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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa
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Nevver thought id do this
    #4658081 - 09/14/05 03:35 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

I never thought about ingesting my pedro my sweet pedro. But alas my dogs broke it. I have the stump and two cuttings from it so i will have 3 plus new plants. So in a way its a gift but i never wanted to mutulate her. But you see i just so happen to have a section about a foot long and 4 inches in diameter. I know about how to do it i just wanna know if i should do it. I mean i can make another five plants atleast from the section. Or i can partake in it.

I really just wanna know if its like L or shrooms and if its different how so? I wanna know what im in for lets say if its a potenent clone.


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: Nevver thought id do this [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #4658319 - 09/14/05 04:54 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Well, I won't claim to have personal experience (although within a week or two I will  :laugh: ), but I have done some heavy research online... spanning a year or two.

depending on your own body-chemistry as well as body-mass, you should experience results from a 12x4 cutting, properly prepared. To my knowledge the only way to judge a plant's potency, however, is to ingest the yield and see where it takes you. As a rule of thumb, however, the more stress was applied to the cactus prior to harvest, and the longer it had been under such stress, the more potent it will be in mescaline content. A cactus grown under very comfortable conditions favoring rapid growth is also a rather complacent cactus with lower amounts of mescaline, generally speaking. There may genetic disposition in potency as well, but to my knowledge this is questionable and has not been proven.

I can't describe the trip to you, as I'm waiting for a friend to prepare my first dose and send it to me, but I'm sure others could provide insight in that area.

Reportedly, the trip is less chaotic in ways than that of acid or shrooms, allowing more cogent and clear analysis of the information which is given you by the cactus trip.

But this could vary from person to person, as neurochemistry is bogglingly complex.

I'd suggest you give it a go, however. It is no less worth experiencing than psilocybes or LSD-25, especially when it is made so very convenient for you to experience it.


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I find your lack of faith disturbing


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Offlinefaslimy
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Re: Nevver thought id do this [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #4658358 - 09/14/05 05:20 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

I would say different clones would give slightly different effects. It is a huge journey that can last a day and night, the effects are completely all encompassing but I wouldn't dare get specific with them without having recently taken any.

Expect your thoughts to directly influence your senses, and senses becoming less separated. i feel it is closer to lysergic than psilo.


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Offlineesin
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Re: Nevver thought id do this [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #4658527 - 09/14/05 07:28 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I know about how to do it i just wanna know if i should do it. I mean i can make another five plants atleast from the section. Or i can partake in it.




Do it!
Plant the other sections.

Quote:

I really just wanna know if its like L or shrooms and if its different how so?




Quite different than both IME.
But i agree with faslimy that it is much closer to L than to shrooms.
We could sit here trying to explain the differences but we'd just be going nowhere fast.

Just eat the thing and feel it for yourself :wink:
I mean, as far as i understood you have at least 2 more cuttings to plant. And you can always buy/trade for more cuttings if that isn't enough.

I bet you'll connect more with your live one once it shows you its essence.


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Offlinestvip
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Re: Nevver thought id do this [Re: esin]
    #4658596 - 09/14/05 08:25 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

As a rule of thumb, however, the more stress was applied to the cactus prior to harvest, and the longer it had been under such stress, the more potent it will be in mescaline content




Proof? (and note mescaline isn't the only alkaloid in T. pachanoi, and there may also be nonalkaloidal psychoactive compounds present)


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: Nevver thought id do this [Re: stvip]
    #4658857 - 09/14/05 11:23 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

It is commonly beleived that mescaline is utilized as a form of defense when in stressfull situations. Admittedly, I have seen no scientific study which I can cite for you to provide good proof (and to be honest, the odds are slim that any respectable scientist will ever be allowed to conduct such a study). however, the hypothesis is viable and I have seen it recurringly in numerous sources. Hit up the Mescaline Vault at erowid and poke around, I'm a tad too tired to do the proper citation but you should have little trouble finding this info.

