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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Bin Ladens Victory
    #1399259 - 03/21/03 08:40 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

A political system that delivers this disastrous mistake needs reform

Richard Dawkins
Saturday March 22, 2003
The Guardian

Osama bin Laden, in his wildest dreams, could hardly have hoped for this. A mere 18 months after he boosted the US to a peak of worldwide sympathy unprecedented since Pearl Harbor, that international goodwill has been squandered to near zero. Bin Laden must be beside himself with glee. And the infidels are now walking right into the Iraq trap.
There was always a risk for Bin Laden that worldwide sympathy for the US might thwart his long-term aim of holy war against the Great Satan. He needn't have worried. With the Bush junta at the helm, a camel could have foreseen the outcome. And the beauty is that it doesn't matter what happens in the war.

Imagine how it looks from Bin Laden's warped point of view...

If the American victory is swift, Bush will have done our work for us, removing the hated Saddam and opening the way for a decent Islamist government. Even better, in 2004 Bush may actually win an election. Who can guess what that swaggering, strutting little pouter-pigeon will then get up to, and what resentments he will arouse, when he finally has something to swagger about? We shall have so many martyrs volunteering, we shall run out of targets. And a slow and bloody American victory would be better still.

The claim that this war is about weapons of mass destruction is either dishonest or betrays a lack of foresight verging on negligence. If war is so vitally necessary now, was it not at least worth mentioning in the election campaigns of 2000 and 2001? Why didn't Bush and Blair mention the war to their respective electorates? The only major leader who has an electoral mandate for his war policy is Gerhard Schr?der - and he is against it. Why did Bush, with Blair trotting faithfully to heel, suddenly start threatening to invade Iraq when he did, and not before? The answer is embarrassingly simple, and they don't even seem ashamed of it. Illogical, even childish, though it is, everything changed on September 11 2001.

Whatever anyone may say about weapons of mass destruction, or about Saddam's savage brutality to his own people, the reason Bush can now get away with his war is that a sufficient number of Americans, including, apparently, Bush himself, see it as revenge for 9/11. This is worse than bizarre. It is pure racism and/or religious prejudice. Nobody has made even a faintly plausible case that Iraq had anything to do with the atrocity. It was Arabs that hit the World Trade Centre, right? So let's go and kick Arab ass. Those 9/11 terrorists were Muslims, right? And Eye-raqis are Muslims, right? That does it. We're gonna go in there and show them some hardware. Shock and awe? You bet.

The population of the US is nearly 300 million, including many of the best educated, most talented, most resourceful, humane people on earth. By almost any measure of civilised attainment, from Nobel prize-counts on down, the US leads the world by miles. You would think that a country with such resources, and such a field of talent, would be able to elect a leader of the highest quality. Yet, what has happened? At the end of all the primaries and party caucuses, the speeches and the televised debates, after a year or more of non-stop electioneering bustle, who, out of that entire population of 300 million, emerges at the top of the heap? George Bush.

Saddam Hussein has been a catastrophe for Iraq, but he never posed a threat outside his immediate neighbourhood. George Bush is a catastrophe for the world. And a dream for Bin Laden.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Bin Ladens Victory [Re: Xlea321]
    #1399278 - 03/21/03 08:54 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Is that Richard Dawkins the evolutionist? I own alot of his books.


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man = monkey + mushroom


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Offlinefelix
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Re: Bin Ladens Victory [Re: pattern]
    #1399374 - 03/21/03 10:40 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

he never posed a threat outside his immediate neighbourhood.

LoL


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Real botanists laugh at HPS systems, we do however use high pressure sodium in the parking lot. - artthug


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Bin Ladens Victory [Re: felix]
    #1399381 - 03/21/03 10:47 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

LoL




Well other than Iran,Kuwait and Israel who has Iraq posed a real threat to?


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Always Smi2le


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Bin Ladens Victory [Re: GazzBut]
    #1399510 - 03/22/03 01:35 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Iraq, and honestly probably the rest of the world. We could have kept him under controll with more sanctions, but a war is alot cleaner, more effective, and will probably kill fewer innocents.


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: Bin Ladens Victory [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1399527 - 03/22/03 02:02 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

We know that first gulf war killed about 100000 and UN estimates that additional million have died because of sanctions.
How many Iraquis did Saddam kill? Is he even close to these number?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Bin Ladens Victory [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1399535 - 03/22/03 02:25 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

We could have kept him under controll with more sanctions

The time he needed keeping under control was in the 80's. Unfortunately that was the time Donald Rumsfield was shaking his hand and Reagan and Bush were arming him to the teeth and giving him billion dollar loans.

If only they hadn't.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Bin Ladens Victory [Re: Xlea321]
    #1399558 - 03/22/03 03:29 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Good post!


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: Bin Ladens Victory [Re: sirreal]
    #1399714 - 03/22/03 05:58 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I just read an article in a newspaper stating that when Iraq invaded Kuwait Osama tried to convince Saudis that they let Al-Quaeda attack and remove the ateist regime in Iraq.
He never had better chances to achieve his goals than now. Massive violent protest are happening in pro-american muslim countries. And the war in Afghanistan is still going on.
Does anybody think that this shit will end with the removal of Saddam?






