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InvisibleHefex78
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*DELETED*
    #2132233 - 11/24/03 12:46 PM (13 years, 18 days ago)

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Edited by Wa7sum (10/03/07 10:04 AM)


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InvisibleHefex78
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*DELETED* [Re: Hefex78]
    #2133012 - 11/24/03 07:13 PM (13 years, 18 days ago)

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Edited by Wa7sum (10/03/07 10:05 AM)


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Offlineragadinks
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Re: Mushroom Reproduction [Re: Hefex78]
    #2138435 - 11/26/03 06:39 PM (13 years, 16 days ago)

very interesting, but maybe this should go in the FAQ section ?


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InvisibleHefex78
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*DELETED* [Re: ragadinks]
    #2138491 - 11/26/03 07:22 PM (13 years, 16 days ago)

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Edited by Wa7sum (10/03/07 10:05 AM)


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Offlineragadinks
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Re: Mushroom Reproduction [Re: Hefex78]
    #2138621 - 11/26/03 08:31 PM (13 years, 16 days ago)

no, I appreciate your efforts. And you are right with what are you saying about the true mycophile. But I guess here it will get lost amongst all the other post after some time. In the FAQ section everyone could get access to it more easily all the time. But that is just my opinion ...


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-> It Is Not Important WHO Is Right But WHAT Is Right <-


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Mushroom Reproduction [Re: ragadinks]
    #2138804 - 11/26/03 10:21 PM (13 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

This is where things get strange. After the mating, the resultant cell can now reproduce by mitosis, but the cell still has 2 nuclei, as mentioned. So, when it mitoses, the 2 nuclei split for a total of 4 nuclei, but still only 2 cells.




That would be meiosis, and it forms 4 seperate cells. That is after karyogamy (nuclear fusion) after two monokaryons mate.

Basically, the monokaryons have one haploid nucleus, and they mate, forming a dakaryon with two haploid nuceli. These nuclei then fuse and form a single diploid nucleus. The cell, then, during meiosis, splits and forms 4 seperate haploid cells (spores.)

Ref = The Fungi, Watkinson + Gooday 2nd ed. pg. 248

--
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Invisiblespores
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Re: Mushroom Reproduction [Re: micro]
    #2141972 - 11/28/03 12:50 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

hrmm, maybe I read that wrong, but how would 2 haploid nuclei be able to go through meiosis and make 4?  That would involve replication of chromosomes, no? 

http://www.cbc.umn.edu/~mwd/cell_www/chapter3/meiosis.html
meiosis:
  A specialised form of nuclear division in which there two successive
  nuclear divisions (meiosis I and II) without any chromosome replication
  between them.

I think the quote referred to the stage prior to karyogamy, where the mycelium is binucleate (2 unfused haploid nuclei) but not yet diploid.  The process of 2 monokaryons mating is known as plasmogamy, karyogamy (and therefore meiosis) doesn't occur until quite some time later.

The 2 nuclei do not fuse (karyogamy) directly after plasmogamy, but continue growth as a dikaryotic, binucleate organism.  It's not until the gills of the mushroom are formed that certain dikaryotic cells (the developing basidia) undergo karyogamy to create diploid cells. Very shortly after this meiosis occurs and haploid spores are generated from those cells. The diploid phase in basidiomycetes is very short and only occurs in the spore bearing part of the fruit body.

Maybe this link will help clear things up a little for those interested, it's a little more in-depth, and includes when and where things happen, which is of some importance if ya want to get technical :smile: :

http://www.mansfield.ohio-state.edu/~sabedon/campbl31.htm

Sexual reproduction (note: order of terms is relevant):
?        Germination (a process)

?        mitosis

?        Hyphae (ploidy = n)

?        mitosis

?        Mycelium (ploidy = n)       

?        Plasmogamy (a process) (= fusion of cytoplasm)

?        Dikaryotic stage (ploidy = n + n) (occurs within zygosporangia for Zygomycete, ascogonia for Ascomycete, or hyphae for Basidiomycete)

?        mitosis

?        Karyogamy (a process) (= fusion of haploid nuclei)

?        Diploidy (ploidy = 2n) (occurs within zygosporangia for Zygomycete, ascocarps for Ascomycete, or basidiocarps for Basidiomycete)

?        Meiosis (a process)

?        Spore-producing structures (ploidy = n) (= sporangium for Zygomycete, asci for Ascomycete, or basidia for Basciomycete)

?        Spores (ploidy = n)  (= spores for Zygomycete, ascospores for Ascomycete, or basidiospores for Basciomycete)

Lather, rinse and repeat :tongue:

DH 


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Mushroom Reproduction [Re: spores]
    #2142143 - 11/28/03 02:29 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Mushrooms are wierd like this. They contain 2 completely seperate sets of genes with similar loci in the diploid, so you could say, in a way, that the dikaryotes are somewhat like 2 sets of organisms. The diploid cell (after karyogamy) is what undergoes meiosis -- but, yes -- this is only in spore formation.

Does this make sense?

--
Micro


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Edited by micro (11/28/03 02:32 PM)


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Offlinepluteus
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Re: Mushroom Reproduction [Re: micro]
    #2142486 - 11/28/03 05:36 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

hey Wa7sum
some suggestions of refinements you could make to your ?outline?

""""When spores germinate a thread emerges from the spore casing. When two threads from different spore bodies intersect, they attempt to mate through a hook and clamp connection. A tiny pipe is opened between threads and genetic material is exchanged. The genetically complete threads become hyphae and begin to grow.""""

