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Re: Obama Administration agrees with RIAA destroying a woman's life [Re: string of g]
    #16350256 -

The grey area is this... someone actually does purchase a hard copy of the Album.
They rip it into mp3 using software that's been around for well over 10 years by this point.
Then they do what the fuck they want with it since it is their property.
They share it. Is it illegal to listen to a CD with your friend?
Is it illegal to get sick of a CD and lend it to a friend?
Is it illegal to swap CDs with your friend once you've listened to and experienced that CD already?
Where does it end? and where exactly do you draw the line?
The software is called File Share. The crime is called theft. Obviously this situation will have to come to a head eventually.
A real resolution, not this petty reactionary BS from let's face it, a dying industry.

Adapt or die.
Here's an example of how they could adapt.
Release albums with DVD bonus material, a poster, a t-shirt, fold-outs, band tablature, anything tangible that is actually worth spending money on vs. just downloading it for free, which is obviously a more tempting alternative.
It's not even about right, wrong, stealing, not stealing... it's about confronting the elephant in the room.
The technology has broken through and millions of people have access to this media for free, and can do so with ease.
And the question is, what are you gonna do about it, RIAA? Are you really going to be a bitch about it and go down kicking and screaming with your random lawsuit witch hunts?
I say fuck 'em, either make your product better and worth spending money on or find a new job.


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:thumbup: :thumbdown:

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Re: Obama Administration agrees with RIAA destroying a woman's life [Re: Humility]
    #16350393 -

Humility, you simply misunderstand the whole point.

You don't believe that intellectual property should exist.  I understand that position.  There are others who believe this as well.  If you want a society like that, however, you'll have to settle for a society that does not have things like the internet, computers, medicines, movies, etc..

If you're okay with that, then you should probably leave this site now because it wouldn't exist without copyright and patent laws.  Otherwise, you're just being a hypocrite.  If someone spends countless hours and money researching to find a great solution to a problem, you think it's okay to use that solution without putting in the time to create the solution and without compensating that person for the time and money they spent on that solution.  I disagree with you on this.

As far as your accusation that I want to see this lady or anyone else harshly punished for making a mistake, you're wrong there, too.

This case went to trial 3 times (i believe)...This wasn't the only case, however...this was one of thousands of cases...you didn't hear about the other cases because they settled for a couple of thousand dollars long before ever going to trial..

So this lady had plenty of options here.  She broke the law....she did the wrong thing and violated the intellectual property rights of someone else.  That isn't in dispute.  This, in my book, is doing the wrong thing.

But that isn't where her problems really started.  Her problems really started when she got a demand letter from the RIAA and decided to fight it in court.  She knew she had downloaded these songs...she knew she did the wrong thing.  At that time, she could have done what thousands of other people did and said, "Okay...I fucked up...I got caught...this is going to cost me a little money" and paid a couple of thousand to end the case...

Instead, she hired a lawyer...paid HIM thousands of dollars to fight a case where she KNEW SHE WAS IN THE WRONG..also costing the RIAA thousands more dollars to pursue the case all the way to trial...three times...

NOW, she owes $50,000 for it...good. I hope she learned her lesson.  It's one thing to do the wrong thing...it's an entirely different thing to do the wrong thing and then stonewall someone when they ask you to make it right.  She knew the consequences of losing at trial, and she took a gamble...it turned out to be a bad bet.

I am the first person to rush to the defense of someone who makes an error in judgment.  The vast majority of my clients are guilty as sin.  This does NOT stop me from working very hard to get them the best possible outcome.  Sometimes, my clients walk free...sometimes they go to prison...In any case, whether or not they "deserve" it doesn't play into the kind of work I do for them....but I also don't feel badly for a client who happens to end up in prison for something he did wrong.


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Re: Obama Administration agrees with RIAA destroying a woman's life [Re: Great Scott]
    #16350555 -

I'll keep you in my thoughts Enlil.  Hopefully one day you'll decide against harming people because one man wrote something down on a piece of paper and you choose to follow that man and enforce your will with violence.


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Re: Obama Administration agrees with RIAA destroying a woman's life [Re: Humility]
    #16350568 -

If I don't agree with what's written on that paper...I'll fight to change it...I'll get like-minded people to fight by my side.  I'll get people elected that change that paper...

What do you do...other than piss and moan on the internet?


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Obama Administration agrees with RIAA destroying a woman's life [Re: Humility]
    #16350597 -

Car stereos are one thing. You can't steal INFINITE COPIES of 1s and 0s. It is simply not the same thing.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2012/02/03/you-will-never-kill-piracy-and-piracy-will-never-kill-you/

Quote:
It’s not moral, it’s not right, but it’s there and it’s easy and there’s no one to stop you from doing it, and never will be. If after ten years and millions of dollars in legal fees they finally manage to kill the Pirate Bay, there are hundreds of other torrent sites that exist, and more will spring up. If they ban torrents altogether, the internet will invent something new.

