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What Is Mythology?
    #21321567 -

well?

Edited by zzripz (02/24/15 11:20 AM)

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Re: What Is Mythology? [Re: zzripz]
    #21323002 -

This is my personal opinion but mythology to me is when world/society's thoughts or beliefs change or become something else and become no longer believed by the general populace. Such as the way the Greeks believed in Zues and other deities and were sure things change and collective minds have decided that it is no longer true. I think someday all the major popular religions of the current age will change or be forgotten and be considered mythology. This is just my perspective.:tongue2:


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"Wasn't it beautiful when you believed in everything?" -Anon
:mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2:



:mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2:

"She always had that about her, that look of otherness,of eyes that see things much too far, and off thoughts that wonder off the edge of the world." -Joanne Harris

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Re: What Is Mythology? [Re: zzripz]
    #21324260 -

These definitions of myth are culled from the Wiki article on Mythology, and I found 5 of the most significant writers in my experience (although there are many more modern ones with whom I am unfamiliar): C.G. Jung, James Frazer, Claude Levi-Strauss, and Joseph Campbell. I should also mention Mircea Eliade, the Roumanian historian of religion that was a strong influence on my own  philosophy of religion.

"Swiss psychologist Carl Jung (1873–1961) tried to understand the psychology behind world myths. Jung asserted that all humans share certain innate unconscious psychological forces, which he called archetypes. Jung believed that the similarities between the myths from different cultures reveals the existence of these universal archetypes."

Joseph Campbell, btw, supported Jung in his theory. I remember these because I recently read the 4-volune The Masks of God series. Levi-Strauss' description also supports Jung.
"In the long view of the history of mankind, four essential functions of mythology can be discerned. The first and most distinctive – vitalizing all – is that of eliciting and supporting a sense of awe before the mystery of being."  "The second function of mythology is to render a cosmology, an image of the universe that will support and be supported by this sense of awe before the mystery of the presence and the presence of a mystery."  "A third function of mythology is to support the current social order, to integrate the individual organically with his group;" "The fourth function of mythology is to initiate the individual into the order of realities of his own psyche, guiding him toward his own spiritual enrichment and realization."

Sir James Frazer wrote The Golden Bough, which Jim Morrison borrowed from in his lyrics ('Not to Touch the Earth, Not to See the Sun' is a subchapter in Frazer's book, 'Not to Touch the Earth' is a derivative song title). The book is shown belonging to Colonel Walter E. Kurtz played by Marlon Brando in the film Apocalypse Now. Of course Francis Ford Coppola, who had known Morrison, put his song 'The End' into his film Apocalypse Now.

"The anthropologist James Frazer saw myths as a misinterpretation of magical rituals; which were themselves based on a mistaken idea of natural law. According to Frazer, man begins with an unfounded belief in impersonal magical laws. When he realizes that his applications of these laws don't work, he gives up his belief in natural law, in favor of a belief in personal gods controlling nature — thus giving rise to religious myths. Meanwhile, man continues practicing formerly magical rituals through force of habit, reinterpreting them as reenactments of mythical events. Finally, Frazer contends, man realizes that nature does follow natural laws, but now he discovers their true nature through science. Here, again, science makes myth obsolete: as Frazer puts it, man progresses "from magic through religion to science"".

"Claude Lévi-Strauss believed that myths reflect patterns in the mind and interpreted those patterns more as fixed mental structures — specifically, pairs of opposites (i.e. good/evil, compassionate/callous) — than as unconscious feelings or urges."

"Mircea Eliade argued that one of the foremost functions of myth is to establish models for behavior and that myths may also provide a religious experience. By telling or reenacting myths, members of traditional societies detach themselves from the present and return to the mythical age, thereby bringing themselves closer to the divine."


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: What Is Mythology? [Re: Nymphet]
    #21326349 -

Nymphet said:
This is my personal opinion but mythology to me is when world/society's thoughts or beliefs change or become something else and become no longer believed by the general populace. Such as the way the Greeks believed in Zeus and other deities and were sure things change and collective minds have decided that it is no longer true. I think someday all the major popular religions of the current age will change or be forgotten and be considered mythology. This is just my perspective.:tongue2:


I see so you are defining 'mythology' as something that ONCE was believed?

