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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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AA: Powerlessness
    #22339105 -

As some here know, my wife is currently in rehab undergoing some variation of the 12 step program (the 'Minnesota' method apparently).

I was contacted by one of the therapists there the other day who asked me to write a 'consequences' letter regarding the way in which her addiction has impacted me. I spent several hours doing so, only be be asked to write another as it obviously didn't fit the bill of what they wanted. In the exact words they gave me:

"The first stage of treatment is very much focussed on her understanding of powerlessness over her addictions so could you please write another letter"

Now personally, I see zero basis for this prognosis in my exploration of life. I was wondering if anyone here might have any opinions or understanding of this supposed 'powerlessness'?

I've been addicted to a few things in my time and at no point did I feel 'powerless' over my addictions.

Is it just an absolute crock of shite, or am I missing something here?


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Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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Re: AA: Powerlessness [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22339256 -

Nah pretty much a crock.
AA is a religious-based help group, my mother has been a part of it for years despite staying off the booze my entire life.
The first step is admitting your powerlessness and circumventing your control into God's hands.
The line that is used every time is if you could do it on your own then you wouldn't be here.

It's cornering, and when you're already at the end of the line of support with your addiction and those who you are reaching out for help demand such a sacrifice it really doesn't feel like there is anywhere else to go.
It really doesn't do anything but support what they're saying, that you are indeed powerless.

Of course, I think there's some credit to be given to this strategy in regard to the lack of power many have over will once fully entombed in addiction.
While the reasoning behind the step to admit powerlessness may be skewed (and hey I only know of my local AA and the general gossip of the world) there may be a psychological benefit specifically in addictions therapy to admitting a lack of control.
I don't know, I'm just some guy but that's my two cents on it.

I get the waft of shit smell from the crock, but at the same time if sniffing that crock helps my loved one I'll eat it like pie y'know?
I'll bet you do.

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Re: AA: Powerlessness [Re: Tropism]
    #22339350 -

Thanks for your input Trop.

I have thought much the same in regards to the fact that, however much of a crock this may be, it has been proven to work for so many. That being the case, there must be a psychological benefit to it in the case of addiction therapy, as you say.

However your last line is where I can foresee an issue:

"I'll bet you do."

I'm not sure than I can. I've already told the therapist that contacted me that I can see no basis for this and as such, am concerned that this disparity in what they teach and my own views may cause difficulty for my wife post rehab. I'm not very good when it comes to keeping quiet about something I don't agree with, but am always open to shifting my views.

So, I asked her for some supporting evidence last Thursday, and, surprise surprise, I've heard nothing back!!

Hence why I was hoping that someone in the community here might have something that could change my mind..


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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Re: AA: Powerlessness [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22339401 -

Hm yeah here is hoping, there are some pretty smart dudes here who know far more than me regarding religious material.

I say I'll bet you do because despite never meeting you I want to believe you are of the integrity I think you are.
I think in the situation where you see benefit in something that you have to bite your lip against, I think you would.
If the benefit isn't that clear well every scenario is different.
But if it helps, then it helps. And if we want to help our loved ones in those times of need, then support is often blind. Or mute, in this case.

After recovery there is time to remind the decision to seek help was their own, and it was the right one.
The power was in their hands to recover from an addictive substance as much as to endulge in it.
If this is not the case then God is no more responsible for the recovery than the friggin addiction in the first place.

It's a hard scenario, I've never met either of you nor stepped on your continent.
I can't know what is correct in this instance. Yet you love her and I think in the moments it counts you may have to sacrifice an ideology you love for that love, if that makes sense.
We can't let our selves get in the way, especially not when dealing with fatal addictions.
Wouldn't it suck to live in some regret years down the line because we could not budge on someone else's idea of a God?

Another thing I remind myself is that addictions therapy typically happens only once someone has already conceded defeat.
Sometimes blind support is really helpful. I mean who doesn't want that to some degree?

Either way, hang in there man.
My best wishes to the both of you. Just keep truckin. :heart:

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Re: AA: Powerlessness [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22339831 -

The key and the tie in to religion, is that while the addict is powerless by themselves, now they are able to place themselves into the hands of a higher power.  Think of it like Allstate where you're in good hands, at least until your rates go up or they drop you.

AA doesn't subscribe to a particular higher power, they let the person choose their own religion.  People are however required to drink massive amounts of coffee and smoke cigarettes like crazy in order to stay in the program regardless of which religion they chose.  This can create problems for the Mormons who typically have to drop out.