Piracy is not raiding and plundering Best Buys and FYEs, smashing the windows and running out with the loot. It’s like being placed in a store full of every DVD in existence. There are no employees, no security guards, and when you take a copy of movie, another one materializes in its place, so you’re not actually taking anything. If you were in such a store, you’d only have your base moral convictions to keep you from cloning every movie in sight. And anyone who knows how to get to this store isn’t going to let their conscience stop them, especially when there is no tangible “loss” to even feel bad about.

It’s not a physical product that’s being taken. There’s nothing going missing, which is generally the hallmark of any good theft. The movie and music industries’ claim that each download is a lost sale is absurd. I might take every movie in that fictional store if I was able to, but would I have spent $3 million to legally buy every single DVD? No, I’d probably have picked my two favorite movies and gone home. So yes, there are losses, but they are miniscule compared to what the companies actually claim they’re losing.




Don't really care what anyone says. Piracy is good. And I say that as a musician.
When I was in a touring band, I fucking loved it when people downloaded my music. = more exposure.
Times are a changing. Go with the flow or sink in your archaic obsolete boat.
RIAA is fighting a losing battle. They will never, ever win.


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Re: Obama Administration agrees with RIAA destroying a woman's life [Re: Shroomism]
    #16350638 -

I'm a ninja pirate. Can't catch me stealing if you don't know I'm there and none of your shit is missing. :shrug:


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~The Cultivators Motherload~

"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them.
I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." -Robert A. Heinlein

"There is no need for temples, no need for complicated philosophies.
My brain and my heart are my temples; my philosophy is kindness."-Dalai Lama

Live long and prosper.


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Re: Obama Administration agrees with RIAA destroying a woman's life [Re: Kada]
    #16350825 -

Right or wrong, piracy is a natural consequence of how the technology works and it can never be stopped even by completely clamping down on the internet. As solid state storage matures, it's going to get more and more trivial to trade huge amounts of data in person with your friends cheaply and quickly. Suing the fuck out of a few poor suckers is not going to change the fact that the artificial scarcity of recordings that once existed is now long gone. Some people realize that and provide access to their shit cheaply and conveniently, knowing that their distribution costs per customer are now peanuts compared to the days where they were fucking around with CDs and packaging etc. The adversarial approach will always fail as it has with the drug war, but pursuing it will force everyone to settle for a much more restricted and watched internet.

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Re: Obama Administration agrees with RIAA destroying a woman's life [Re: psi]
    #16350828 -

You're right in a way...expecting people to respect the rights of other people when it is so easy to simply take what you want for free is unrealistic.

Greed almost always triumphs over morals...That's why we have laws that allow for punishments to encourage people to do the right thing instead of simply serving their greed...not all of those laws are effective, and technology often moves far faster than the laws could ever adapt...

It's just a sad state of affairs when an artist no longer has the choice of how to distribute his work...


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Re: Obama Administration agrees with RIAA destroying a woman's life [Re: Enlil]
    #16351234 -

And yet, there are people who pay a monthly fee to Netflix when they are fully aware they could simply torrent all the same movies and shows and more. If the price is reasonable enough and the service is convenient, the incentive to pirate is greatly reduced.

Enlil said:
It's just a sad state of affairs when an artist no longer has the choice of how to distribute his work...


I disagree, they have all the same distribution options as before the Napster era plus a few more. They just have less influence in stopping others from distributing it without their permission (not quite the same thing IMO) because technology capable of mass distribution of perfect copies exists everywhere, instead of just in the hands of a few big players as before. If they like, they can even chose not to release an album at all, or release it on vinyl to make copying more lossy and technically difficult.

Even in the cassette tape era there was no possible way to stop a significant percentage of person to person copying with legal means short of banning tapes and recorders. The copies were just of poorer quality at that time because of the nature of the technology, plus the tapes themselves were expensive and unweildy enough that few people bothered pirating mass amounts of music in that way. These days, the market is saturated with cheap and free media and music both legal and illegal, and the days of cranking out millions of CD or DVDs and hawking them for $20+ a piece are numbered no matter how many people you crack over the head. Even aside from online piracy, thrift stores are full of ~30 years worth of music CDs for next to nothing that can be bought by the stack, ripped losslessly to FLAC and then thrown in the trash if desired.

The upside for content owners of the technology is that their costs to distribute media are greatly reduced, and there are musicians who are using that fact to make a decent living with low overhead costs that were previously unheard of.

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Re: Obama Administration agrees with RIAA destroying a woman's life [Re: psi]
    #16351262 -

None of that undercuts my statement...

Treating a work of art or invention like it's shared public property reduces the skill and/or talent of creating the art or invention to the point where it has no value.  There will always be people who want to write a song, sure...but less will be able to afford to if it only pays like any other hobby..

It still comes down to the same nonsensical argument:  You'll never stop it, so just allow it...

Doing the wrong thing is doing the wrong thing regardless of whether you can get away with it.  If an artist wants his work to be free to anyone who wants it, I'm all for that...if an artist wants to sell exclusive rights to copy his art to some company..I'm all for that, as well...or anything in between.  When you or anyone else makes the choice to copy that art on your own terms, you've taken that choice away from the artist...rationalize it all you want.