I don't think that way. For example, I can see/have learned that the Olympian gods mythology of ancient Greece was a mythology which took over and suppressed a more ancient mythology. but mythology is mythology. In its benign aspect it is the natural creative outpourings of the psyche and collective psyche, but in its more toxic form it is a mind control contrived by an elitist enslaving control-freak mindset

Notice how many Christians will not accept that their 'religion' is mythology! They will argue that it is more historical. Whereas Pagans always would admit their mythology was mythology and was metaphor etc, the Christians insisted that mythology was false bla bla. They also argued, laughably, that if there were any pre-existing mythological similarities
with Christianity then that was the result of Satan/theDevil trying to fool people and turn them away from 'God'.

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Re: What Is Mythology? [Re: zzripz]
    #21326789 -

what about the 'creation myth' of our civilization?

It features the image of a Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil

How many layers of understanding has this myth. Well I have learnt the deepest layer which is hidden from the 'profane' is that the Three and its Fruit is psychedelic

And that the biblical myth which has the 'God' who is the 'Father' of the later-to-be 'Jesus' is a patriarchal myth which is using very ancient pre-literal IMAGEry to de-grade its meaning by using the relatively new invention of abstract text

So it is a warning off the people of the Old Religion of the Goddess away from her symbolism and Fruit--whilst meanwhile a secret patriarchal esoteric elite do take it and interpret the experience according to their own patriarchal worldview which includes divide and conquer

This is seen in the surface intention of the myth:
Quote:
Judaism

In Jewish tradition, the Tree of Knowledge and the eating of its fruit represents the beginning of the mixture of good and evil together. Before that time, the two were separate, and evil had only a nebulous existence in potentia. While free choice did exist before eating the fruit, evil existed as an entity separate from the human psyche, and it was not in human nature to desire it. Eating and internalizing the forbidden fruit changed this and thus was born the yeitzer hara, the Evil Inclination.[6][7] In Rashi's notes on Genesis 3:3, the first sin came about because Eve added an additional clause to the Divine command: Neither shall you touch it. By saying this, Eve added to YHWH's command and thereby came to detract from it, as it is written: Do not add to His Words (Proverbs 30:6).

clickme

IE as said, it puts into the mind of the believer that 'good' and 'evil' were originally independent of each other, and so eating the fruit brought evil into the mind of man and into nature, and this 'sin' was ultimately blamed on a woman/womenkind

you can't get more patrairchal than that!

So seeing what they do. The patriarchal rpiest scribes have demoted the Goddess to a mortal character, Eve, and adding insult to injury, have her come from the male, Adam, on the 'God's orders, instead as is the more natural, humans are delivered from the female, not the male body.

So in looking at mythology like this you are seeing through to a real mythology underlying it which is the more benign

in fact, the REAL core mythology--the living mythology, is the knowledge of, and eating of, the psychedelic fruit itself!

Edited by zzripz (02/25/15 07:39 AM)

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Re: What Is Mythology? [Re: zzripz] * 2
    #21327955 -

I love how this forum operates. Op asks a question and Markos provides a very solid response only to be disregarded as op then tells all viewers what mythology truly is. :rolleyes:

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Re: What Is Mythology? [Re: cez]
    #21330139 -

What can I say cez? :shrug: I gave some of the best sources of the 20th century, that I was familiar with. The 21st century is still new, but there are no radically different, insightful ideas about myth at this time that I have heard. The notion that myths are merely fanciful explanations about existence in the pre-scientific world is a completely inadequate hypothesis. Myths are descriptive narratives, arrived at not by the senses and reason, but by intuition. I find it fascinating that the "Fiat Lux!" of Genesis is a mythic personification of what is mathematically hypothesized as the Big Bang. Moreover, the human mind is still a myth-making mind, and post-modern myths are more often than not depicted in film, but the themes are universal and timeless, not new. Most of current humanity adheres to religious myths.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: What Is Mythology? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #21331335 -

All mythology is first and foremost allegorical description of psychedelic altered-state experiencing. And all religious stories are myths.