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Anxiety is what you make it.

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Re: AA: Powerlessness [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22340425 -

My brother is an addict.  H.  He was, for many years, completely powerless over his addictions.  Burroughs was very emphatic that "willpower" has nothing to do with overcoming addiction.  You basically have to re-program yourself, and most people need help with that.  I, like you, had difficulty understanding why it took so long for him to overcome his illness.  The reason for that is that I am not an addict.  For an addict, it's a whole different ballgame.  As I said, willpower is meaningless for such a person, even if it's not for you or me.  I would say try to keep that in mind, but I would also say don't bullshit.  If you're not comfortable writing things you don't believe, then don't do it.  Lying will only make everything worse.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: AA: Powerlessness [Re: Jokeshopbeard] * 1
    #22340917 -

The only paper (besides my 222 page doctoral dissertation) that was ever published was on the 12-Step Programs (In the NJ  Journal of Professional Counseling, Vol. 51, Issue 1/2, Fall '88, 'A Jungian Rationale for the Efficacy of 12-Step Programs'). You have to understand what the 12-Steps are. Bill Wilson, co-founder of AA contacted Carl Jung in writing about how to proceed against what was then called Dipsomania, alcoholism. Jung explained that it is a misguided attempt to find a spiritual core, union, conjunction of opposing psychic forces. Jung said that a religious experience was usually necessary. Now, where does one find that? Well, LSD experimentation was being done with alcoholics based on a completely WRONG premise. It was wrongly believed that a powerful LSD experience would mimic Delirium Tremens and scare the bejeezus out of alcoholics, thereby effecting a cure. What was happening, (as Leary & Alpert discovered later) was that the Psychedelic Experience often resulted in agenuine mystical-religious experience which rebooted alcoholics misguided lives. Bill W. then embarked on a 4 year legal course of LSD Psychotherapy.

Unfortunately, by the time Bill finished with his LSD treatment, he wanted every alcoholic to take LSD (this is documented in Bill's book Pass It On) http://www.amazon.com/Pass-Message-Alcoholics-Published-Hardcover/dp/B00HQ1O7GO/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1444154986&sr=8-2&keywords=bill+wilson%2C+pass+it+on ; Legally unable to obtain and use LSD, Bill ingeniously created a step system which is amazingly resembles the 8-limbs of classical Yoga devised by Patanjali. Bill's system begins with the removal of the physical impediments including the substance being abused, then moves towards rectifying social problems, a horizontal aspect of damage control to people and institutions. Then the steps move toward a more vertical dimension with mental introspection and taking stock of one's inner life. Finally, one enters a spiritual stage through prayer and meditation where one goes beyond remediation, reparation and repair, to actively rebuild one's identity on higher forms of motivation. There is nothing bogus about the program or of Bill Wilson's good intentions. The steps are a sound process inasmuch as any systematic process is useful if properly understood and followed. A little bit of knowledge is always dangerous and most people who dis AA and NA do not even bother to delve into the few details I gave. The LSD experience of cleaning and clarifying the levels of our existence (chakra motives if you will) had to be translated into a non-substance practice that would emulate the various levels of understanding that LSD brought to Bill himself.

I hope that I have shed some light on AA and its best intentions. Perhaps get a copy of Pass It On and read this in greater detail. The parallel with Yoga is my own observation, and I further explained my point using Jungian concepts. Perhaps I could scan a copy and PM it to you if you're interested. It was only a couple of columns on a single page.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: AA: Powerlessness [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22342447 -

Thank you Markos, I appreciate your input. I'd very much like to read your further explanation if it's no great hassle for you to find/scan it.

I've dipped into the AA handbook a couple of times, I suspect I should read it cover to cover if I'm to gain some further insight at this stage, unless you feel that the publication you mentioned might be of more help?

Trop, LE & DQ - Thank you guys.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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Re: AA: Powerlessness [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22342582 -

I've given up some addictions through willpower alone but it made me uptight.... Love is an unfathomable power imho, and I'd never have experienced it without psychedelics.  It's unfortunate we live in a time where getting psychedelic psychotherapy is damned near impossible.  Just a moment's affirmation of the condensed energy that is Love is fucking freedom.  That's my .02.  How does one find somebody highly educated in psychedelic psychotherapy? I can just manage it for myself....