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Re: Obama Administration agrees with RIAA destroying a woman's life [Re: Humility]
    #16351295 -

Humility said:
NWlight said:
Quote:
Nothing was *taken* from an original owner, and even if it was, I am not receiving stolen PROPERTY, I am receiving COPIES of sounds.



The income from record sales was stolen from the original owner.

you ARE receiving stolen property, in that it is a COPY of something that was originally paid for, for use by the person who bought it.

your logic is fail



Quote:
but the copyright owner was DENIED the funds the sales would have brought



You two are misunderstanding basic economics.

Simply because I desire a good at one price does not mean I desire it at another.



if you choose not to pay the price for the music at a retail location or
what ever other authorized distribution method the artist and record
company have chosen then dont, if enough people say CD's are over priced so
we wont buy, then according to simple economics the price comes down,
piracy has nothing to do with simple economics, it has to do with theft of
intellectual property, this is not economic, it's law and under the law if
you choose not to pay the retail price, get busted for downloading then the
price you pay far exceeds that retail price


Quote:
How can you reasonably prove that ANY of the individuals that downloaded files would have instead bought that data if downloading it was unavailable to them?


no one is making that claim

Quote:
EVEN IF THAT'S THE CASE it is not stealing.  You do not own "futures" on media.  It's impossible and trying to make it so by harming people who download files that are shared consensually will never work.


record companies own the rights for sale and distribution and clearly $50k
in judgments plus legal fees has slowed people from downloading and given
that there's been several other settlements that rank in millions as well
as many in hundreds of thousands which have had the same effect then it is
working at least in the regard to traceable downloads. there's fewer people
using bit torrent and other p2p software


Quote:
Want to know what works?  T-shirts, concerts, book-signings, public outreach and events, donations, etc.  That's how artists can make their money.


record companies promote the artists, without the sales of the discs the
record companies cannot promote them, without promotion the artists are
forced to book smaller venues, sales drop and the artists suffer

Quote:
Not by telling people you own the right to certain pre-recorded sounds.  That is beyond ridiculous and not consistent with natural law.


to claim that they dont is convoluted hippie logic, it's a thief trying to
excuse his thievery and nothing more


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Obama Administration agrees with RIAA destroying a woman's life [Re: Enlil]
    #16351329 -

Enlil said:
It still comes down to the same nonsensical argument:  You'll never stop it, so just allow it...


I don't believe that's a nonsensical argument at all. A misguided attempt to control piracy can easily result in a reduction in privacy for everyone online because it requires broad monitoring of all traffic, creating an extra problem in addition to the one it can't possibly solve (as with the drug war). If you read my first post carefully, that's essentially what I said in the first place.

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Re: Obama Administration agrees with RIAA destroying a woman's life [Re: psi]
    #16351345 -

NEWSFLASH:  If we, as a society, did not protect intellectual property, very few artists, inventors, or writers would exist. 

YOU benefit from the IP laws because they encourage people to create...so you get to enjoy the creations of these people...

In the absence of IP protection, all forms of art would become rare, hard to find, and only available to the wealthy.


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Re: Obama Administration agrees with RIAA destroying a woman's life [Re: Enlil] * 3
    #16351351 -

I dont think that is true.  Do you have any evidence to support that claim, or are you just parroting what you have been told?

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Re: Obama Administration agrees with RIAA destroying a woman's life [Re: DieCommie]
    #16351372 -

Neither, really...It's an a priori hypothesis of my own creation...

Since copyright law has been in place for centuries, there really isn't any data to compare.  I do know, however, that the whole purpose of creating IP law was to encourage people to innovate...whether it has actually done that or not is hard to say.

I also know that certain artforms of the past have become less profitable and have seen a corresponding drop in availability...this is true of poetry and theatre...I suspect music will follow the same path shortly.


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Re: Obama Administration agrees with RIAA destroying a woman's life [Re: DieCommie]
    #16351388 -

it's fascism. downloading art is a crime, growing plants is a crime, having 'unlicensed dance parties' is a crime. fuck the system

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Re: Obama Administration agrees with RIAA destroying a woman's life [Re: mewmew]
    #16351456 -

Someone needs to look up fascism.


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Re: Obama Administration agrees with RIAA destroying a woman's life [Re: Enlil]
    #16352356 -

Sorry but art has flourished long before, and will continue to thrive long after, regardless of IP Laws. If anything they hinder art.


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Re: Obama Administration agrees with RIAA destroying a woman's life [Re: Shroomism]
    #16352374 -

I disagree...

Art will always exist...but I don't know if it's fair to say that art "flourished" before ip laws...It certainly doesn't appear that way....If you take every book ever written before ip laws, I'll bet that they don't amount to as many books as were written last year alone...

Before IP laws, art was a luxury...a rarity...


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Re: Obama Administration agrees with RIAA destroying a woman's life [Re: Enlil]
    #16352447 -

Quote:
Before IP laws, art was a luxury...a rarity...


Nah, art is pervasive.  Every family can and did make and consume art.  Every civilization has been full of art long before ip laws.

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