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Offlinejivangilad
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Trichocereus ID
    #18851672 - 09/16/13 10:28 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Is this Pachanoi, or a mix?


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OfflineMrMagicMushroom
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Re: Trichocereus ID [Re: jivangilad]
    #18851678 - 09/16/13 10:29 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Looks like it to me:thumbup:


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Offlinejivangilad
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Re: Trichocereus ID [Re: MrMagicMushroom]
    #18851988 - 09/16/13 11:55 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

The following one I dont think is pure Pachanoi
Could anyone explain the difference?


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Re: Trichocereus ID [Re: jivangilad]
    #18852208 - 09/17/13 01:44 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

They look all like pacanoi to me (except on the second pic, the spike one).
If they are hybrid, you cant know for sure what it is..


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Offlineintelligentlife
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Re: Trichocereus ID [Re: gopener]
    #18852274 - 09/17/13 02:37 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Looks pachanoi to me. Afaik trichocereus pachanoi definition are spineless cactus and ID of that is not hard. Sometimes t. pachanoi have bigger spines than "usually" ..sometimes only one per aerole.

Very nice and blue coloration on skin! Lovely!:cookiemonster:

About difference, every cactus has come at first place from seed. There are no identical specimens. I have seen hybrid pachanoi x peruviana and it was spineless, still without further knowledge about the origin of seed where this cactus has been come, let's keep it as san pedro aka. t. pachanoi. m'kay?

..I don't never rule hybrids out.. I have seen pachanoi look-a-like hybrids etc, but this is quite obvious case. Different coloration or spine formation pachanoi are just came from different seed... Only clones from same cactus are identical assuming they are grown in same conditions.

Environmental factors(light, soil, nutrients, etc) can change the appearance even cacti what are all same clones from same mother plant...:yesnod:

Same species cacti with minor differences means their origin are from different seed even from same plant.

Unless you don't know source of the seed where these plants has come, it's hard to say more. I would keep it as t. pachanoi even I have seen spineless known hybrids from nurseries who has cross-breed the species.

If it's not pure pachanoi, atleast most likely mother or father of the seed where this cactus has come are pachanoi and that's it. If you don't know more about source of cacti, keep it as pachanoi. No one except the guy who has produce the seeds for this one know what it can be.. or do that guy even know it... If seeds are from region or nursery where is lots of different trichocereus species and ofc animals pollinating the plants, then it's not possible to know is is pure pachanoi or not...

Don't take stress out of it.. Give your cactus name "san pedro" and get peace to your mind. I have similar spineless very blue tone san pedro..

At the moment have have san pedro cutting on my table, it's very blue, not like san pedro from south america, still it's san pedro to me.. I have just stop care about thinking so deep the origin of every trichocereus I have. They are different and that's it. They are from different seed.


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Edited by intelligentlife (09/17/13 02:53 AM)


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Offlinejivangilad
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Re: Trichocereus ID [Re: intelligentlife]
    #18852342 - 09/17/13 04:08 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks.
Interesting.
I was always sure they are hybrid.
They are grown from cuttings.

They grow remarkably quickly, and are very resistant to the conditions here of water, Temp. etc.
They are from a few different clones, but I suspect all of the clones, have eventually the same source, and that it is a clone that has become most popular in Israel (origin used for grafting).
The reason is obvious - being a very quick grower.

I was once given a dose of this, and the guy who gave me, said it was  a meter long .
If this is true, they are pretty weak.
I personally use 30 cm, with Syrian rue seeds.


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Offlineintelligentlife
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Re: Trichocereus ID [Re: jivangilad]
    #18852524 - 09/17/13 06:47 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I didn't say they were hybrids, I said they similar to t. pachanoi(sanpedro) However, cause origin is unknown I would say it is trichocereus pachanoi. If you suspect is not, what makes you suspicious about it or think it's hybrid?