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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Re: AA: Powerlessness [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #22342962 -

I was a hard drinker for 15 years. I quit one day and never looked back. I have no interest in drinking but I don't take credit for that, it's just what it is. I am not an alcoholic. The cessation was a major metabolic challenge for me and it took years to recover, so it's not that I wasn't in deep enough.

As I don't believe in free will it makes sense that such connections can be very strong and it may be useful for some to see themselves as addicts long after the substance use is over. For some the idea of being powerless in a specific context is more powerful than seeing ourselves as essentially powerless in all regards.

I also don't believe in God, so it seems like mind games to me in regards to ego prominence and what we view ourselves as. Although I don't consider myself an addict of a specific substance I recognize a general dis-satisfaction in life and there was some reckoning to get to that point of awareness and acceptance. I guess in a way I consider myself an addict of being alive and I feel a sense of powerlessness in that regard.


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: AA: Powerlessness [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22347314 -

You might find Pass It On more interesting than getting through the Big Blue Book of AA, but I'll dig out a copy of my brief article, though I probably distilled the meaning down in my response to you. My point was to cast a new light on what I think Bill W. was attempting to do by translating the stages of insight-action from his own Psychedelic Experience into a discipline that non-psychedelic users could employ in order to become healthy/whole (both of which derive from the same root as holy).

Personally, I suspect that the atheists among AA/NA ranks cannot possibly develop as far as someone who engages the entire step system because they tend to replace the Higher Power with the social group of members and as such, must deflect their dependency from intoxication to emotional involvement with their sponsor and other members. Additionally, the atheist AA member will disregard the highest two steps 11. & 12. which open up into inner dimensions and then into a unification of inner and outer that the non-spiritual member will be unable to enter into. Ultimately, it is (as Jung pointed out to Bill W.) the means for the religious experience that will be curative of the addict's addiction. All of the preceding steps are necessary preliminaries, but preliminary they remain.

Those who give up on AA/NA, or dismiss the program before practicing the highest two steps only experience the preparation, not the fruit from specifically spiritual disciplines (which is up to each member to pursue as an exercise of freedom from their specific form of slavery). The absence of these final two steps is like eliminating Dhyana (Meditation) and Samadhi (Unification of Mind) from Ashtanga 8-limbed Yoga. Now, that would make Dharana (Concentration) the final step in that Yoga, which might truly strengthen one's mental acuity, but it falls short of Unification of Mind, and as such wholeness/health/holiness. Concentration, in Yoga, remains a matter of effort, just as it would in the 12-steps, while Meditation is 'concentration-without-effort.' Similarly in the 12-steps, the member will weary of their mental concentration (as in step 10. "Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it"), and wholeness will not become their new nature. The temptation to use substances, dependency will remain, because they have not experienced spiritual methods for experiencing fulfillment independently of an external drug.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: AA: Powerlessness [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22347441 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
You might find Pass It On more interesting than getting through the Big Blue Book of AA, but I'll dig out a copy of my brief article, though I probably distilled the meaning down in my response to you. My point was to cast a new light on what I think Bill W. was attempting to do by translating the stages of insight-action from his own Psychedelic Experience into a discipline that non-psychedelic users could employ in order to become healthy/whole (both of which derive from the same root as holy).

Personally, I suspect that the atheists among AA/NA ranks cannot possibly develop as far as someone who engages the entire step system because they tend to replace the Higher Power with the social group of members and as such, must deflect their dependency from intoxication to emotional involvement with their sponsor and other members. Additionally, the atheist AA member will disregard the highest two steps 11. & 12. which open up into inner dimensions and then into a unification of inner and outer that the non-spiritual member will be unable to enter into. Ultimately, it is (as Jung pointed out to Bill W.) the means for the religious experience that will be curative of the addict's addiction. All of the preceding steps are necessary preliminaries, but preliminary they remain.

Those who give up on AA/NA, or dismiss the program before practicing the highest two steps only experience the preparation, not the fruit from specifically spiritual disciplines (which is up to each member to pursue as an exercise of freedom from their specific form of slavery). The absence of these final two steps is like eliminating Dhyana (Meditation) and Samadhi (Unification of Mind) from Ashtanga 8-limbed Yoga. Now, that would make Dharana (Concentration) the final step in that Yoga, which might truly strengthen one's mental acuity, but it falls short of Unification of Mind, and as such wholeness/health/holiness. Concentration, in Yoga, remains a matter of effort, just as it would in the 12-steps, while Meditation is 'concentration-without-effort.' Similarly in the 12-steps, the member will weary of their mental concentration (as in step 10. "Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it"), and wholeness will not become their new nature. The temptation to use substances, dependency will remain, because they have not experienced spiritual methods for experiencing fulfillment independently of an external drug.


