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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: starfire_xes]
    #23009242 -

starfire_xes said:
Bigbadwooof said:
qman said:
I lived in one of the most affluent counties in the US for 20 years, it was filled with the most highly educated professionals (attorneys, doctors, corporate executives, teachers, PhD's) you could ever find, they were NOT liberals!!  They even voted 60% Republican and I can tell you the one's that voted Democratic weren't liberal, more like conservative moderates.



That's simply because Republicans were going to lower their taxes. What's your point?




Good point.  Liberals don't have values and don;t practice what they preach, so they will vote for republicans that lower their taxes.



I think for a lot of wealthy people it is more comfortable to adopt right wing ideas of social Darwinism and meritocracy. They are often looking for justification to serve their own self-interest, and to dominate lower classes.

I'm not arguing that they are 'liberals deep down'. No, I agree, these highly successful folks are probably moderates who lean R out of self-interest.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.


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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman]
    #23009260 -

qman said:
Bigbadwooof said:
qman said:
I lived in one of the most affluent counties in the US for 20 years, it was filled with the most highly educated professionals (attorneys, doctors, corporate executives, teachers, PhD's) you could ever find, they were NOT liberals!!  They even voted 60% Republican and I can tell you the one's that voted Democratic weren't liberal, more like conservative moderates.



That's simply because Republicans were going to lower their taxes. What's your point?



You and many others on this board continuously have argued that highly educated people are liberal, that's NOT the case.

They weren't liberal with their finances, life styles, family structure, and cultural values.

BTW, I wouldn't call these people religious either, just highly educated professionals living a conservative life.



I would say that a very large portion of highly educated people are liberal. Millennials are the most highly educated generation in American history, and they tend to be more liberal than previous generations. Even the Libertarians are more liberal than traditional conservatives. I think that as income level goes up among these 'highly educated' folks, they tend to lean conservative, because they don't like taxes.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.


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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman] * 1
    #23009344 -

qman said:
You and many others on this board continuously have argued that highly educated people are liberal, that's NOT the case.



It seems to be the case.  More and more over time...



The chart on the left includes independents.

The republican party is slowly becoming the party of the less educated.  :shrug:

Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (03/15/16 02:15 PM)

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #23009364 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
qman said:
You and many others on this board continuously have argued that highly educated people are liberal, that's NOT the case.



It seems to be the case.  More and more over time...



The chart on the left includes independents.

The republican party is slowly becoming the party of the undereducated.  :shrug:



That's a lot better than biased anecdotes. We must educate THE KEEEDS!

Throw that data in with the fact that millenials are more highly educated than their predecessors, and tend to have much more liberal attitudes on most issues, and that the states with the poorest education vote Republican, and I think it becomes quite clear.

Starfire posted a garbage article about Bernie being a communist on a separate thread. That is the kind of thing that uneducated people eat up (I'm not saying starfire is uneducated, I don't know). They don't check their source's credibility, and the internet is full of right-wing conspiracies. Alex Jones, Stefan Molyneux, etc. They present a terrifying case that scares poor uneducated people into voting Republican, because they become afraid of everything around them. They are afraid of atheists, their neighbor, other cultures, gays, muslims, black people, and most importantly, they become terrified of the government. They would rather see unelected CEO's dominate the country than elected officials.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.


Edited by Bigbadwooof (03/15/16 02:21 PM)

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 1
    #23009376 -

who knew that the Students For A Democratic Society were the antithesis of democracy?


Must have been in that book that shows Bernie is a communist and that trickle down economics is divine revelation.


--------------------

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23009411 -

The Ecstatic said:
who knew that the Students For A Democratic Society were the antithesis of democracy?


Must have been in that book that shows Bernie is a communist and that trickle down economics is divine revelation.



I like fiction books too, but I normally read non-fiction, so I must have missed that one.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23009432 -

Bigbadwooof said:
qman said:
Bigbadwooof said:
qman said:
I lived in one of the most affluent counties in the US for 20 years, it was filled with the most highly educated professionals (attorneys, doctors, corporate executives, teachers, PhD's) you could ever find, they were NOT liberals!!  They even voted 60% Republican and I can tell you the one's that voted Democratic weren't liberal, more like conservative moderates.