Also, I am well aware that the cactus contains numerous psychoactive chemicals. However, mescaline is the most understood of these, and is clearly classified as a psychoactive hallucinogenic. Therefore, most people seem interested in the mescaline itself. The other psychoactive substances are likely to produce not-insignificant effects on the user, but are far less understood.


--------------------

I find your lack of faith disturbing


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Offlinestvip
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Re: Nevver thought id do this [Re: Konnrade]
    #4659021 - 09/14/05 12:04 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Let me epitomize this thorny (spiny) issue: "common knowledge" on scientific matters in these forums isn't much beter than a dice roll, and Erowid too, while an extremely valuable source, archives articles with erroneous information (many of the articles there are simply postings from various forums). I disagree with "and to be honest, the odds are slim that any respectable scientist will ever be allowed to conduct such a study", many such studies are conducted. In fact, I hope my university will authorize a few for me. Some plants produce more alkaloids when streseed, some not, or produce less. Often times the alkaloid profile is altered unpredictably. In many cases.the evolutionary forces that led to alkaloids in plants are not at all well understood (are there any indication at all that Trichocereus species with no mescaline have lower fitness?), and this is particularily true in the case of psychoactive compounds.

Anyhow, end of lecture, to Sheik's question: I often feel quite uncomfortable when terminating the life of a perennial plant, but in this case, you're just contemplating eating a cutting. The plant itself, and its various clones continues to live. This would be perfectly fine with me, personally. You could get additional plant material by allowing the additional cutting to grow, but then, you could achieve the same by extra lights or more precise nutritional control; as long as the plant is healthy and growing, it's all the same to me.


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Offlineesin
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Re: Nevver thought id do this [Re: Konnrade]
    #4659098 - 09/14/05 12:24 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

However i've seen experienced people state that they consistently get better results with healthy, properly cared for cacti than with poorly watered/sunburnt/whatever specimens.

There are no scientific studies, you are right.
But i personally prefer to believe on those who actually do it than in random hypothesis (especially when we aren't even sure if the cactus produces mesc as a deterent to predators).

But even if mesc has that purpose, imagine the following situation.

You are starving and thirsty, haven't eaten for days. Your leftover energy only allows you to walk 50 yards. You can either choose to walk to the diner or to the local gunshop.

Would you go and buy a gun (read: alkaloids) to protect yourself from muggers (read: predators) or would you use the energy to go and get some food and water?

I'd personally choose the food and water, so i'd than have the energy to walk to the gunshop and protect myself.

If the poor cactus barely has energy to spread roots and look for water - or even to just keep itself alive until the rain season comes - do you really think it'll use its leftover energy to produce mescaline?

I couldn't ever know if a cactus will behave like this. Just throwing it in for the sake of discussion since it seems to me this hypothesis/analogy is as viable as the 'stress = alkaloids' hypothesis.
If what's bothering the plant is the drought why would it try to keep mice away, possibly risking not having enough energy to stay alive until the rain comes?


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Offlinestvip
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Re: Nevver thought id do this [Re: esin]
    #4659310 - 09/14/05 01:06 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Anthropomorphization and antecedent teleology are an anathema to comprehending the evolutionary process.


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: Nevver thought id do this [Re: esin]
    #4661473 - 09/14/05 08:03 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

well, I certainly won't claim to know this information to be either true or false. However it's persistence makes it worthy of consideration, at the very least so that someone at home who is familiar with the scientific method may do some research into the issue. When I commented about studies being allowed, I was merely expressing skepticism that the chemical mescaline itself would be studied in detail. While this is entirely possible, there's a lot of hoops to jump through to be allowed to work with Schedule I substances.