I've never met a person who went through AA who wasn't deeply addicted to coffee and cigarettes and extroverted socializing.... virtually all were religious, mostly Catholic, yet they did quit drinking :shrug:.


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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Re: AA: Powerlessness [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #22348128 -

I recently watched a Terrance Mckenna video where he was talking about AA and addiction being a disease. I have to agree with him that by claiming powerlessness a person is a absolving themselves of responsibility for their actions.


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Re: AA: Powerlessness [Re: GoblinKing]
    #22350030 -

I have some experiences with rehabs and 12 step stuff.  The powerlessness just means that you have no control over drinking and you are powerless to stop it, it's part of step 1.


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Re: AA: Powerlessness [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #22351494 -

I haven't come to the same conclusions, and of course, when I used to volunteer to accompany clients to meetings, I insisted on non-smoking meetings. BTW, that meeting place was the affluent Miami Shores Prresbyterian Church. Not all addicts are extraverts, and not everyone deflects his/her addiction process to cigarettes OR coffee, but you're correct I think that it is more common than not. There may be more of a genetic predisposition to say Irish Catholics, than Italian Catholics, so the cultural-genetic factor is the issue over any religious correlation.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: AA: Powerlessness [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22351626 -

I dunno, in 2015 I  feel like we should have set the bar higher than what AA currently provides.  It's something and I'm glad people are replacing their reckless addictions with ones that are potentially less harmful to others, but I think we could do better.  Of course, I believe in psychedelic psychotherapy.


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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Re: AA: Powerlessness [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #22351787 -

I'm a strong proponent of Psychedelic Psychotherapy too. My perfect job might have been Psychedelic Psychotherapist. I've had to settle on Hypnotherapy, but I haven't had opportunities to test the efficacy in practice. :shrug:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: AA: Powerlessness [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22351923 -

What exactly would be the method in Psychedelic Psychotherapy? Is it as simple as the following, or is there a lot more to it?

1. Ingest substance
2. Await effects
3. Perform therapy as per usual


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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Re: AA: Powerlessness [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22351980 -

I think there would have to be some pre-therapy working up to it to get one in the right mind set, and then there would have to be a warm, safe setting.  I think you would have to do some sort of body work to release tension, hatha yoga prior to the trip.  I think you would need a trip guide, and you'd definitely would have to have established some level of trust with this therapist.  They would need to be there to redirect you like say when you're experiencing bad somatic symptoms, redirecting you back to the clear light, the white light, or some other form of delusion.  Eventually, I'd think the medicinal aspect would kick in, you'd feel holy, sanctified, the white light, like a new man.... You could say fuck off to all the pushers of all your addictions, lose your lighter, say fuck the supplier and so on.  There'd have to be a lot of work done afterwards with reintegration, reinterpreting old traumas in new ways and so on. 

That's what crosses my mind atm, is very complex.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Re: AA: Powerlessness [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22352978 -

I think there are different answers to your question. Didactic therapy could only occur on low doses, the so-called 'Psycholytic Psychotherapy' http://www.amazon.com/LSD-Psychotherapy-Exploration-Psychedelic-Psycholytic/dp/0394172779/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1444375119&sr=8-1&keywords=psycholytic+therapy%2C+caldwell wherein one could still do analytic work. On the opposite end of the continuum would be the high dose therapy that Stan Grof used, wherein the therapist is more of an emotional support system while the subject undergoes the extremes of height and depth. Only later does [s]he serve the interpretive processing. The dosage level will determine what forms of traditional psychotherapy (e.g., Gestalt, Jungian, Transpersonal, Pastoral, etc.) as well as the breadth of experience of the therapist. One thing that should clearly NOT be employed is the foisting of a particular idiom on a subject. A friend I had known since nursery school threw me out of his parents' house at night in a snowstorm on a trip because he felt I was getting too personal. I phoned him 8 years later, and he STILL held a grudge, which I think is clearly pathological. But he broke off all contact since 1976. Inquiry without invitation is obviously a negative. :shrug:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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