That's simply because Republicans were going to lower their taxes. What's your point?



You and many others on this board continuously have argued that highly educated people are liberal, that's NOT the case.

They weren't liberal with their finances, life styles, family structure, and cultural values.

BTW, I wouldn't call these people religious either, just highly educated professionals living a conservative life.



I would say that a very large portion of highly educated people are liberal. Millennials are the most highly educated generation in American history, and they tend to be more liberal than previous generations. Even the Libertarians are more liberal than traditional conservatives. I think that as income level goes up among these 'highly educated' folks, they tend to lean conservative, because they don't like taxes.



But isn't the foundation of "liberalism" the notion of paying taxes to benefit the disadvantaged?  If they don't embrace taxation to support their liberal ideals, they are NOT LIBERAL.

Why don't these highly educated "liberals" live with the disadvantaged people they care so much about?  Why do they refuse to send their children to schools with minorities?  Why don't they associate with people outside of their social-economic demographic?  They are NOT liberals, they're phonies.  Trust me, I know that type, they're "liberal" as long as they get to stay in their upper middle-class lifestyle. :rofl2:

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23009436 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
qman said:
You and many others on this board continuously have argued that highly educated people are liberal, that's NOT the case.



It seems to be the case.  More and more over time...



The chart on the left includes independents.

The republican party is slowly becoming the party of the less educated.  :shrug:



And how brilliant did someone have to be to vote for a House Negro?

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman]
    #23009453 -

qman said:
"Perhaps you would prefer ethnically pure states?"

I think the vast majority of EU citizens don't want Africans and Muslims invading their homelands, I don't think German's mind if a citizen from a bordering nation enters their country, bringing in third world people has been a proven failure.



The very use of the word "invading" is problematic with its connotations of an invading army or disease but it does have the more neutral meaning which I'm hoping you mean... Yeh, sure, no one wants to be invaded :shrug: but that doesnt really answer my question.

having third world immigrants is not a proven failure. As BBW said very well;
Quote:
BBW said:Cultural diversity works just fine, if the relationship between cultures is cultivated properly. Mass immigration is just asking too much too fast.




--------------------
War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 1
    #23009476 -

qman said:
And how brilliant did someone have to be to vote for a House Negro?



You can say it... House nigger! I know you want to :wink:
I would say probably more brilliant than someone voting for a backwoods redneck idiot like George W Bush, a reality tv star, or a movie star.

Obama spit a good line. He comes off as a highly capable, well articulated man.

qman said:
But isn't the foundation of "liberalism" the notion of paying taxes to benefit the disadvantaged?  If they don't embrace taxation to support their liberal ideals, they are NOT LIBERAL.

Why don't these highly educated "liberals" live with the disadvantaged people they care so much about?  Why do they refuse to send their children to schools with minorities?  Why don't they associate with people outside of their social-economic demographic?  They are NOT liberals, they're phonies.  Trust me, I know that type, they're "liberal" as long as they get to stay in their upper middle-class lifestyle. :rofl2:



Actually, "liberalism" doesn't necessarily refer to economics or tax policy at all. So your premise is wrong.

More speculation and anecdotes. See my last post:

Bigbadwooof said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
qman said:
You and many others on this board continuously have argued that highly educated people are liberal, that's NOT the case.



It seems to be the case.  More and more over time...



The chart on the left includes independents.

The republican party is slowly becoming the party of the undereducated.  :shrug:



That's a lot better than biased anecdotes. We must educate THE KEEEDS!

Throw that data in with the fact that millenials are more highly educated than their predecessors, and tend to have much more liberal attitudes on most issues, and that the states with the poorest education vote Republican, and I think it becomes quite clear.