I have 3 T. pachanoi specimens at home, if someone would advise me on proper methodology I would be happy to do a long-term informal study of this behaviour. I could easily clone one of them (to rule out genetic variation in the case that the specimens are of different genetic source) into enough specimens to have a control group, a group in highly favorable conditions, and a group in more stressful conditions. By that time I would have capability to perform extractions of mescaline crystals in a home laboratory environment, which could be compared from one group to the other by weight per mass of cactus. This may not reflect directly on concentration of alkaloids produced, but concentrations of mescaline would be a good starting point for gaining greater knowledge.


--------------------

I find your lack of faith disturbing


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Offlineesin
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Re: Nevver thought id do this [Re: Konnrade]
    #4663778 - 09/15/05 07:00 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Stvip, may be so, but as i said, the analogy in my post isn't in any way meant as true info. Just a different hypothesis that can be as viable as the other one, since AFAIK the first is also based on nothing but human reason.

And so far the little amount of anecdotal reports i've seen (based on a/b extractions - which btw are falible) concluded the healthy ones are more potent.
If anyone has any reports that, comparing healthy to stressed cacti, came to the conclusion that the stressed ones are more potent, let us know.

Konnrade, such an experiment might very well come to shed a light on this issue. If you indeed do it be sure to let us know the results.


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InvisibleSweetJimmyBrown
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Re: Nevver thought id do this [Re: esin]
    #4668751 - 09/16/05 08:03 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Based on my experience, I disagree with the idea that tyranizing your cacti will raise levels of alkoloids and it seems that of late the enthogenic cacti community would also agree (supported by various other forums). I would like to add that mistreating your plants for personal gain is generally not a very cool thing to do, no matter which side of the spiritual fence you fall on.


--------------------
Ille dolet vere, qui sine teste dolet.
* * *
I'm as calm as a fruit stand in New york and maybe as strange.
* * *
Simple Grain Recipe


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: Nevver thought id do this [Re: Konnrade]
    #4671317 - 09/16/05 10:18 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

I think I will proceed with that experiment... I would rather enjoy having a scientific purpose to keep myself occupied with, and since I am trying to propagate anyhow this information benefits me, as does the cloning.

I didn't make it clear, however, what I meant by stressing them. I would not intend to blatantly abuse the cacti, I would feel a bit guilty about that... what I refer to is the difference between loving daily care and optimized conditions versus the common mild neglect of someone who buys a cactus and thinks that as long as they water it every month it'll be fine  :tongue:


--------------------

I find your lack of faith disturbing


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InvisibleSweetJimmyBrown
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Re: Nevver thought id do this [Re: Konnrade]
    #4672912 - 09/17/05 04:36 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Like the middle class approach to child rearing?

Triptophan has become available to me and the gentle nudge of opportunism has got me thinking of trying that ol' chestnut of injections to the outmost skin of the cacti to boost alkoloids. I'd not before considered this but perhaps I may...


--------------------
Ille dolet vere, qui sine teste dolet.
* * *
I'm as calm as a fruit stand in New york and maybe as strange.
* * *
Simple Grain Recipe


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Re: Nevver thought id do this [Re: SweetJimmyBrown]
    #4673136 - 09/17/05 07:39 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Tryptophan?

How the cactus is going to produce a phenethylamine with an indole precursor?

Maybe you are after Dopamine :laugh: Or Tyramine.

Why not forgeting injections and focusing on a DMSO application?


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InvisibleSweetJimmyBrown
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Re: Nevver thought id do this [Re: Psiloman]
    #4673268 - 09/17/05 09:58 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

I'm sorry. I was just reading some archive stuff on DMT! And yes, I did spell it wrong as well. Gotta get off of these night shifts.

Actually a follow-up question was going to be about a dilute solution applicae ala fertilizer. I do have reservations both ethical and practical about stabbing my quickly dwindling cactus farm.

Has DMSO been tried before? I guess I'll search around.

It's never really been in my nature to fool around with god's nature, the cactus has never really let me down as far as content is concerned but in anticipating a full-on extraction I suppose this would be insurance to make the experiment worthwhile.