The 'thread' emerging from a germinating spore is already called a hypha. The fusion of two (monokaryotic) hyphae is not necessarily immediately associated with a "hook and clamp connection" - rather, clamp connections form in the secondary mycelium after successful mating. The hyphae undergoing fusion do not usually produce 'tiny pipes' but have the same dimensions as normal vegetative hyphae.

"""""Spores have four combinations of sexes. Not all intersecting threads are able to mate, not all matings will produce fertile mycelia."""""

This is a bit confused - the spores produced by any single fruitbody of P. cubensis can be grouped into four mating types. But in the wider population of P. cubensis many hundreds of mating types (?sexes?) can be represented.

""""Spores form as swellings on one or more subtending hypha in the soil or in roots. These structures contain lipids, cytoplasm and many nuclei. Spores usually develop thick walls with more than one layer and can function as propagules. Spores may be aggregated into groups called sporocarps. Sporocarps may contain specialized hyphae and can be encased in an outer layer (peridium). Spores apparently form when nutrients are remobilised from roots where associations are senescing. They function as storage structures, resting stages and propagules. Spores may form specialized germination structures, or hyphae may emerge through the subtending hyphae or grow directly through the wall. """""

If you're aiming to produce a background guide to Psilocybe cubensis reproduction, little of this information really applies. P. cubensis produces sexual spores on its above-ground gills, not directly from subterranean mycelium or 'roots'. The sporocarps of P. cubensis are its mushrooms, and these do not have a peridium. Its spore production has nothing to do with senescing associations with 'roots'. The last sentence is also inapplicable to P. cubensis as its spores produce don't specialized structures upon germination, and the bit about hyphae growing through walls doesn't make sense in this context.

"""""This is where things get strange. After the mating, the resultant cell can now reproduce by mitosis, but the cell still has 2 nuclei, as mentioned. So, when it mitoses, the 2 nuclei split for a total of 4 nuclei, but still only 2 cells. Speed of growth is much greater in these dikaryotic mycelial threads, because they don't have to stretch a single cell over a long gap. They simply split into more cells to spread."""""

First of all, the haploid nuclei in a monokaryotic mycelium reproduce by mitosis from point of germination (and sometimes before). After successful mating, mitotic division continues as before, except that the two parent nuclei are now paired. Dikaryotic growth is not faster because of any difference in cell stretching requirements - (the monokaryotic stage of many mushroom species is already multicellular - i.e., septate). Faster growth is the result of nuclear co-operation, developmental pathways switched on by mating events, and the availability of more genetic material for transcription.

"""""Clamp connections form between 2 dikaryotic mycelial masses. This is how one of those white patches in the jar mates with the other white patches. The dikaryotic mycelia "clamps" together. And thus, reproduction is complete.""""""

Clamp connections are formed in the single dikaryotic mycelium produced by two compatible monokaryotic mycelia. Clamps have nothing to do with a physical mass clamping of two dikaryons. They are specialized structures formed at the junction of each new hyphal compartment (cell) following succesful mating, which allow the paired nuclei to maintain their strict association in a 1:1 per cell ratio. Many sexual mushroom species lack clamps all together, and in some species monokaryons already have clamps. Also, sexual reproduction is not complete with the advent of clamp formation. Sexual reproduction is ?complete? at the point of spore production.


DH ? as micro said, meiosis occurs immediately after diploidization via karyogamy in the developing basidium, so there is no problem with chromosome numbers


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InvisibleHefex78
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*DELETED* [Re: pluteus]
    #2142580 - 11/28/03 06:10 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Post deleted. Reason for deletion: Confidential.


Edited by Wa7sum (10/03/07 10:05 AM)


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Mushroom Reproduction [Re: Hefex78]
    #2142846 - 11/28/03 08:09 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Disregard my post above -- I read the original post wrong.  I thought you were talking about 4 cells, not nuceli.  Sorry!

It is kind of a strange way of saying things, though -- maybe just say that each nucleus splits....  Just a thought.

Makes sense to me :smile:

By the by, though, this thread has nothing to do with mushroom reproduction.  Reproduction involves the formation of spores -- I read the original post very quickly, I admit, because I was drunk, but I assumed you were talking about meiosis because that's how mushrooms reproduce.  This is anastomosis, not reproduction.

--
Micro

--
Micro


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Edited by micro (11/28/03 09:34 PM)


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Offlineragadinks
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Re: Mushroom Reproduction [Re: micro]
    #2143639 - 11/29/03 02:50 AM (13 years, 14 days ago)

he Wa7sum - make your intro easily understandable for dummies like me ! All the words like meioses, mitoses, anaXXosis etc. screw up my brain ... 
:confused: 


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-> It Is Not Important WHO Is Right But WHAT Is Right <-


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Offlinecanid
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Re: Mushroom Reproduction [Re: ragadinks]
    #2153081 - 12/02/03 10:31 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

Wa7sum: great writeup so far. perhaps you and pluteus-if willing-should go in on this, and make a dynamic guide including a hyperlinked glossary for submission to the FAQ. i'm sure if you where to do so, it would be given fair consideration.


--------------------



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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Mushroom Reproduction [Re: canid]
    #2161788 - 12/05/03 04:04 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Personally I greatly dislike the analogy to seeds. When you compare spores to seeds, then you lose people with spore mating, hypae etc. Seeds don't do any of that. If you want to use the word seed at all, maybe say that a spore is like a half of a seed that needs to mate with another compatible half-seed before it can thrive vegetatively.

I just always found that trying to understand fungi with botanical terms and analogies leads to more confusion than simply learning about them in terms of fungi. Plants simply don't have relative life stages to fungi, and plant based analogies seem to imply that they do.


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