Possibility of hybrids along trichos are big but not all plants are hybrids and not all plants can be ID.. But as I said, spineless columnar cactus, branching at base, bluish coloration on skin = description from one cactus site about species t. pachanoi. Just name your cactus plants all to san pedro cactus. It's actually quite large area of species of cactus if going back to history and look where name comes.. I don't see hybrid there, I have said I have seen hybrid pachanoi x peruviana what has not spines and looks like san pedro. Possible to be hybrid? -> Yes..
Really worth of thinking about is it hybrid? -> No

About dose, there should not to be talk about it.. I don't recommend to use syrian rue seeds with cacti, if there happens to be way more potent trichocereus than yours and you take these with mescaline, it can be fatal.

However, if the dose is one meter, it is pretty weak one...

I have san pedro from south america. I would not even dare to use syrian rue seeds with it. Also cactus is not so fat than usually trichocereus are. That san pedro dose of 30cm are effective to feel the euphoria and OEV even after 10hours of consuming.

I would not want to talk here about dosages of san pedro cause these things are actually belongs to drug forum or psychedelic experience forum. EG forum we can talk plants and in small way I have understand about consuming them but overall this is about taking care the plants and garden of yours.

Still, as now when you put this to topic, I want to really say to you that: DO NOT EVER TAKE SYRIAN RUE SEEDS WITH ANY OTHER CACTI YOU DON'T HAVE EVER CONSUMED!

If san pedro dose is considered as "normal dose" is 12inch(30cm) if you take that with small amount of syrian rue, you have weak clone but beautiful one indeed.

San pedro I have, 30cm at thickness of 3-4cm are dose giving full effects of mescaline. Very mild dose but noticeable are only 20cm of cacti. It is very potent. So in fact I want to warning you about using syrian rue seeds with cacti that IF you accidentally take it with potent cacti, it can be fatal. Syrian rue should not be used with phenethylamines including mescaline, even it gives a boost but before doing this you have to really know the potency of cactus and amount of syrian rue.

I would not recommend this to anyone who is reading this and want to get a boost for trip cause mescaline amounts vary from dry material from 0.1-2% (in "best case" it can be even +3% in trichocereus)

Afaik I know different clones of san pedro, I know some of them are weak, don't know dosage but if commonly 12inch(30cm) 3-5cm branch doesn't give any effects I consider it as a weak one. If there is some effects and feel you are starting to go trip and OEV and CEV are clear, then it's quite okay. If that amount tho gives strong 12hour lasting trip, then it's strong one.

Also what I have read about t. bridgesii.. There are somekind of MAO-inhibitor compounds in the cactus, the possibility that taking syrian rue seeds with t. bridgesii what also contains probably less amount of mescaline but similar effecting alkaloids what syrian rue have can be really dangerous.. Taking mescaline and syrian rue seeds are in my mind a serious if you don't know how potent cactus clone is are how much seeds of syrian rue you take.

As far as you have done this without any accident or fatality, it doesn't mean someone can took syrian rue seeds with actually real potent one san pedro and overdose it. If you do so, then do but when you consume another clone than that what you have experience, just be careful or leave syrian rue seeds away and consume only cactus beverage. Ofc it's matter how much syrian rue seeds you take and how much cactus(with known potency) it can be okay.

But it's no joke(seriously) if someone else now (after reading what you have done) are willing to try and boost the mescaline with syrian rue seeds cause you say you do so with weak clone of san pedro. This kind of combination can be really dangerous if someone else took strong clone and boost it with syrian rue seeds. Also I want to say you that if you get new clone, potent unknown, do now assume it's weak and do first beverage with syrian rue seeds combined.

Even talking syrian rue seeds combined to mescaline is dangerous cause these amount should really be known before ingesting. I know bad stories cause by syrian rue seeds and mescaline analogue compounds as well as compounds 2C-x, MDMA etc.. and many other phenethylamine compounds are dangerous with syrian rue seeds if not really know what you ingest or do. As far as chemistry goes, mescaline and cactus phenethylamines ain't so different from these chemicals or research chemicals known some people use for have a good time or take a trip. To this group belongs all kind of chemicals from mescaline to methamphetamine and research chemicals between these.

For booting up tryptamines, syrian rue seeds are not so dangerous than phenethylamines could be with these seeds.

The risk of overdosing are there if you mix syrian rue seeds to cactus beverage.

