Home | Community | Message Board


World Seed Supply
Please support our sponsors.

Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Advanced Mycology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Original Seeds Store Buy Cannabis Seeds, Buy CBD   Amazon ½ Pint Jars, Agar, Calcium Carbonate, Coir, Dehydrator, Oyster Shell, Paul Stamets, Peat, pH Test Strips, Propolis, Rye Grain, Vermiculite

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineBlue Helix
bold hand
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,125
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Trusted Cultivator
What am I doing wrong with my casings?
    #3920387 - 03/15/05 11:46 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I want to hear from advanced cultivators here. I have been growing mushrooms for a long time, and I have experienced this problem for a long time too. What I see is that no matter how I make a tray, bulk stray, rye grain, manure spawned, etc., that often, I'd say about 2/3rds the time lately, the mycelium shows very weak or no penetration into the casing layer, and there is no obvious reason why.

I am using 50:50 casing formulation with oyster shells and garden lime. Also, I have a very sensitive pH probe that I keep calibrated to test for optimal pH. I have tried really wet casings, really dry casings, several brands of oyster shell, and a few types of calcium carbonate, strain isolating on agar. NOTHING seems to matter! One time the mycelium will race through an inch of casing material like it was nothing, and when that happens I might even have trouble with the mycelium stopping before it's overlaid! But more often the mycelium will barely touch the casing and I end up having to scrape it off.

I have done extensive searches on the Shroomery about this topic. What I have noticed is that as soon as someone says they are having this trouble either (a) they don't get a reply or (b) it ends up the guy was doing something super dumb like making up a super dry casing, not pH-balancing the casing, no incubating the casing at the proper temperature, etc. But I am not doing any of those things.

I have nearly run out of theories about why this happens, and it happens most of the time. I have experienced this problem so many times that I am starting to wonder if I am cursed or something. Mostly when I scape off the casing after about a week, I can still get decent flushes but not like when the mycelium rips through the casing as it should. What is going that causes this? Things I have considered are:

1) Is my constant looking at the casing switching it to a fruiting mode?

2) Maybe the original moisture content of the substrate is too low (it does feel pretty dry after colonization)?

I am looking for input from experienced growers here. Am I the only one who has this problem or is this the unspoken problem that no one wants to talk about? Don't get my wrong; I can still grow too many shrooms for me and all my buds, but it still drives me nuts that I can't grow them with any consistency. When the mycelium does rip through the casing, the flushes are heavy. When it doesn't, they are much lower, so I got to figure this out. What is the deal?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAnnoA
Experimenter
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 06/18/99
Posts: 24,123
Loc: my room
Last seen: 5 months, 18 days
Re: What am I doing wrong with my casings? [Re: Blue Helix]
    #3920460 - 03/15/05 12:05 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

>One time the mycelium will race through an inch of casing material like it was nothing, and
>when that happens I might even have trouble with the mycelium stopping before it's
>overlaid! But more often the mycelium will barely touch the casing and I end up having to
>scrape it off.

Same strain and same substrate?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinescatmanrav
Brainy Smurf

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,483
Loc: Flag
Last seen: 4 years, 11 months
Trusted Cultivator
Re: What am I doing wrong with my casings? [Re: Blue Helix]
    #3920475 - 03/15/05 12:07 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Well, I would say that you arent using a short term buffer, only two long term ones..hydrated lime may help...BUT you have a meter and its 7-7.5 when you apply the casing?

You incubate the casing as well you say, how long do you incubate? Incubation and iniation are key to perfect colonization of the casing layer. Perhaps you iniate early? Especially if you run a colder chamber, it'll slow vegatative growth quicker. Do you use clear casing containers? This is a problem if you expose it to light to early, it switches to pinning from the side light and the top of the casing can suffer.

If the substrate were dry, the casing layer should hydrate it, but if you still feel this could be a problem, try verm mixed into the substrate for better water holding capabilities...it definatly helps out when fruiting directly off of grain, and allows casings to be dunked (of course they can be without verm but the grains dont rehydrate well).