Starfire posted a garbage article about Bernie being a communist on a separate thread. That is the kind of thing that uneducated people eat up (I'm not saying starfire is uneducated, I don't know). They don't check their source's credibility, and the internet is full of right-wing conspiracies. Alex Jones, Stefan Molyneux, etc. They present a terrifying case that scares poor uneducated people into voting Republican, because they become afraid of everything around them. They are afraid of atheists, their neighbor, other cultures, gays, muslims, black people, and most importantly, they become terrified of the government. They would rather see unelected CEO's dominate the country than elected officials.




--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.


Edited by Bigbadwooof (03/15/16 03:01 PM)

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman]
    #23009493 -

qman said:
Didn't colonized people also have the same opportunities as the British, why did they end up in the predicament they found themselves in? :lol:



Well many countries had different opportunities at different times. Apparently, the Europeans were particularly successful at Empire and brought African Empires to collapse. Part of the reason European powers went there in the first place (started with Belgium) was that African Empires were so successful and wealthy.


--------------------
War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23009497 -

So you refuse to answer my question regarding taxation, how can someone claim to be liberal and not embrace taxes to help the disadvantaged?  Let me guess, they like liberal ideals as long as they aren't paying for it. That's called being a phony.  :bigyesnod:

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman] * 1
    #23009527 -

qman said:
So you refuse to answer my question regarding taxation, how can someone claim to be liberal and not embrace taxes to help the disadvantaged?  Let me guess, they like liberal ideals as long as they aren't paying for it. That's called being a phony.  :bigyesnod:



Very easily, actually. You can be liberal, in that you believe gays should be allowed to marry, you believe in free speech, you understand that man made climate change is real, you don't support corporate welfare, you don't support war for any reason that is not defense, you support a pathway to citizenship, etc etc. Maybe you don't support higher taxes. Maybe you don't support higher taxes, unless you know those taxes aren't going to be funneled into the military.

Simply paying higher taxes isn't a value for anyone. What is done with taxes is. In fact, maybe these people would like to see the taxes that we already bring in be used to solve some of these problems, instead of funding tax breaks for corporate America, and military adventurism.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23009538 -

Bigbadwooof said:
qman said:
So you refuse to answer my question regarding taxation, how can someone claim to be liberal and not embrace taxes to help the disadvantaged?  Let me guess, they like liberal ideals as long as they aren't paying for it. That's called being a phony.  :bigyesnod:



Very easily, actually. You can be liberal, in that you believe gays should be allowed to marry, you believe in free speech, you understand that man made climate change is real, you don't support corporate welfare, you don't support war for any reason that is not defense, you support a pathway to citizenship, etc etc. Maybe you don't support higher taxes. Maybe you don't support higher taxes, unless you know those taxes aren't going to be funneled into the military.

Simply paying higher taxes isn't a value for anyone. What is done with taxes is. In fact, maybe these people would like to see the taxes that we already bring in be used to solve some of these problems, instead of funding tax breaks for corporate America, and military adventurism.



So voting for their Democratic candidate doesn't assure a responsible use of their taxation?  And these "liberals" feel more comfortable voting for a Republican anyways? What you're suggesting isn't adding up. :shrug:

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23009559 -

qman said:
Bigbadwooof said:
qman said:
So you refuse to answer my question regarding taxation, how can someone claim to be liberal and not embrace taxes to help the disadvantaged?  Let me guess, they like liberal ideals as long as they aren't paying for it. That's called being a phony.  :bigyesnod:



Very easily, actually. You can be liberal, in that you believe gays should be allowed to marry, you believe in free speech, you understand that man made climate change is real, you don't support corporate welfare, you don't support war for any reason that is not defense, you support a pathway to citizenship, etc etc. Maybe you don't support higher taxes. Maybe you don't support higher taxes, unless you know those taxes aren't going to be funneled into the military.

Simply paying higher taxes isn't a value for anyone. What is done with taxes is. In fact, maybe these people would like to see the taxes that we already bring in be used to solve some of these problems, instead of funding tax breaks for corporate America, and military adventurism.