HOWEVER, since you know your doses and have consumed this clone you said with syrian rue and know the syrian rue dose how much you need to get effects from cactus with the seeds it's okay. I will warn you still that before you use syrian rue seeds with cactus.. WHEN or IF you got new san pedro clone to your hands and don't know the potency of it, do not consume syrian rue seeds with cactus before you know how strong cactus is.

I have never even think to boost cacti with syrian rue seeds cause strongest cactus I have ingested was very potent and surprises me totally and even think to combine syrian rue seeds to that cactus, I cannot say more than it would probably be serious overdose.

Since there is not allowed to talk accurate doses of further ingesting cactus, I stop there. I just wanted to write this and all who read this that mescaline cactus and syrian rue is not the best way to go safer if someone value own life even a littlebit. I would probably trying to hunt more potent trichocereus so there is no need to combine syrian rue to boost up mescaline.

Still it has been on my mind to try small amount of those seeds with small section of cactus but cause I have seen people overdosing phenethylamines cause of syrian rue seeds, I have become very suspicious against syrian rue seeds combined to mescaline and all pheneththylamines in the cactus.

Only syrian rue seeds by on it's own gives effects from your own brain chemistry but it's not so strong but possible to feel. Simply way (eaay to read style way) to say the actions of syrian rue seed and all MAO-inhibitors and why they boost up tryptamines and phenethylamines is that because MAO-inhibitor will "slow down or stop" the metabolism going further in your brain therefor even small amount for example mescaline "builds up" to your brain without "breaking" to metabolite causes the effects of boost. Without this you need more chemical(no matter what) to get the feeling because metabolism goes faster and break down the chemicals in your brain via metabolism so they don't "build up" so much and you need more chemicals to get effects because your brain chemistry will break down everything there is...

Sorry if someone understand wrong(or not understand at all) cause english isn't my native language but my point is the fact that slowing down(or stop) the metabolism in the brain and bloodstream, there are not happening the natural metabolism what will break the compounds fast to metabolite compounds what are not active anymore.

You can think it like a freeway with lots of traffic and cars just going and going. Think MAO-inhibitor as a road block (or stop few lanes on the freeway) so there happens eventually that in same area where used to be few cars going their own speed, after road block or reducing the lines on freeway in same area are lots of cars going slow and there are lots of cars in same area longer time and they usually would be.

I don't know if that's good reference or not but if you get my point of using MAO-inhibitors with mescaline cactus, take a lesson and use syrian rue only with cactus you have used before. Also getting dose up is harder with syrian rue and stronger the cactus are more gamble the mescaline trips will going to be.

IMO If you don't have potent cacti enough to use it on it's own, try find one. Even syrian rue seeds and mescaline cacti are natural products but combination of these are gamble... One point is that if some people who have medication daily, get's an idea of boosting cactus with syrian rue, or think it's worth of saving cactus by taking smaller sections and add syrian rue, there is no good study what happens to people with daily medication prescribed by doctor.

At this point of my life it's long time from last time I have took mescaline beverage, I just don't think I even need to take it anymore, after my last long journey of 18-20 hour mescaline trip I have not abused even alcohol or any drugs.. It was very pleasant trip and teach me lots what life is and where I can get pleasure and peace. I took only 45cm long and 5cm fat san pedro section so it's far way stronger than yours, that's why I was shock about you said you even use syrian rue with mescaline.

After my long experience, respect against mescaline cactus, it has inside the crystallization if purpose of life inside and it has bring me to point that I want to collect strong(and unknown potency) specimens of mescaline cacti but never consuming them. I don't even think nor feel necessary to cut my plants and make beverage from them cause it's illegal in my country but most of all, I just don't feel I need the perfect medicine of the mind. I have used beverage in another country cause legal issues.. Not in country I live cause it's against the law to consume them. Collection of cacti no matter are they mescaline or not isn't illegal at all. Abusing plants is illegal...

And last words I want to say to you that try to keep syrian rue out of mescaline cactus for the sake of your life. You never know if there happens to be potent clone and if your "habit" is to boost psychedelics with syrian rue seeds are regular, there are possible accident happening at some point with more likely if you "test out" new clone with these doses. I have heard people use many kind of combinations to get experience with syrian rue, but as far as I know the effects of it and metabolism of mammals and humans, also effects of phenethylamines, I would not do that even it sounds interesting to use only small section of strong cacti and get trip out of it with syrian rue, but I value my life so much that if I have to choose, I would take as much cacti I need to get experience and leave syrian rue seeds only for boost up tryptamines cause there are not much of danger present.