Different strains will also need to be incubated longer then others...and not just time wise...but colonization wise. My GT's just keep on growing and growing and take forever to start pinning so I have to put them in without incubation, before it colonizes anything or I end up with overlay. Most other strains though are good to be fruited when the mycelium is JUST below the entire surface but not quite showing..some like Amazons though started pinning incredibly easy and need to be incubated until some of the mycelium is showing on the surface to get nice colonization of the casing layer by the time fruits come.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBlue Helix
bold hand
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,125
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Trusted Cultivator
Re: What am I doing wrong with my casings? [Re: Blue Helix]
    #3920497 - 03/15/05 12:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Since I have had this trouble, I have been using only B+. The substrates I use are (a) horse manure spawned out with rye (90% of the time) and (b) rye cased. I have not been doing straw trays lately, but I did also have this happen with cased straw years back. My casings are generally about 1" deep over 3" of rye or 4-5" of manure/vermiculite. Substrate colonization is never a problem. It's always super fast and complete. The casing is the trouble. Like I said, it's either hot or cold with the casing (mostly cold lately). Either the mycelium races through the casing or it won't touch it. I have not tried to clone mycelium that raced through the casing because I kept thinking that it wasn't strain related, but at this point, I am open to any suggestions.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinescatmanrav
Brainy Smurf

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,483
Loc: Flag
Last seen: 4 years, 11 months
Trusted Cultivator
Re: What am I doing wrong with my casings? [Re: Blue Helix]
    #3920524 - 03/15/05 12:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

1" is very thick. I never go above 3/4", even up to 6 inches of substrate...and if I'm having problems such as yours...I would go even thinner, 1/4"-1/2".

And it could also be due to multispore inoculations. I mean, you shoot millions of babies into lots of different jars and your bound to come up with a number of retards...

Try something even as simple as grain to grain transfers...especially from a jar started from a clone of a mushroom. If you knock up a single jar to 24, they should preform pretty similar. In a multispore jar there could be multiple myceliums so even transfering this you'll get some variation...a tissue sample from a mushroom to start the first jar helps that alot though...


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBlue Helix
bold hand
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,125
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Trusted Cultivator
Re: What am I doing wrong with my casings? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3920528 - 03/15/05 12:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

scatmanrav, for my horse manure trays were not clear. I only tried that recently with a rye grain tray. I incubate for about 7 days. If I don't see the mycelium through by then, it has always stalled. What's wild is the variability here. I am pulled my hair out trying to figure this one out too. You or your friend or whatever have some good looking tray. Have you heard of this problem before?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBlue Helix
bold hand
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,125
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Trusted Cultivator
Re: What am I doing wrong with my casings? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3920541 - 03/15/05 12:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

scatmanrav, you say 1" is too thick, yet when the mycelium does race though the casing, it's just enough to stop it from overlay. I am getting this 1" number from The Mushroom Cultivator which recommends a casing 1/4th the substrate depth. It doesn't seem depth-related. When it runs the casing, 1" isn't a problem at all. When it doesn't, 1/2" is too much. The one thing I have not tried is cloning a run that raced through the casing. If that is the problem, then why don't others ever talk about having to clone like this? It seems no one talks about having trouble with casing runs except the total idiots who are doing stuff like incubating at 65F or some such.


Edited by Blue Helix (03/15/05 12:29 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleArp
roving mycophagist
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
Re: What am I doing wrong with my casings? [Re: Blue Helix]
    #3921284 - 03/15/05 04:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Did you ever try straight verm and see if that would work any better?
Multispores should work aswell. I've done it.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBlue Helix
bold hand
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,125
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Trusted Cultivator
Re: What am I doing wrong with my casings? [Re: Arp]
    #3921362 - 03/15/05 04:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I haven't tried straight vermiculite because like I said when it goes through the casing, it goes through really super fast. I never had to do anything special for sure.

The way I see it, it has to be either supporting substrate, substrain, casing material, or incubation conditions. The casing is pretty much covered since I never change that. I want to try to tease apart substrain since I really don't think it has anything to do with that.

