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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Go to Cuba, go to jail! [Re: hongomon]
    #2008376 -

I think the embargo has done more to keep Castro in power than anything else.

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Re: Go to Cuba, go to jail! [Re: wingnutx]
    #2008433 -

I'm going to do something here that you'll see very few people do. i'll not play the "party" game. I think that Bush is wrong for this decision. If Americans decide they want to visit Cuba, I don't see why that should be a crime. However, these Americans should be required to sign a waiver absolving the US of any responsibility, should anything happen. Thus, if they were taken hostage (I'm not saying it will happen, or is even probabl, I'm just saying we need to cover our asses), they should realize that they went against the advice of our country, and we won't use military force (or any other force, other than dialogue) to free them.

If we did it this way, it would be the same way that I think the nations drug laws should be. You are given the education to understand the risk, and the freedom to do what you want to do.


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

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Re: Go to Cuba, go to jail! [Re: lysergic]
    #2008514 -

I'm going to do something here that you'll see very few people do. i'll not play the "party" game.

A lot of posters here don't play the "party" game. You're just one of the ones who rarely doesn't.

I don't think a waiver is necessary. I think a travel warning similar to this should be sufficient ass coverage.

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Re: Go to Cuba, go to jail! [Re: lysergic]
    #2008519 -

It's nnot the tourist's there trying to protect it's the truth.. I know people who go to cuba a couple times a year and love it their.. Pretty much if you travel to any developing country you face the risk of kidnapping.. Cuba's one of the safest..

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Re: Go to Cuba, go to jail! [Re: Bhairabas]
    #2008533 -

Costa Rica is actualy the safest nation in south america. I've never been to Cuba, so I can't say anything about it. I believe that it's probably got a reat climate, and I lke all developing nations (friendlier people), I'm just not sure what I think about supporting the Castro regime.


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

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Re: Go to Cuba, go to jail! [Re: hongomon]
    #2008625 -

hongomon writes:

It doesn't seem fair to look at an island nation that has endured a strict embargo for 30 years, and judge its political-economic system.

More like forty years.

But anyway, it is hardly a strict embargo. It is the US and only the US that has an embargo with Cuba. There is nothing they could get (if they were allowed) from the US that they can't get from dozens of other countries. Cuba's politico-economic system cannot be blamed on the US embargo.

Having said that, I see no reason why the US chooses to continue the embargo. It accomplishes nothing anyway.

pinky


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Re: Go to Cuba, go to jail! [Re: Phred]
    #2008659 -

Quote:
It is the US and only the US that has an embargo with Cuba. There is nothing they could get (if they were allowed) from the US that they can't get from dozens of other countries.


It's amazing how few realize that.


Quote:
Cuba's politico-economic system cannot be blamed on the US embargo.


Heresy! Everything is the fault of the US.


Any problems Cuba has are of it's own making.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Go to Cuba, go to jail! [Re: Phred]
    #2008811 -

Forty, huh? How the time flies.

That the embargo is the US and the US only doesn't fairly describe the situation. Since the U.S. embargo covers all products that contain Cuban technology or raw materials, there's pressure on other countries who depend on trade with the US to essentially extend the embargo. Cuban has a hard time finding buyers for its sugar, for example. At one point there was a move to extend the embargo to include penalizing third-nation ships that dock in Cuba, but I don't know if that came about.

The US government does a lot of interventionalist bullshit, and I'm sure economic bullying is a key m.o.

Of course, the effects of even this extended embargo are still easily exaggerated by Castro/marxist apologists.

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Re: Go to Cuba, go to jail! [Re: hongomon]
    #2008995 -

hongomon writes:

Since the U.S. embargo covers all products that contain Cuban technology or raw materials, there's pressure on other countries who depend on trade with the US to essentially extend the embargo.

That hasn't been true for at least thirty years, if ever. Canada, for example (the US's largest trading partner) has been dealing openly with Cuba for decades.

Cuban has a hard time finding buyers for its sugar, for example.

That makes it no different from any other sugarcane-producing country, the Dominican Republic included. Sugarcane simply cannot compete with sugarbeet, even in countries with astonishingly low labor costs. There is no cane-producing country of which I am aware whose cane growers are not subsidized by their government.

There is no "extended" embargo of Cuba, I'm afraid.

pinky


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Re: Go to Cuba, go to jail! [Re: Phred]
    #2010185 -

That hasn't been true for at least thirty years, if ever. Canada, for example (the US's largest trading partner) has been dealing openly with Cuba for decades.

Have they used Cuban raw materials in products to be exported to the US? Here is what the Treasury Dept. says:

?Goods or services of Cuban origin may not be imported into the United States either directly or through third countries, such as Canada or Mexico.?

Either this isn't being interpreted to include raw materials, or it's not being enforced.

This I also see as a way to force other countries' businesses into sharing the embargo:

?Unless otherwise authorized, no vessel carrying goods or passengers to or from Cuba or carrying goods in which Cuba or a Cuban national has any interest may enter a U.S. port. The prohibition also applies to vessels which enter only to take on fuel and supplies (bunker), whether from U.S. fuel providers within the port limits or at offshore points, as well as vessels discharging or loading merchandise offshore, by lighter or otherwise. In addition,
vessels which enter a port or place in Cuba to engage in the trade of goods or services are prohibited from loading or unloading any freight at any place in the U.S. for 180 days.?

This is all in your backyard, so I'm sure you have a better understanding of how things are actually playing out. Are you saying there's no pressure on Canada or Mexico, etc, to avoid Cuban raw materials or resources (I confess I'm not exactly sure what that that second one is) for US-bound products?

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Re: Go to Cuba, go to jail! [Re: hongomon]
    #2010234 -

Have they used Cuban raw materials in products to be exported to the US?

Like what? Basically the only raw materials (other than dissidents) that Cuba exports are sugar and tobacco, and even the tobacco goes out as finished goods -- i.e. cigars.

Are you saying there's no pressure on Canada or Mexico, etc, to avoid Cuban raw materials or resources (I confess I'm not exactly sure what that that second one is) for US-bound products?

To the best of my knowledge, neither Canada nor Mexico nor any other country imports raw materials from Cuba which are used to make goods for re-export -- either to the US or anywhere else.

The reason Cuba is so poor is not because they are forbidden to sell the little they produce in the US -- it's that they produce almost nothing to sell. They have no manufacturing base whatsoever. Cane sugar is a glut on the market, as I explained already. Bananas and coconuts are pretty abundant in this neck of the woods, too. They can sell all the cigars they produce, and that's about it -- but they don't need the US market in order to sell out their entire production of cigars.

I may get around to visiting Cuba one day. A good friend of mine spends a fair bit of time there, and he has invited me to join him several times. All I've seen of it is from the times I overfly it or stop in Holguin for refueling (never leaving the cabin), but I can tell you it is pretty eery looking out the window of a jetliner as you fly over Cuba. No moving vehicles to speak of -- I mean almost NONE for hundreds of miles of roads -- and the Holguin airport is virtually deserted.

I've talked to quite a few tourists who have been there, too, and they tell me pretty much the same thing my friend does -- the place is fucked. The good thing is, Castro can't live forever.

pinky


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Re: Go to Cuba, go to jail! [Re: Phred]
    #2010248 -

I do feel bad for the people there, but this sounds like my kind of place:

No moving vehicles to speak of -- I mean almost NONE for hundreds of miles of roads -- and the Holguin airport is virtually deserted

Maybe I should look into it...

Edited by hongomon (10/15/03 01:55 AM)

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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