That's it.. This went totally offtopic from original topic about ID the cactus but since you bring out the point that you consume cacti with syrian rue, I feel necessary to say few words about them. Even there are lots of good experiences with boosting cacti with syrian rue seeds, it doesn't mean it's good and safe way to do mescaline. I do not recommend to anyone even think boost up cactus with syrian rue even there are people saying they get fine experience from it.

Another can tolerate this combination, than another can get serious side effects from it and need of medical care. This is just written for caution for everyone who read this and wanted to say this thread starter that actually even mentioning consuming the syrian rue and mescaline cactus in EG forum isn't anything to do with cultivating plants nor ID of them..

Since I have no experience at all from syrian rue seeds, only seen friends use it with boost mushrooms and making ayahuasca, I cannot tell no more, only thing I know there is thin line between with safe but strong trip dose and dangerous dose when using syrian rue seeds with cacti

..and for the extra caution can be that, there is mescaline plants like peyote(contains alkaloids what trichocereus doesn't have) and some trichocereus species known to be contains different alkaloids what another trichocereus doesn't contain so it's not as near as safe to do combination with syrian rue seeds and cactus no matter is it trichocereus or peyote, especially I would be aware of peyote boosting cause it contains lots of possible dangerous alkaloids what syrian rue seeds can boost. As a reminder, syrian rue seeds will effect also to the alkaloids what are not actually "active" ...If you people still want to use cacti and syrian rue seeds, make sure you are know what happens in your brain and bloodstream and what is human metabolism.. These alkaloids will effect also to your organisms inside us as well as our mind. Syrian rue and cacti combination can be unpredictable to know... It has not been studied and cause mescaline cactus plants contains lots of phenethylamines, who knows what is active and what's not, syrian rue seeds basically "boost" all alkaloids in the cactus what are "inactive" in the case of they don't cause any psychedelic effects but their effects to heart rate, bloodstream, breath etc is not known, also their toxicity are not studied much, syrian rue seeds basically boost whole mixture of phenethylamines cacti contains so it's kind of a gambling.. especially when dosing up, you don't know what alkaloid in the cactus can start effect and where and what is the amount it turns to toxic..

There are no toxic compounds, only toxic dosages. With syrian rue seeds it's impossible to know more than it gives psychedelic boost.. but what really happens in our brain when mixtures like these are used is not studied enough. Cacti is more than just mescaline, there are lots of different chemicals as a mixture and adding syrian rue to this chemical mixture is not making any sense to me.

And my text is now went FAAAR AWAY from identify the cactus.. but cacti+syrian rue seeds, keep 'em separated for the sake of your self. Or if you continue to boost cacti with syrian rue, don't use it with new clones and species of cacti..
There can be nasty surprise just waiting to happen. For example there has been found +3-4% alkaloid content from trichocereus cactus as far as I can trust information released some time ago where has bee studied the potency of trichocereus specimens, that study said these specimens were from south america.

Also if you want to talk more about dosages and possible combinations go talk with people on where common topics are drugs and doses of them...

Sorry about offtopic talk, lots of my text doesn't belong to EG forum but I feel I need to say something cause I don't see anything near safe using syrian rue seeds with mescaline cactus, even with boosting the weak clones... Syrian rue seeds with phenethylamines can always lead to possible health problems when accidentally used too much or cacti are stronger than people are used to be :sad:

Please, don't take habit from boosting cacti with syrian rue seeds.. Even if you don't have got any side effects or anything.. Long term use are unknown and not studied. If you take cactus for experience, just take it as it is without syrian rue seeds.. Try to find stronger san pedro specimen to use for trip.. :eskimokiss:


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Edited by intelligentlife (09/17/13 06:55 AM)


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Re: Trichocereus ID [Re: jivangilad]
    #18852833 - 09/17/13 09:26 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Looks pretty classic pachanoi to me. What makes you think they are hybrids?