I will do that by doing this: I have a rye grain tray now that has stalled the casing run. I am going to scrape the casing off and let the grain spawn some horse manure moistened slightly more than my usual. I will then recase using one inch and see how it goes. If it goes through, then that will tell me that its a problem with the supporting substrate (perhaps too dry) and not the casing, environmentals, or substrain. If it doesn't go through, then it won't tell me anything. I think it's a good experiment.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisible@cro
new name
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/07/02
Posts: 1,224
Loc: The PNW
Re: What am I doing wrong with my casings? [Re: Blue Helix]
    #3921443 - 03/15/05 04:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

My guess would be the timing in your casing application. Try casing slightly earlier, before 100% colonization. It sounds like the mycelium is losing its vigor at the end, possibly due to loss of substrate.
Peace


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBlue Helix
bold hand
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,125
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Trusted Cultivator
Re: What am I doing wrong with my casings? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3923179 - 03/15/05 11:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I took the tray that wouldn't penetrate the casing and spawned out a new tray of horse manure in a close manner to the recommendations of scatmanrav (i.e. thinly laid). It is 1.75" deep and about 50% rye and 50% horse/buffalo manure. The horse manure was added such that the mix is closer to saturation than I normally run, but I figured it would be a good idea since the substrate is also thin and the rye was maybe a little dry. In accordance to scatmanrav's recommendations, I'll keep the casing about 1/2" or less and lay it immediately after colonization, not waiting even a day. If this works, I'll know that this casing penetration problem is not substrain-related but rather substrate related. I'll let everyone know.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBlue Helix
bold hand
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,125
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Trusted Cultivator
Re: What am I doing wrong with my casings? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3929897 - 03/17/05 12:13 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

scatmanrav, I wanted to let you know that your pH question made me get my probe out and recalibrate it and test that casing. I had switched peat moss to a more expensive brand and garden lime too but never recalibrated the formula. The pH of the casing I was having trouble with was about 7.9, a little high. I find that for every brand peat I've ever tried, the 50/50 Tek runs too high pH if you mix it up like they suggest. I mixed the casing down for the next tray to 7.5. I think I have to take about 25% of the garden lime out of the 50/50 mix to get the pH down to 7.5. I wonder if the guy who made that Tek even had a good pH probe (+/-.01 or +/-.02 accuracy) to test it out. I doubt it.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleOlgualion
Shaman-In-Training
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/14/01
Posts: 1,253
Loc: Currently Earth...
Trusted Cultivator
Re: What am I doing wrong with my casings? [Re: Blue Helix]
    #3930079 - 03/17/05 01:05 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

This is just a stab in the dark, but...

I once had a similar problem:
How do you apply your lime?  I used to just mix the ingredients together and bring to just beyond field cap.  The mycelium sometimes wouldn't penetrate.  What I began doing was adding the lime to the water first, then totally saturate the casing mixture and drain.

Microwave pasteurisation has worked IME.  It has always worked since.

Hope this helps.

***edit

Sorry I don't have any numbers or measurements.  I have never used any equipment other than choice books, and my body, mind, and spirit.  Sometimes meditating on the question helps...  no really... :wink:


Edited by Olgualion (03/17/05 01:12 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBlue Helix
bold hand
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,125
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Trusted Cultivator
Re: What am I doing wrong with my casings? [Re: Olgualion]
    #3932155 - 03/17/05 09:22 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Olgualion, I think by doing that process, you are basically reducing the added lime. I also believe that pH plays a major role in casings, and I think most casings mixed up like those in the 50-50 tek probably end up around 7.7-8.0. Still, I can't trace the casing run problem down to pH although I've tried which is why I have the sensitive pH meter and calibration solutions. An overly high pH might sometimes have a part in the problem, but I don't think it's the core issue here.

The new horse manure nearly colonized in 48 hours and my core temperature probe indicates that the tray was generating a lot of heat. That's probably because of the very high spawn rate (more spawn than manure in there). The bed is only 1.75" thick, so I was able to keep the heat in under control despite the large heat generation.