^Also, in line with the above mistake concerning the indole precursor, someone this morning told me that one of the Epithelanthas contains 5-MeO-DMT? Is this true? It came from a not-so-trustworthy burnout type of person so I'm a little in doubt, however I have a few wee Epis going right now so my interest is acutely piqued.


--------------------
Ille dolet vere, qui sine teste dolet.
* * *
I'm as calm as a fruit stand in New york and maybe as strange.
* * *
Simple Grain Recipe


Edited by SweetJimmyBrown (09/17/05 10:10 AM)


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OfflineOpenminded
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Re: Nevver thought id do this [Re: SweetJimmyBrown]
    #4673339 - 09/17/05 10:39 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

I got some tyrosine pills a while ago with the intention of doing a doping experiment, but never got round to it. Perhaps I will one day, but I won't be able to for a little while now. I might be able to start in early December, so maybe I will be able to have results by next summer...

I don't really see the need for DMSO; foliar fertilisers can be applied as a simple water solution, so why not mescaline precursors? I'm also not sure that I like the idea of soaking my cacti in DMSO, it just doesn't seem like a nice thing to do to my plants!

I've also been wondering about making a big length of trich into a little mescaline factory. I'm not sure if this method would work, but I was thinking about getting a fat foot-long cutting, and making a long hole right down the middle, inside the vascular bundle. Then after it callused this hole could be filled with your precursor solution, and it would be gradually absorbed by the cactus. Then when it was all absorbed you could add more solution into the hole, and repeat until you're ready to extract. Don't extract too soon after adding precursors, or you'll just get them back when you extract because they won't have had time to be converted. This might work better with an unrooted cutting, because it will have no other source of water and so the precursor solution is more likely to be absorbed.

Some might say that it is a horrible thing to do to a cactus, but it could be interesting!


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: Nevver thought id do this [Re: Openminded]
    #4674470 - 09/17/05 05:16 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

well, I would say that would be vaguely similar to caging a panda to drain the bile from it... but from a scientific point of view it would be interesting to see if it could be done. If that would actually work, it could hypothetically allow a home-grower to produce nearly commercial levels of mescaline in extractions. I could see the trickle down effect being that black market mescaline might get more common.

Then again, you might eventually get to where the solute concentration of the cactus was just too high for diffusion to work anymore, and the cells would not produce any noteworthy amount of mescaline beyond that point unless it had a reason to use facilitated diffusion or active transport. Since I don't understand the actual purpose of mescaline in the plant biosystem, I have no clue if it would do that.

Then again, the concept is promising... despite sounding too convenient to be true. I'd say give it a try. Although I would be worried about that large a wound in a plant getting infected. it would probably be best just to inject in various locations, it would hurt the plant a lot less too.


--------------------

I find your lack of faith disturbing


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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: Nevver thought id do this [Re: Openminded]
    #4674756 - 09/17/05 07:00 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

DMSO would be used for faster deliverance/greater percentage of the precursor delivered in the tissue. Might be worth it,saving a lot on tyrosine and being more sure it goes in the plant.

Foliar feeding works through stomatal absorption...What substances can be absorbed this way? Any ideas as to their charge/molecular weight/pH of the solution that carries them?

On the "drill a hole issue".Would the callused tissue absorb them? Somehow i doubt you would have great absorption rate if you just use an aquaeous tyramine solution

Also on Epithelantha : http://www.entheology.org/edoto/anmviewer.asp?a=48&z=5


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InvisibleSweetJimmyBrown
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Re: Nevver thought id do this [Re: Psiloman]
    #4676754 - 09/18/05 05:53 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

I did a quick search and found that an Echinocerus is rumored to contain 5-MeO-DMT.


--------------------
Ille dolet vere, qui sine teste dolet.
* * *
I'm as calm as a fruit stand in New york and maybe as strange.
* * *
Simple Grain Recipe


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