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Invisiblegopener
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Re: Trichocereus ID [Re: intelligentlife]
    #18852857 - 09/17/13 09:38 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Very nice information IntelligentLife:thumbup:, though i didnt understand one thing,

what do you mean with overdose?As far as i know there is no overdose with psychedelics,
only psychotic episodes , bad that is more to the persons mental state.

Please correct me if i am wrong.


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Offlineintelligentlife
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Re: Trichocereus ID [Re: gopener]
    #18853231 - 09/17/13 11:41 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

gopener said:
Very nice information IntelligentLife:thumbup:, though i didnt understand one thing,

what do you mean with overdose?As far as i know there is no overdose with psychedelics,
only psychotic episodes , bad that is more to the persons mental state.

Please correct me if i am wrong.




I meant syrian rue seeds combined with cacti can be easily overdosed accidentally and can lead to major health problems as well as psychotic episodes but I don't meant to talk actually the psychedelic effects overdose.. I meant there is real danger of combination with these two substances without knowledge of proper dosages.. These together can easily be "too much" in the way that person who has taken too much of both at same time can need medical attention..

Cacti beverage alone isn't so dangerous and hard do overdose.

Mescaline is phenethylamine, it's not good to use MAO-inhibitors with these compounds and it's dangerous..

syrian rue seeds are used to get DMT orally active. It boost actually everything but enough of that. There is no solid reason to risk own health by consuming syrian rue seeds with cactus to get boost of from the mescaline. It is seriously dangerous and risk of taking too much is there.

It can be done if known own limits but I would never boost up phenethylamines like mescaline with MAO-inhibitors like this thread started has written to boost up mescaline cause cactus is very weak in potency.

Without knowledge of syrian rue seeds and potency of san pedro, it can lead to serious health problems when consumed too much. Tryptamines instead is far more safer way to consume with syrian rue.. It's simply just boost the psychedelic compounds. With DMT it's okay to ingest syrian rue cause DMT isn't active orally without this plant seeds. Mescaline and all other cacti alkaloids are active without syrian rue and can be consumed without it to get effects to I don't see any point to risk own health by combination of phenethylamines and MAO-inhibitors.

This information has nothing to do with cultivation, I just wanted to warn people who may read this that syrian rue combined with cacti can lead serious health problems cause mescaline is first of all phenethylamine and second of all there is not known what exact compounds cacti have inside and what amounts of these another alkaloids in the cacti can cause problems with syrian rue and later what problems it can lead with health.

In nutshell, syrian rue seeds makes commonly known psychedelics 3-5x "stronger" than they are but the effect how the boost happens I would not even do it with phenethylamines. So small amount with cacti combined with syrian rue gives effects similar to big amount of cacti, but with that combination there is risks of overdose so I suggest to keep cacti beverage as "cacti only"-beverage without taking anything extra with it to boost it especially MAO-inhibitors and cacti isn't the safe way to get experience.

I suggest to avoid syrian rue seeds with cacti and all phenethylamines cause phenethylamines like compounds in cacti can really go very nasty with syrian rue seeds(MAO-inhibitors)

Especially without knowledge of these two substances, I suggest not to take any syrian rue seeds with cacti in case of want to get stronger experience. BUT: If you know what you are doing and know the risks what this combination can cause, then why not to take small amount of cacti and boost it with syrian rue seeds.

Understand what I mean? Syrian rue seeds with cacti can cause major health problems and commonly it's not suggested way to ingest mescaline cacti. There is dozens of phenethylamines in cacti what is one reason I would not do it..

MAO-inhibitors are "old fashion" antidepressants, you need to understand how these compounds work to understand what kind of danger it can cause with mescaline cacti if not knowing accurate dosages. Cacti as alone without any substance is quite safe, unless too big dose causes mental problems. You should look further information from internet, people has done phenethylamines with syrian rue seeds.. it's just more matter of dosage and usually surian rue has been taken with mescaline in the way that mescaline has first extracted from cacti to know the dosage to prevent overdoses with this combination. You can easily google more information about this substance what has used to boost psychedelics. With san pedro like there has been said it has been consumed is not always safe especially if dosages are hard to measure.