I laid the casing tonight even though the bed was only 98% colonized. Like I wrote, I brought the casing pH down to 7.5 and laid it extremely thin, about 1/3" - 1/2". For a 1.75" grain/manure tray, I think that's about right. The casing is so thin that is should penetrate all over in no more than 72 hours if things are working as they should be.

I'll keep this thread up-to-date with my failure or success. This is a very important experiment to see if the same mycelium that couldn't penetrate the casing before now can with the addition of a lot of substrate water and a change in substrate composition.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleOlgualion
Shaman-In-Training
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/14/01
Posts: 1,253
Loc: Currently Earth...
Trusted Cultivator
Re: What am I doing wrong with my casings? [Re: Blue Helix]
    #3933058 - 03/17/05 11:54 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Excellent.  Keep us updated!  Good luck! :smile:


--------------------
Study the past...
See the future...


Edited by Olgualion (03/18/05 12:42 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBlue Helix
bold hand
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,125
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Trusted Cultivator
Re: What am I doing wrong with my casings? [Re: Blue Helix]
    #3939222 - 03/19/05 11:01 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

UPDATE AND THEORY ABOUT WHAT I'VE BEEN SEEING

The mycelium went up and through the casing a bit, but it didn't get far before the bed temperature fell rapidly and it slowed down a lot. The mycelium went far enough, though, because the casing was very thin. It is in most all the valleys now. I traced the bed's core temperature but this time noticed how rapidly it fell once it started to fall below about 84. It is like the mycelium hit some trigger point and stopped. Then it hit me what has been probably going on.

It is very simple. When I moved to larger trays, the incubation of the bed during casing colonization was more dependent on internal warming of the bed and less on external heating. The trouble is that once the mycelium stops colonization and starts to move up through the casing, internal heat generation slows down and the temperature falls too low triggering fruiting. No matter how well I prepare the casing, once the fruiting is triggered, further casing colonization is slow at best.

That might seem silly to everyone here, but I started to think back about when I started having this problem. It was when I moved to larger trays and depended more on the mycelium's internal heat generation for incubation than the external heating. For smaller trays, I've always tub-in-tubbed them with proper heat controls, and I seldom had the casing colonization problem. Once I started going deeper, bigger manure trays, I tried heating the room somewhat, but I sort of halfway did it, keeping the room at 78 or 80F. That's too low and fruiting is usually triggered.

One thing I had tried doing to "fix" this problem was use a higher spawn rate or bee pollen. Ironically, those two things seemed to make things worse, but then I started to think about why. If one uses more spawn or bee pollen, colonization is faster but also the heat generation is sped up. The tray gets hotter like I was after but for a shorter time. Once the tray is colonized and the internal heat generation slows down, a certain temperature threshold is reached which triggers fruiting and casing colonization slows way down or stops.

I also think the trigger point is somewhat substrain influenced. A good example of a tray that just didn't get the time-to-fruit message easily was the tray in my peat-versus-coir thread (in this forum). That tray produced heat well beyond when I tried to get it to fruit and the casing colonized almost TOO well. I had real trouble with overlay on the coir side. I was just luck of the draw I guess.

The solution to my problem is probably either (a) to keep the casings real thin (thanks scatmanrav for that recommendation) or (b) do tub-in-tub heating or some other type that I can assure the substrate temperature doesn't fall below about 84F. Alternatively I can try to isolate a substrain that doesn't start to fruit so easily, but that's pretty much luck of the draw. If I come across a substrain like that again, I'll clone it.

I'll have some pictures for everyone soon of the thinly cased tray fruiting. I'll also keep tabs on yield to see if the thinly laid tray has a high biological efficiency since I have a rough idea of how much dry substrate was applied.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinescatmanrav
Brainy Smurf

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,483
Loc: Flag
Last seen: 4 years, 11 months
Trusted Cultivator
Re: What am I doing wrong with my casings? [Re: Blue Helix]
    #3939289 - 03/19/05 11:24 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Excellent stuff. Another thought, instead of tub in tubs (I know, they work well and all, used them plenty before and untill...) try heating a small closet. Personally I use a dehydrator on a timer to do so, but a space heater could work as well. Holds lots of jars, and great for big bulk casings.