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Re: What Is Mythology? [Re: psilojoe]
    #21331401 -

Yes, mythology is innate in our being. John Weir Perry founded a place in the early 70s called DIABASIS where people with 'schiziphrenia' 'psychosis' 'bi polar' could go and be treated with love and respect and not have psychiatric drugs pushed on them, and in his book Trials of the Visionary Mind, he shows how people experiencing these deep states which this cultures calls 'mental illness' are experiencing mythical dimensions of experience, and that if these experiences are facilitated and not suppressed with drugs, and people being treated as less than human, then there can be real healing

In my own life I can see mythical themes. For example, losing the magic of nature as a little kid, and become obsessed with the big mean metropolis along with the mean crowds and sleazy neon lit city night life, I find myself IN a big city, and it is there these hippies invite me to a 'party' and on the way one offers me a tiny BLUE PILL (will the boy take it? Won't the boy take it?). I eat it and then....from there and more LSD trips I am experiencing the magic and aliveness of nature again
So there are various ways I could tell that part of my life, in a prosaic linear historical factual way, or in a mythical way which I have just said, and going deep into that mode. And would you know it, PSYCHEDELICS are right at the centre of my story, though they don't have to be, there also happen all kinds of deep experiences in our lives

But there is an essence of mythology we are always living, individually and collectively along with other species and all of nature. BUT there are mindsets who will use what I call toxic myths as a form of control and enslavement, and I think one of the main ways is to divide us from these deeper parts of ourselves all the better to manipulate us without our being aware of what they are doing. Like the Genesis myth where they hide the real primordial meanings of images, and de-grade them

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Re: What Is Mythology? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #21331550 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
there are no radically different, insightful ideas about myth at this time that I have heard.


Then you haven't heard the entheogen theory of mythic metaphor, that mythology metaphorically describes drug-induced altered state experiencing, in particular the experience of mystical death and rebirth (ego death).

Campbell's theory of myth was only indirectly legitimate from the point of view of the entheogen theory, he understood that myth was metaphorical, but he took the metaphor to be a reference to the ordinary state of consciousness (ie ordinary life). The idea that the metaphor describes drug experience is radically new and different

Edited by psilojoe (02/26/15 06:11 AM)

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Re: What Is Mythology? [Re: psilojoe]
    #21332580 -

psilojoe said:
MarkostheGnostic said:
there are no radically different, insightful ideas about myth at this time that I have heard.


Then you haven't heard the entheogen theory of mythic metaphor, that mythology metaphorically describes drug-induced altered state experiencing, in particular the experience of mystical death and rebirth (ego death).

Campbell's theory of myth was only indirectly legitimate from the point of view of the entheogen theory, he understood that myth was metaphorical, but he took the metaphor to be a reference to the ordinary state of consciousness (ie ordinary life). The idea that the metaphor describes drug experience is radically new and different


which reminds me. I was in two minds whether to link this video to here which I saw earlier today, but I will now. As you will see this guy seems--in a little bit of an arrogant way--to 'really explain mythology and its deeper meaning', BUT in this part and if I remember right, all previous parts, there is no direct mention of entheogen theory. At the end he begins talking about the Garden of Eden myth and its Tree and Fruit and he doesn't say a whisper of its hidden mythical relationship to psychedelic vegetation and I can almost predict that he will not mention its real meaning being of a psychedelic nature in his promised final installment (I was tempted to contact him and ask if he had had psychedelic experience)--as John Allegro shows in his book The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, and you see this motif in other mythologies

Robert Graves was onto this of course, and it was him that encouraged Gordon Wasson to seek out the Mazatec Indigenous people and their secret magic mushrooms religion in the late 1950s!

To talk about mythology without understanding the psychedelic dimensions is to me superficial though it is quite informative.
It was my finding Allegro's book which really turned me onto looking at mythology more seriously and deeper


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Re: What Is Mythology? [Re: psilojoe]
    #21332619 -

psilojoe said:
MarkostheGnostic said:
there are no radically different, insightful ideas about myth at this time that I have heard.


Then you haven't heard the entheogen theory of mythic metaphor, that mythology metaphorically describes drug-induced altered state experiencing, in particular the experience of mystical death and rebirth (ego death).

Campbell's theory of myth was only indirectly legitimate from the point of view of the entheogen theory, he understood that myth was metaphorical, but he took the metaphor to be a reference to the ordinary state of consciousness (ie ordinary life). The idea that the metaphor describes drug experience is radically new and different


No, I'm afraid you are in error. The psycho-dramas that took place at Eleusis for 1000 years, utilizing the myth of Persephone's abduction by Hade to the Underworld, while she was collecting psychoactive herbs in a fennel stalk, was quite ancient. What you are saying sounds like entheogens are a recent phenomenon. At Eleusis, the divine kykeon is hypothesized to have been an entheogenic barley brew, possibly flavored with mint, but containing an extract of the less dangerous ergot Claviceps paspali (not the famous Claviceps purpurea).