I am just worried about another people, someone can took too much cacti with syrian rue and it can turn nasty boosting dozens of phenethylamines inside cacti with syrian rue seeds. However, this talk should be talk in the drugs forum instead of EG. Sorry by taking this to topic but I am worried when mentioned these two compounds without correct dosage information..:shrug:


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Edited by intelligentlife (09/17/13 11:43 AM)


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Invisiblemodern.shaman
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Re: Trichocereus ID [Re: intelligentlife]
    #18853376 - 09/17/13 12:30 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Syrian rue seeds selectively bind with MAO-A so this wouldn't cause much of an amplifying effect for the mescaline as would Banisteriopsis caapi. Mescaline is a phenetylamine so would be better amplified with caapi which is a MAO-A and MAO-B.

I do agree that mixing an MAO-I with a cactus of unknown potency is asking for trouble however I don't think there is much risk in mixing the two. That being said you do need to be careful and know your body and dose. I personally have done this and had limited success due to using Syrian seeds rather than caapi. USE REVERSIBLE MAOI's


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Edited by modern.shaman (09/17/13 12:35 PM)


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Offlinejivangilad
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Re: Trichocereus ID [Re: modern.shaman]
    #18853644 - 09/17/13 01:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I use the Syrian rue, because I need less cactus, and I dont want to finish all the cactus I have, but also because it gives a different dimension to the experience. A more mistyc and healing experience.
I wasnt aware the it is dangerous.
Actually, thinking about it, I am not sure now that all the cacti that I have are from the same clone, and I am not sure which is which, although they all look the same to me.
So there is a danger of overdose, and causing psychotic effects, and also  health problems.
This is allarming to me.
Could you only say, what are the health risks?


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Re: Trichocereus ID [Re: modern.shaman]
    #18853731 - 09/17/13 02:18 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I have read health problems from headaches to hearth problems what has passed after experience, people have to understand that cacti and as well as syrian rue contains several alkaloids and no one know what alkaloid are reaching toxic levels and what will not when using syrian rue seeds. More phenethylamine health problems with syrian rue I have read and actually seen when they has combined with research chemicals (analogues of mescaline) but also syrian rue + cacti can be dangerous.. if doses are not prepared good and known how much alkaloids there are in the plants. Always use SCALE It doesn't harm to use scale to know plant material amount but scale doesn't tell what kind(and how much) of alkaloids as cocktail there is.. More I am worried about cacti alkaloids like hordenine, tyramine etc.. can they reach toxic levels with syrian rue seeds? ..who knows? who have studied?

Safer way is to use these as extracted to get rid of alkaloids what we actually don't even think about when ingesting these plants. There is list below.

I meant the syria rue seeds can cause possible too a toxic effects cause of cactus doesn't have only mescaline in them. My concern is hordenine and everything else.

Also these seeds contains Harmane, Harmine, Harmalol, Harmaline, Tetrahydroharmine, Vasicine and Vasicinone. I know the fact that actually MAO-A should not effect at all to mescaline, so some of these compounds in the seeds effects too similar way.

Shulgin has tested actually "this" but with pure mescaline and harmaline. Problem using the cacti and seeds are that there is huge spectrum of compounds we don't even know yet what all effects and where and what is the result of all compounds from seeds plus compounds from trichocereus.. Also different trichocereus have different ratio of phenethylamines.

The fact that "why" MAO-A effects to mescaline is unknown and are actually a big topic along people and with these who use these seeds as boosting for example cacti. More I have heard synthetic compounds and bad reactions with syrian rue seeds than actual cacti and syrian rue seeds.

However, (oh this topic has gone far away cause of small sentence by the topic starter :tongue2: )
If consuming with peyote, t. bridgesii(known to contain different alkaloids than t. pachanoi) and so on, we cannot know what happens in our body..

Simple way we just know it inhibits our enzymes not to break down the molecules, but in the cacti ca be molecules need to break down fast cause of toxicity.. and syrian rue seeds boost as well as other compounds in cacti than it boosts mescaline.