Edited by zeronio (03/22/03 05:59 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Bin Ladens Victory [Re: Xlea321]
    #1399765 - 03/22/03 06:35 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

"If war is so vitally necessary now, was it not at least worth mentioning in the election campaigns of 2000 and 2001?"
"Illogical, even childish, though it is, everything changed on September 11 2001."
"Whatever anyone may say about weapons of mass destruction, or about Saddam's savage brutality to his own people, the reason Bush can now get away with his war is that a sufficient number of Americans, including, apparently, Bush himself, see it as revenge for 9/11."

i guess the author missed this interview:

''No one had envisioned Saddam, at least at that point in history, no one envisioned him still standing. It's time to finish the task.''

''And if I found in any way, shape, or form that he was developing weapons of mass destruction, I'd take him out. I'm surprised he's still there. I think a lot of other people are as well.''

- George W. Bush, during an interview with the BBC, Nov. 18, 2000




Edited by Anonymous (03/22/03 07:48 AM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bin Ladens Victory [Re: zeronio]
    #1400147 - 03/22/03 09:53 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

zeronio writes:

How many Iraquis did Saddam kill? Is he even close to these number?

All of those who died due to the sanctions, for one. The sanctions are a direct result of his actions.

Apart from the Iraqi troops whom he killed in his two wars of aggression, various human rights groups estimate he has killed anywhere from a few hundred thousand to a million Iraqi civilians over his two dozen years in power.

pinky



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Anonymous

Re: Bin Ladens Victory [Re: Phred]
    #1400163 - 03/22/03 09:58 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

the sactions could easily be blamed to the countries actually applying them. why make innocent civilians suffer?


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Bin Ladens Victory [Re: ]
    #1400202 - 03/22/03 10:19 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I agree! Sanctions are bullshit.

Who really cares about the Iraqi people? Sanctions prove that noone in power does!


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bin Ladens Victory [Re: ]
    #1400226 - 03/22/03 10:29 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

LoOnEr writes:

the sactions could easily be blamed to the countries actually applying them.

Easily, yes. Truthfully, no. No matter how much one tries to wiggle and squirm and weasel, the simple fact is that if Hussein hadn't invaded Kuwait, there would have been no sanctions. Or if he had lived up to the deal he agreed to once he surrendered.

pinky



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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Bin Ladens Victory [Re: Phred]
    #1400261 - 03/22/03 10:45 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

the simple fact is that if Hussein hadn't invaded Kuwait, there would have been no sanctions

Indonesias genocidal invasion of East Timor, Israel invading the Lebanon, Gaza strip etc. None of these have been subjected to a decade of medieval sanctions. Indeed the genocidal regime of Suharto has on the contrary recieved massive US support.

I'm sorry but "because he invaded kuwait" doesn't justify enforcing sanctions that have slaughtered well over 700,000 children under 5 years old. You'll need something better than that.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Bin Ladens Victory [Re: Xlea321]
    #1400269 - 03/22/03 10:48 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

however predictable, this alexism is actually relevant this time. economic sanctions are crap.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Bin Ladens Victory [Re: ]
    #1400289 - 03/22/03 10:56 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

The truth usually is predictable. Lies are the things you can never be too sure about.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bin Ladens Victory [Re: Xlea321]
    #1400317 - 03/22/03 11:11 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

I'm sorry but "because he invaded kuwait" doesn't justify enforcing sanctions...

I didn't say they did. As I said, the sanctions were a totally useless typical UN copout toothless pussy gesture meant to compensate for their enormous blunder in not doing the job properly in the 1991 Gulf War.

What I did say is that if Hussein hadn't invaded Kuwait, there would have been no sanctions. And this is true, no matter how vigorously you pursue your usual Alex non-sequitur dance.

pinky


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Edited by pinksharkmark (03/22/03 11:13 AM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bin Ladens Victory [Re: Xlea321]
    #1400321 - 03/22/03 11:15 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

I'm sorry but "because he invaded kuwait" doesn't justify enforcing sanctions...

I didn't say they did. As I said, the sanctions were a totally useless typical UN copout toothless puusy gesture meant to compensate for their enormous blunder in not doing the job properly in the 1991 Gulf War.

What I did say is that if Hussein hadn't invaded Kuwait, there would have been no sanctions. And this is true, no matter how vigorously you pursue your usual Alex non-sequitur dance.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Bin Ladens Victory [Re: Phred]
    #1400329 - 03/22/03 11:20 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

were a totally useless typical UN copout toothless pussy gesture

No, don't try and pass the buck on this to the "UN". The US and UK were fundamental in having sanctions imposed and keeping them imposed for a decade. With the US allowing Saddam to put down the rebellions in the North and South in 1991 it's likely they calculated that a weak Saddam was of more benefit to them at that than any other leader of Iraq.

The 700,000 kids who perished were just pawns in the game.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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