The Mystery Rites at Eleusis were about Initiatory death and rebirth, but the participants who paid quite a bit to attend were also warned that revealing any of the Mysteries experienced there was punishable by death! Some scholars have theorized that the Ideal Forms theory of Plato came directly from said experience, and moreover, others have suggested that Socrates was put to death for using the kykeon outside of the Rites with his followers.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (02/26/15 04:02 PM)

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Re: What Is Mythology? [Re: zzripz]
    #21336862 -

Mythology are stories.

Myths are stories that contain different roles, exchanges, and paths that are at least common, if not universal, to the human experience. Carl Jung labeled these roles and patterns to be "archetypes".

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Re: What Is Mythology? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #21346815 -

Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
there are no radically different, insightful ideas about myth at this time that I have heard.


Then you haven't heard the entheogen theory of mythic metaphor, that mythology metaphorically describes drug-induced altered state experiencing, in particular the experience of mystical death and rebirth (ego death).

Campbell's theory of myth was only indirectly legitimate from the point of view of the entheogen theory, he understood that myth was metaphorical, but he took the metaphor to be a reference to the ordinary state of consciousness (ie ordinary life). The idea that the metaphor describes drug experience is radically new and different


No, I'm afraid you are in error. The psycho-dramas that took place at Eleusis for 1000 years, utilizing the myth of Persephone's abduction by Hade to the Underworld, while she was collecting psychoactive herbs in a fennel stalk, was quite ancient. What you are saying sounds like entheogens are a recent phenomenon. At Eleusis, the divine kykeon is hypothesized to have been an entheogenic barley brew, possibly flavored with mint, but containing an extract of the less dangerous ergot Claviceps paspali (not the famous Claviceps purpurea).

The Mystery Rites at Eleusis were about Initiatory death and rebirth, but the participants who paid quite a bit to attend were also warned that revealing any of the Mysteries experienced there was punishable by death! Some scholars have theorized that the Ideal Forms theory of Plato came directly from said experience, and moreover, others have suggested that Socrates was put to death for using the kykeon outside of the Rites with his followers.


Your reply here ^ bears no relation whatsoever to my post that you were replying to. Entheogens are at least as old as humanity itself, and mythology has always been about describing entheogen-induced altered states of consciousness. The myth of Demeter and Persephone that was told at Eleusis is just one example out of thousands of myths, but all myths serve the same essential purpose.

Mythology = Allegorical description of psychedelic experience

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Re: What Is Mythology? [Re: psilojoe]
    #21348434 -

"Your reply here ^ bears no relation whatsoever to my post that you were replying to. Entheogens are at least as old as humanity itself, and mythology has always been about describing entheogen-induced altered states of consciousness. The myth of Demeter and Persephone that was told at Eleusis is just one example out of thousands of myths, but all myths serve the same essential purpose.

Mythology = Allegorical description of psychedelic experience"

My response "bears no relation to my post?" "No relation." Really? Try reading it again. Your premise is naively materialistic in reducing the myth-making, archetypal mind to the psychedelic experience. The psychedelic experience refers to a series of phases that have taxonomies in post-modern thought. I recommend the one found in The Varieties of Psychedelic Experience by Dr. Jean Houston & R.E.L. Masters. The AWARENESS of the mythic strata of consciousness CAN arise during a trip, but that strata of the psyche is not created by the psychedelic agent. That strata constitutes the archetypal infrastructure of the psyche - the Collective Unconscious - and exists as the unconscious matrix from which consciousness arises in infancy. An allegory is not the same as a symbol. Symbols according to Jung are living psychic realities. Allegory might have a dictionary definition of symbol, but the moral or political messages embodied in allegories are later conscious elaborations, removed from the pre-verbal, pre-rational power that symbols embody. The Varieties of Psychedelic Experience is not available on-line, but this page from Jay Stevens' Storming Heaven illustrates my point:

https://books.google.com/books?id=clFOY2-E6CcC&pg=PA370&lpg=PA370&dq=masters+and+houston,+varieties+of+psychedelic+experience,+recollective+level&source=bl&ots=sQHEHzcqgX&sig=vUEEgwXmD0K4LkFaMUIoeFKQ3qk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=J3zzVNPVKoX4yATn4IHgAg&ved=0CDUQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=masters%20and%20houston%2C%20varieties%20of%20psychedelic%20experience%2C%20recollective%20level&f=false