Caution is needed even there is good experiences with san pedro and syrian rue seeds.. But dosing the big spectrum of alkaloids effecting each others by boosting them or changing their way to how they work in our system are still guite big gamble.

Only I have read good experiences are extracts from syrian rue seeds and cacti to get only mescaline separated from another alkaloids.

I think you understand my worry about this cause what comes to syrian rue seeds, I have seen bad experiences on my own eyes cause few of my friends has not taken seriously synthetic phenethylamines and syrian rue seeds.

So my honest fear of wrong use of these plants is real.

Let me put out my concern by way of list of chemicals, would you ingest these without knowing proper dose or want to know proper dose before ingestion?

San pedro contains phenethylamines:
- mescaline (3,4,5-trimethoxyphenethylamine)
- 3,4-dimethoxyphenethylamine
- 4-hydroxy-3-methoxyphenethylamine
- 3-hydroxy-4,5-dimethoxyphenethylamine
- 4-hydroxy-3,5-dimethoxyphenethylamine
- anhalonidine
- anhalinine
- hordenine
- tyramine
- 3-methoxytyramine
- and probably few more phenethylamines (and lots of more if cacti is peyote)

Syrian rue seeds contains alkaloids below:
- Harmane
- Harmine
- Harmalol
- Harmaline
- Tetrahydroharmine
- Vasicine (this is not "harmala" alkaloid")
- Vasicinone (thi is not "harmala alkaloid")

Only few of them are MAOI-A, some of syrian rue alkaloids have different effects. Still there is not quite known why this MAO-inhibitor what should effect only for tryptamines in fact boost as well as phenethylamines or is it in case some of these alkaloids what I have listed what effects too boosting the mescaline? ..this is not studied more further than ingested and said it increases potency. Mescaline toxicity with MAOI-A would not be such a thing to worry but anything else phenethylamines in the trichcoereus species can get toxic level in our system.

Also, I have read that some trichocereus variants can indeed contains MAOI-B/A effecting phenethylamines what gives it's own boost to mescaline by on it's own and these phenethylamines works as MAOI-A or MAOI-B probably. Therefor some cacti has been reported to contain small amount of mescaline but users reports are opposite, they say cacti is potent. And the another way high mescaline amount in cacti has been reported but people consume plants has been said they are not so strong.. I think trichocereus bridgesii is one of these what has been reported to have small amount of mescaline but still effects of the cacti are very strong. There is actually possible somekind of MAOI-A/B in the cacti already but are they trace amounts, or are there anything at all of these compounds it mystery.. I have my self tested few different clones of san pedro, they have something different, don't know what but the chemical spectrum of the plants could tell more but I have no lab to test anything and cause mescaline extraction is illegal, even trying to study this species of cacti there is so big problem that I just don't care even I want to even donate few trichocereus to laboratorys and know the spectrum of the cacti alkaloids.. Then it would be fun to compare the alkaloid spectrum in cacti to effects of it.
Does high amount of mescaline says it's potent when consuming or are there as some studies has shown some phenethylamines already boost up the mescaline like I have read from t. bridgesii. Small amount of mescaline but stronger effects than san pedro with high amount of mescaline.

Still only few negative reports is out there I have read people feel sick cause of taking too much of syrian rue seeds with cacti, more positive effects I have read when syrian rue seed dose is lower and cacti dose is higher. Since I have not first hand experience ingesting syrian rue seeds with cacti even I have ingested only syrian rue seeds, I would still think twice before I do combination with possible two dozens of alkaloids where only handful are known how they effect to human metabolism. Syrian rue seeds can possible effect with mescaline cause of it boost serotonin and few other tryptamines what are naturally in our system and mescaline is known to be releasing serotonin and dopamine etc.. The possible boosting effect to mescaline is still half unknown and reports of boost are only known that it does it but in theory it should not do this cause it's not MAOI-B, or are there MAOI-A and MAOI-B effecting alkaloid somewhere in syrian rue seeds?

Okay without further knowledge and even there is positive experiences with these two, my advice is still to take less syrian rue and more cacti, not opposite way.. based on what I have read the good and bad experiments from people.