So voting for their Democratic candidate doesn't assure a responsible use of their taxation?  And these "liberals" feel more comfortable voting for a Republican anyways? What you're suggesting isn't adding up. :shrug:



I suppose that would depend on the candidate. I think it varies from person to person. However, I will bring you back to this:




They don't.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman]
    #23009569 -

qman said:
So you refuse to answer my question regarding taxation, how can someone claim to be liberal and not embrace taxes to help the disadvantaged?  Let me guess, they like liberal ideals as long as they aren't paying for it. That's called being a phony.  :bigyesnod:



no it's called being a fiscal conservative. there is certainly a rationale to want to save money...there's also a rationale for social programs.

also, you ignore plenty of questions yourself there, Mr Phony.

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23009575 -

So they're smart because they voted for an articulate House Negro? You seem to have very low standards and expectations for these "brilliant" liberal voters. :lolsy:

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman] * 1
    #23009586 -

qman said:
So they're smart because they voted for an articulate House Negro? You seem to have very low standards and expectations for these "brilliant" liberal voters. :lolsy:



You make some impressively terrible arguments. Wouldn't you pick Obama over Hillary?

Are you saying that Republicans are smart because they voted for GWB?

Let's settle one thing here:



Highly educated people vote Democrat, and lean liberal. You're wrong.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.


Edited by Bigbadwooof (03/15/16 03:32 PM)

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23009652 -

Bigbadwooof said:
qman said:
So they're smart because they voted for an articulate House Negro? You seem to have very low standards and expectations for these "brilliant" liberal voters. :lolsy:



You make some impressively terrible arguments. Wouldn't you pick Obama over Hillary?

Are you saying that Republicans are smart because they voted for GWB?

Highly educated people vote Democrat, and lean liberal. You're wrong.



I'm suggesting only one thing, the vast majority of educated people are NOT liberal!!  Voting for Obama or Hillary doesn't make one a liberal. Do you know why so many moderates voted for Obama?  Because they hated Romney, is that really an endorsement of Obama?

Also, why is Hillary winning over Sanders?  Shouldn't Sanders be killing her if your premise is correct?

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: viktor] * 2
    #23009675 -

viktor said:
Bubbles85 said:
Industrial Revolution
Quote:
The Industrial Revolution began in the United Kingdom and most of the important technological innovations were British.





Everyone in the world, including Tipote, knows that the Industrial Revolution was a British phenomenon.



Yup, Bubbles just likes to state facts that no one is disputing.

viktor said:
What made me laugh was Tipote's assertion that the British "stole technology" from the colonies.

Just so unbelievably :facepalm:



its unbelievably :facepalm: that you seem to assume these countries were just a bunch of brown people flinging shit at eachother.. as though they didnt have technology, industry and empire of their own. African civilisations have been some of the most advanced and oldest in history. Technology has been stolen between every country/group since always, and it will always happen. African civilisations actually had a good level of development, technology, industry etc. I wasn't saying that it was though the British went to Africa, stole a steam engine. Some African nations were some of the best in the world at weaving, metallergy etc at the time, they had things to teach. Many libraries and universities (some of the oldest and best in the world)were razed to the ground. The loss of knowledge is incalculable.

The latest thing I said on this was...
Quote:
Tipote said:garment technology was taken from India and other countries, and manufactured goods were sold back to them. This created an economic dependency with the Empire at the heart.



The destruction of African civilisations has happened over centuries. By being able to manufacture goods cheaply and dominate the market, the local industry was destroyed over time. This economic relationship has widened the gap of development between Europe and Africa ever since.

The Impact of Colonialism on African Economic Development
Joshua Dwayne Settles University of Tennessee
Quote:
Prior to the partition of Africa, the continent had become increasingly integrated economically, with trade occurring north -south and east -west. The policies of the governing powers redirected all African trade to the international export market. Thus today, there is little in the way of inter-African trade, and the pattern of economic dependence continues. The imposition of colonialism on the continent of Africa occurred for many reasons, not the least of which was economic. Prior to this development, Africa was advancing and progressing economically and politically. Colonialism encouraged this development in some areas, but in many others severely retarded the normal progress of the continent. Had colonialism never been imposed on Africa, its development would be significantly different and many of the problems that plague it today would not exist.