Reducing the myth-making level of the psyche to the effects of a psychedelic is the same materialist error of reducing a transcendental experience to the effect of a chemical. Indeed, the same mentality that holds that to be true, must necessarily hold that ALL conscious experience or consciousness itself is reducible to an emergent property of chemical and biological materials. I tend toward philosophical Idealism when it comes to the ontological priority of consciousness over matter, but realistically, the relationship between mind and matter remains an insoluble Mystery at this point. Regardless, the Unconscious has primacy over consciousness with regard to the nature of the mythic level of the psyche, and psychedelics can allow consciousness to illuminate what what previously unconscious to it. But that unconscious, mythic material was present all along, and belongs to the human race (Collective Unconscious), not to individual personal unconscious material that has been suppressed or repressed.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: What Is Mythology? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #21350686 -

Jung's theory of mythology fails for exactly the same reason that Campbell's theory fails (Campbell's theory is really just an updated version of Jung's older theory), because both Jung and Campbell were entirely unaware of the psychedelic altered state of consciousness, and therefore they were also unaware of the relation between the psychedelic state and mythological symbolism.

Both Jung and Campbell held that mythology symbolises elements of ordinary, mundane sober everyday experience (in the ordinary/sober state of consciousness), in this was they were both blind to the entheogenic altered-state symbolism contained in mythic storylines.

Jung never tripped in his lifetime, so he was never able to discover the deeper level of altered-state symbolism in mythology. So Jung's theory (just like Campbell's) is only indirectly legitimate. Jung recognised the essential similarity between all the different myths, but he did not recognise what the core mythic storyline (the transformative journey of the hero) really refers to (psychedelic mental transformation)

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Re: What Is Mythology? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #21350694 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
The psychedelic experience refers to a series of phases that have taxonomies in post-modern thought.


This ^ is meaningless nonsense, the term "psychedelic experience" refers to the subjective mental experience that the human mind undergoes following the ingestion of psychedelic plants and chemicals, that has nothing to do with "post-modern thought"

People have been eating entheogenic plants and tripping out (and mythologising their experiences) since the dawn of humanity, long before the modern era.

Edited by psilojoe (03/02/15 07:06 AM)

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Re: What Is Mythology? [Re: psilojoe]
    #21350955 -

Jung "tripped" many times without drugs, he was fully aware of the psychedelic experience and you don't need mushrooms to connect with something like Star Wars although it  might help. What makes you think sober life can't be archetypal/mythological? IME it most often is.

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Re: What Is Mythology? [Re: psilojoe]
    #21351331 -

psilojoe said:
Jung never tripped in his lifetime, so he was never able to discover the deeper level of altered-state symbolism in mythology. So Jung's theory (just like Campbell's) is only indirectly legitimate. Jung recognised the essential similarity between all the different myths, but he did not recognise what the core mythic storyline (the transformative journey of the hero) really refers to (psychedelic mental transformation)


Psychedelics aren't as integral to spiritual transformation as you seem to believe.

As Jim Fadiman said, "Meditation and psychedelics approach the same experience, meditation does it slowly and deliberately...but psychedelics also let you know there;'s something there that's worth sitting in meditation for 15 years to get."

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Re: What Is Mythology? [Re: psilojoe]
    #21351704 -

psilojoe said:
MarkostheGnostic said:
The psychedelic experience refers to a series of phases that have taxonomies in post-modern thought.


This ^ is meaningless nonsense, the term "psychedelic experience" refers to the subjective mental experience that the human mind undergoes following the ingestion of psychedelic plants and chemicals, that has nothing to do with "post-modern thought"

People have been eating entheogenic plants and tripping out (and mythologising their experiences) since the dawn of humanity, long before the modern era.


Yes, well you're obviously free to maintain whatever pet ideas give meaning to you whether it is informed by scholars, or just your own idiosyncratic creation. Post-modern thought is what post-modern people create to communicate phenomenon to one another. The meaning I have attempted to convey has obviously escaped you, hence your conclusion of "meaningless nonsense." My writing is completely lucid.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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General Interest > Spirituality & Mysticism
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