And cause cacti contains many of phenethylamines what toxicity amounts are not known it's pure gamble to try maximum dosages with this combination since these seeds will effect to our enzymes what breaks down the alkaloids, and maybe some alkaloids in cacti are good to break down fast cause of possible toxicity can be there. Also if you add peyote there, the amounts of alkaloid are higher and it's actually big combination of alkaloid mixture..

There are maybe confusion between a. shulgin experiences and wrong way think that these plants contains only one compound per plant can confuse so much that no wonder there are bad experiences with syrian rue and cacti what is totally different thing than alexander shulgin has done.

I want to everyone just to be safe and know what they are doing. If you are suspicious about your knowledge and don't know do you want to boost cacti with syrian rue seeds, be cautious in case of possible bad effects or toxicity levels. Toxic levels are in most cases unknown and lots of good experiments are reported to be relatively small amount of syrian rue seeds with cacti. And always use scale to be sure how much you are going to ingest... And think twice even there are good experiences cause some people has experienced this suspicious combination without extraction of alkaloids.

However, the syrian rue seeds probably works the way that it doesn't actually boost mescaline but it will prevent our own tryptamines to metabolize and therefor makes effects more intensive. Syrian rue seeds are probably still safe source of MAOI to use with cacti but risk is always there. Theory of that syrian rue effects to chemicals inside our brain, mescaline will release serotonin, dopamine etc and MAOI-A possible boost these instead of mescaline if there is not MAOI-B in effects in some alkaloid in the syrian rue seeds. That is mystery but not so big mystery cause almost all psychedelics will cause our brain get "more stuff" out of there and syrian rue causes enzymes to stop metabolizing them further and therefor possible boost comes cause lots molecules in our brain are tryptamines.. Also DMT can be found in human brain and it's possible one of the many molecules effecting our way to see dreams... Possible, I am not sure but kinda sure that dreams comes from our brain own tryptamines like dimethyltryptamine aka DMT what is most common tryptamine found from many mammals and plants.

I found this piece of information about hordenine what probably lots of cacti species contains:
Hordenine was found to be a selective substrate for MAO-B, from rat liver, with Km = 479 μM, and Vmax = 128 nM/mg protein/h. It was not de-aminated by MAO-A from rat intestinal epithelium.
..so could hordenine amount in cacti effect the actual mescaline and feeling of that how "strong" cacti is? Can there by circle that syrian rye boost hordenine and hordenine boost mescaline and few another phenethylamines in cacti and therefor makes every cacti to it's own different style of effects. I have seen some cacti gives very strong MDMA like euphoria and another cacti consumed gives less euphoria but more psychedelia.

Can hordenine it self effects the trace amounts of these phenethylamines in the cacti and effect the actual experiece, what else there can be in cacti? In theory: IF I take piece of Trichocereus known to be contains hordenine but not mescaline at all, can for example trichocereus schickendantzii species be used to boost up mescaline cause it has been reported to contain hordenine, also.. does hordenine effects as MAOI-B in human liver compared to rat? tricky questions cause afaik there has not been made humans tests in laboratories. What happens still if there is too much hordenine? Hordenine has been studied good from toxicology to pharma properties as well as it effects to hearth rate, blood pressure and vomiting, what happens if syrian rue seeds boost cacti with lots of hordenine with mescaline? It probably effect the body load and to our hearth so caution should be need when use plant material without extraction of alkaloids.

What else phenethylamines trichocereus group of cacti contains? Why mescaline amounts reported doesn't match to experience of people say? ...Only think I know that people who have extracted mescaline out of the another alkaloids, they have said the "magic" has gone or it's not as potent as it could be when taken same amount of cacti. Magical plant indeed!:bow2:

-moar offtopic about tryptamines:
Also facinating things about cacti, I have read that some ariocarpus species contains tryptamines and they has been used as psychedelic small native group.. still I have no further information about that but it makes me think can cacti contain also tryptamines too yet not to find?


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Edited by intelligentlife (09/17/13 03:15 PM)


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Invisiblegopener
lil_dude
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Registered: 06/16/13
Posts: 512
Re: Trichocereus ID [Re: intelligentlife]
    #18854155 - 09/17/13 03:48 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks for clear this up for me.

If you ask me you did great writing this up!:super:


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