Quote:
One result of the increase in international trade was that indigenous Afiican economy was subordinated to the interests of Europe. The slave trading system did this by substituting European manufactured products for those products which normally would have been made locally. Thus we see early developing a pattern of Africa as a source of raw materials, in this case labor, and as only a consumer of goods. The result of such uneven trade is evident. Even innocuous imports such as textiles, competed damagingly with local products, with the result that the technological gap between Africa and Europe, confined in the 15th century to shipping and firearms, widened to such an extent that African technology failed to progress.




The European colonial mentality says that Africa has never had civilization. this is a lie.

100 African Cities Destroyed By Europeans: WHY there are seldom historical buildings and monuments in sub-Saharian Africa!
Quote:
Did you know that in the 14th century the city of Timbuktu in West Africa was five times bigger than the city of London, and was the richest city in the world?



Quote:
As historical sources described above the continent was full of monuments. Where are they?

The sad truth is that Europeans invaders have destroyed most of them either as punitive actions or under the scramble for Africa ‘Terra Nullius’ law.

During the scramble for Africa by Europeans, the main way to prove that a land was qualified for colonization or take over was ‘Terra Nullius”, a Latin expression deriving from Roman law meaning “land belonging to no one”, which is used in international law to describe territory which has never been subject to the sovereignty of any state, or over which any prior sovereign has expressly or implicitly relinquished sovereignty. Sovereignty over territory which is terra nullius may be acquired through occupation”



Africa before Transatlantic Enslavement
Quote:
The African continent continued on its own path of development, without significant external intervention until the fifteenth century of our era. Some of the world’s other great civilisations, such as Kush, Axum, Mali, and Great Zimbabwe, flourished in Africa in the years before 1500. In this early period Africans participated in extensive international trading networks and in trans-oceanic travel. Certainly some African states had established important trading relations with India, China and other parts of Asia long before these were disrupted by European intervention.



Quote:
In most parts of Africa before 1500, societies had become highly developed in terms of their own histories. They often had complex systems of participatory government, or were established powerful states that covered large territories and had extensive regional and international links.

Many of these societies had solved difficult agricultural problems and had come up with advanced techniques of production of food and other crops and were engaged in local, regional or even international trading networks. Some peoples were skilled miners and metallurgists, others great artists in wood, stone and other materials. Many of the societies had also amassed a great stock of scientific and other knowledge, some of it stored in libraries such as those of Timbuktu, but some passed down orally from generation to generation.
There was great diversity across the continent and therefore societies at different stages and levels of development. Most importantly, Africans had established their own economic and political systems, their own cultures, technologies and philosophies that had enabled them to make spectacular advances and important contributions to human knowledge.

The significance of the transatlantic slave trade is not just that it led to the loss of millions of lives and the departure of millions of those who could have contributed to Africa's future, although depopulation did have a great impact. But just as devastating was the fact that African societies were disrupted by the trade and increasingly unable to follow an independent path of development. Colonial rule and its modern legacy have been a continuation of this disruption.

The devastation of Africa through transatlantic slavery was accompanied by the ignorance of some historians and philosophers to negate its entire history. These ideas and philosophies suggested, that among other things, Africans had never developed any institutions or cultures, nor anything else of any worth and that future advances could only take place under the direction of Europeans or European institutions.




Africa before European slavery
Quote:
Art, learning and technology flourished and Africans were especially skilled in subjects like medicine, mathematics and astronomy. As well as domestic goods, they made fine luxury items in bronze, ivory, gold and terracotta for both local use and trade.

West Africans had traded with Europeans through merchants in North Africa for centuries. The first traders to sail down the West African coast were the Portuguese in the 15th century. Later the Dutch, British, French and Scandinavians followed. They were mainly interested in precious items such as gold, ivory and spices, particularly pepper.

From their first contacts, European traders kidnapped and bought Africans for sale in Europe. However, it was not until the 17th century, when plantation owners wanted more and more slaves to satisfy the increasing demand for sugar in Europe, that transatlantic slaving became the dominant trade.



I hope my point is a little clearer to you now..


--------------------
War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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