Post back, if anything changes. Interesting reading though...I like reading about people really trying to perfect their methods and problems, it helps me to learn and further my own development.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinemushroommark
Earning mybluethumb

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 359
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
Re: What am I doing wrong with my casings? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3963317 - 03/24/05 03:45 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Wow, I was reading through this and REALLY racking my brain, just thinking about it. Problems like this from experienced growers like yourself really concern me.

Then to find out at the end that you had come to a very reasonable solution is very reassuring. Nice work and excellent brainstorming!

mushymark


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleZen Peddler
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
Re: What am I doing wrong with my casings? [Re: Blue Helix]
    #3963593 - 03/24/05 05:40 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

use coco coir mixed with verm - the pH seems automatically ideal and there is no fucking around with lime for pH


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBlue Helix
bold hand
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,125
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Trusted Cultivator
Re: What am I doing wrong with my casings? [Re: Blue Helix]
    #3964220 - 03/24/05 11:52 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah, bluemeanie, I've tried coco coir right next to pH-balanced peat with terrible results. The peat side colonized perfectly and the coco coir side went overlay city. I produced less than half the yield from the coco coir side. If you search, you can find that I wrote an advanced thread about this run, probably the only thread ever written that takes a tray and runs coco coir side-by-side with pH-balanced peat moss. The experiment showed that coco coir cannot be used just like peat like you are suggesting without terrible results.

I am not discounting that coco coir works, but it cannot be used like a pH-balanced peat moss or else it will overlay. Apparently it contains more nutrients than peat moss, and in my experience with it, I've noted that the mycelium colonizes ON it not THROUGH it. That is why coco coir is never recommended by top mycologists (including some you might know like Paul Stamets). And peat moss, unlike coco coir, has been used for at least a century and is solely used in the commercial cultivation of compost-loving mushrooms. They use it because it's cheap and works better than anything else.

Despite the trouble I've had using coco coir, I will not entirely discount it. I think the problems one has if one treats it like peat moss can be worked around with an early initiation and a different watering stategy, but I don't have time to work on another casing with a whole different set of problems.

At this point, what I've done to my current tray (and wrote about above) seems to have worked. I am within days of pinning I'd say, and the colonization of the thinner casing is even and completely perfect. The tray has all signs of being a home run, and I'll post pictures soon of the pins. For now here is the casing:



I have never seen a tray fail or produce small yields when it colonizes the casing perfectly like this, in the valleys but not over the top. Of course, there is a first time for anything...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Original Seeds Store Buy Cannabis Seeds, Buy CBD   Amazon ½ Pint Jars, Agar, Calcium Carbonate, Coir, Dehydrator, Oyster Shell, Paul Stamets, Peat, pH Test Strips, Propolis, Rye Grain, Vermiculite

Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Advanced Mycology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* substrate layer in casing mariasabina 1,200 4 03/28/02 01:25 AM
by mariasabina
* Thoughts On Vermiculite In Casings And Substrates
( 1 2 all )
Ripper 7,960 38 08/02/02 08:39 AM
by mycofile
* Casing Surgery Experiment? spifdo 644 4 05/24/05 08:41 PM
by 5meopsyco
* Most optimal way to case one quart? (tray dimensions etc) Peace_Patrol 1,080 4 03/14/03 03:25 AM
by debianlinux
* Hanging Casing psychomycul 1,317 8 10/25/02 01:00 PM
by shroomologist
* What exactly is it about casing? MisterMyco 1,311 10 02/03/06 11:16 AM
by thenewguy05
* Coco Coir cased Vertical straw columns...
( 1 2 all )
shiitake 4,313 26 10/20/04 07:15 PM
by Erik006
* polymer casing creekfarmer 1,284 15 11/10/03 01:44 PM
by armedia

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: RogerRabbit, bodhisatta
9,213 topic views. 2 members, 2 guests and 0 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Everything Mushrooms
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2017 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.036 seconds spending 0.003 seconds on 18 queries.