against the wall without incorporating quantum effects like tunneling, for example.  The authors in the book I mention posit that proton tunneling in enzymes may account for a wide swath of phenomena, including photosynthesis and heredity, among others.  And since "quantum biology" as such hadn't come on the scene until very recently, we still don't know enough.  But of course, as has been mentioned, the rub is that there are not many scientists who know the requisite amount of physics and biology, together in one brain, to really make much headway into this.  That's another sort of bottleneck we'll have to get past.

It's all certainly very interesting.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: quantum biology [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23123307 -

I'm not going to pretend to have any idea but I do know that it boils down to proof of concept. It seems obvious that if larger things are made of smaller things the physics of the smaller things should affect the larger things but I know that when it comes to science intuition often isn't reality. Is that book reasonably readable to a lay person? Whether the claims pan out or not, it certainly sounds like a line of reasoning that should be and will be explored.


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[quote]Asante said:
You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar.

You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason.

I disendorse you.[/quote]

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Re: quantum biology [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #23123757 -

Yes the book is meant for a lay audience.  It's sophisticated, but readily understandable.  They illustrate well that this is going to be an important field going forward.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: quantum biology [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23123961 -

I'd love to see how it applies in a practical sense


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

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Re: quantum biology [Re: imachavel]
    #23123985 -

Well for one thing, they present pretty solid evidence that non-classical energy transfer is required for photosynthesis, and we just didn't know it.  So that's a pretty practical application.


Here's a good article summing it up:


Quote:
Quantum mechanics explains efficiency of photosynthesis


Light-gathering macromolecules in plant cells transfer energy by taking advantage of molecular vibrations whose physical descriptions have no equivalents in classical physics, according to the first unambiguous theoretical evidence of quantum effects in photosynthesis published today in the journal Nature Communications.

The majority of light-gathering macromolecules are composed of chromophores (responsible for the colour of molecules) attached to proteins, which carry out the first step of photosynthesis, capturing sunlight and transferring the associated energy highly efficiently. Previous experiments suggest that energy is transferred in a wave-like manner, exploiting quantum phenomena, but crucially, a non-classical explanation could not be conclusively proved as the phenomena identified could equally be described using classical physics.

Often, to observe or exploit quantum mechanical phenomena systems need to be cooled to very low temperatures. This however does not seem to be the case in some biological systems, which display quantum properties even at ambient temperatures.

Now, a team at UCL have attempted to identify features in these biological systems which can only be predicted by quantum physics, and for which no classical analogues exist.

"Energy transfer in light-harvesting macromolecules is assisted by specific vibrational motions of the chromophores," said Alexanda Olaya-Castro (UCL Physics & Astronomy), supervisor and co-author of the research. "We found that the properties of some of the chromophore vibrations that assist energy transfer during photosynthesis can never be described with classical laws, and moreover, this non-classical behaviour enhances the efficiency of the energy transfer."

Molecular vibrations are periodic motions of the atoms in a molecule, like the motion of a mass attached to a spring. When the energy of a collective vibration of two chromphores matches the energy difference between the electronic transitions of these chromophores a resonance occurs and efficient energy exchange between electronic and vibrational degrees of freedom takes place.

Providing that the energy associated to the vibration is higher than the temperature scale, only a discrete unit or quantum of energy is exchanged. Consequently, as energy is transferred from one chromophore to the other, the collective vibration displays properties that have no classical counterpart.

The UCL team found the unambiguous signature of non-classicality is given by a negative joint probability of finding the chromophores with certain relative positions and momenta. In classical physics, probability distributions are always positive.

"The negative values in these probability distributions are a manifestation of a truly quantum feature, that is, the coherent exchange of a single quantum of energy," explained Edward O'Reilly (UCL Physics & Astronomy), first author of the study. "When this happens electronic and vibrational degrees of freedom are jointly and transiently in a superposition of quantum states, a feature that can never be predicted with classical physics."

Other biomolecular processes such as the transfer of electrons within macromolecules (like in reaction centres in photosynthetic systems), the structural change of a chromophore upon absorption of photons (like in vision processes) or the recognition of a molecule by another (as in olfaction processes), are influenced by specific vibrational motions. The results of this research therefore suggest that a closer examination of the vibrational dynamics involved in these processes could provide other biological prototypes exploiting truly non-classical phenomena.


http://phys.org/news/2014-01-quantum-mechanics-efficiency-photosynthesis.html





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Re: quantum biology [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23124023 -

I'm sure photosynthesis isn't that simple. Light is simply a wavelength of vibrated waves at a certain point on the spectrum, as is radiation and radio waves etc. We have "sensors" that can see light but otherwise it's invisible to the touch like most wavelengths of energy, it's not in the form of a solid, liquid or gas. Aside from seeing it we mostly detect its there because of its effects on things as well.

Photosynthesis is one of those things. Without light, photosynthesis will not occur in a plant. I have no doubt there could be quantum physical properties involved with cellular generation and how cells use and capture photons to create photosynthetic reactions.

However, when I said "applied practically" I guess I'm not just referring to how practical it's discovery is. I kind of more so meant can figuring out quantum physical properties in biology lead to something discovered that can further lead to applying the science, making use of it practically, perhaps growing better plants more quickly. Maybe? I'm sure the research is very expensive would you not agree?


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Re: quantum biology [Re: imachavel]
    #23124026 -

Yeah I have no idea whether this research will ever lead to something marketable, and the authors don't comment on that at all.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: quantum biology [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23124057 -

Interesting enough anyway


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Re: quantum biology [Re: imachavel]
    #23127060 -

name of book?


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"The psychedelic experience is just the temporary disruption of psychophysics and the telepathic emergence of synchronic linguistics "


~Leafing~

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Re: quantum biology [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23133224 -

DividedQuantum said:
So, do you think biology needs to incorporate quantum mechanics in a more comprehensive way, or is a classical description sufficient?



I think biology could make great progress if it incorporated quantum mechanics as is shown in the movement of this modular human prototype.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: quantum biology [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23381877 -

I found this quote in a book called Mind, Matter and Quantum Mechanics by renowned physicist Henry P. Stapp, and would like to share it:

Quote:
Some neuroscientists who study the relationship of consciousness to brain process believe that classical physics will be adequate for that task.  That belief would have been reasonable during the nineteenth century, but now, in the twenty-first, it is rationally untenable: quantum theory must in principle be used because the behavior of the brain depends sensitively upon ionic and atomic processes, and these processes involve quantum effects.




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