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OfflineTrepiodos
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Questions for former CIA Chief of Bin Laden Counterterrorist Center
    #6091600 - 09/22/06 09:04 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

SIX QUESTIONS FOR MICHAEL SCHEUER ON NATIONAL SECURITY
Wednesday, August 23, 2006. By Ken Silverstein.
(link to article)

Michael Scheuer served in the CIA for 22 years before resigning in 2004; he served as the chief of the bin Laden unit at the Counterterrorist Center from 1996 to 1999. He is the formerly anonymous author of Imperial Hubris: Why the West is Losing the War on Terror and Through Our Enemies' Eyes: Osama bin Laden, Radical Islam, and the Future of America.I met him for breakfast last week at an IHOP in the Virginia suburbs outside of Washington. Over a plate of eggs and hash browns, he answered a series of questions about the current state of the Bush Administration's “War on Terrorism.” His prognosis was illuminating and insightful—and, unfortunately, almost unrelentingly grim.

1. We're coming up on the five-year anniversary of the 9/11 attacks. Is the country safer or more vulnerable to terrorism?

On balance, more vulnerable. We're safer in terms of aircraft travel. We're safer from being attacked by some dumbhead who tries to come into the country through an official checkpoint; we've spent billions on that. But for the most part our victories have been tactical and not strategic. There have been important successes by the intelligence services and Special Forces in capturing and killing Al Qaeda militants, but in the long run that's just a body count, not progress. We can't capture them one by one and bring them to justice. There are too many of them, and more now than before September 11. In official Western rhetoric these are finite organizations, but every time we interfere in Muslim countries they get more support.

In the long run, we're not safer because we're still operating on the assumption that we're hated because of our freedoms, when in fact we're hated because of our actions in the Islamic world. There's our military presence in Islamic countries, the perception that we control the Muslim world's oil production, our support for Israel and for countries that oppress Muslims such as China, Russia, and India, and our own support for Arab tyrannies. The deal we made with Qadaffi in Libya looks like hypocrisy: we'll make peace with a brutal dictator if it gets us oil. President Bush is right when he says all people aspire to freedom but he doesn't recognize that people have different definitions of democracy. Publicly promoting democracy while supporting tyranny may be the most damaging thing we do. From the standpoint of democracy, Saudi Arabia looks much worse than Iran. We use the term “Islamofascism”—but we're supporting it in Saudi Arabia, with Mubarak in Egypt, and even Jordan is a police state. We don't have a strategy because we don't have a clue about what motivates our enemies.

2. Is Al Qaeda stronger or weaker than it was five years ago?

The quality of its leadership is not as high as it was in 2001, because we've killed and captured so many of its leaders. But they have succession planning that works very well. We keep saying that we're killing their leaders, but you notice that we keep having to kill their number twos, threes and fours all over again. They bring in replacements, and these are not novices off the street—they're understudies. From the very first, bin Laden has said that he's just one person and Al Qaeda is a vanguard organization, that it needs other Muslims to join them. He's always said that his primary goal is to incite attacks by people who might not have any direct contact with Al Qaeda. Since 2001, and especially since mid-2005, there's been an increase in the number of groups that were not directly tied to Al Qaeda but were inspired by bin Laden's words and actions.

We also shouldn't underestimate the stature of bin Laden and Zawahiri in the Muslim world now that they've survived five years of war with the United States. You see commentary in the Muslim press: “How have they been able to defy the United States? It takes something special.” Their heroic status is an important fact. It helps explain why these cells keep popping up. Meanwhile, Al Qaeda is also assisting insurgencies in Afghanistan and Iraq. I agree with the view that we've moved from man and organization to philosophy and movement, but one hasn't entirely replaced the other. There are three levels: Al Qaeda central is still intact; there are groups long affiliated with Al Qaeda, in places like Kashmir, the Philippines, and Indonesia; and there are the new groups inspired by Al Qaeda.

3. Given all this, why hasn't there been an attack on the United States for the past five years?

It's not just a lack of capacity; they're not ready to do it. They put more emphasis on success than speed, and the next attack has to be bigger than 9/11. They could shoot up a mall if that's what they wanted to do. But the world is going their way. Our leaders have been clever in defining success as preventing a big terrorist attack on the United States, but we've lost some 3,000 soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. We've spent billions on those wars, and as in Vietnam the government has suffered a real hit on its credibility. The war in Iraq has created huge divisiveness in our domestic politics, not to mention in our relationships with our European allies. At the same time, there are more people willing to take up arms against the United States, and we have less ability to win hearts and minds in the Arab world. If you're bin Laden living in a cave, all those things are part of the war and those things are going your way.

4. Has the war in Iraq helped or hurt in the fight against terrorism?

It broke the back of our counterterrorism program. Iraq was the perfect execution of a war that demanded jihad to oppose it. You had an infidel power invading and occupying a Muslim country and it was perceived to be unprovoked. Many senior Western officials said that bin Laden was not a scholar and couldn't declare a jihad but other Muslim clerics did. So that religious question was erased.

Secondly, Iraq is in the Arab heartland and, far more than Afghanistan, is a magnet for mujahideen. You can see this in the large number of people crossing the border to fight us. It wasn't a lot at the start, but there's been a steady growth as the war continues. The war has validated everything bin Laden said: that the United States will destroy any strong government in the Arab world, that it will seek to destroy Israel's enemies, that it will occupy Muslim holy places, that it will seize Arab oil, and that it will replace God's law with man's law. We see Iraq as a honey pot that attracts jihadists whom we can kill there instead of fighting them here. We are ignoring that Iraq is not just a place to kill Americans; Al Qaeda has always said that it requires safe havens. It has said it couldn't get involved with large numbers in the Balkans war because it had no safe haven in the region. Now they have a safe haven in Iraq, which is so big and is going to be so unsettled for so long. For the first time, it gives Al Qaeda contiguous access to the Arabian Peninsula, to Turkey, and to the Levant. We may have written the death warrant for Jordan. If we pull out of Iraq, we have a problem in that we may have to leave a large contingent of troops in Jordan. All of this is a tremendous advantage for Al Qaeda. We've moved the center of jihad a thousand miles west from Afghanistan to the Middle East.

5. Things seemed to have turned for the worse in Afghanistan too. What's your take on the situation there?

The President was sold a bill of goods by George Tenet and the CIA—that a few dozen intel guys, a few hundred Special Forces, and truckloads of money could win the day. What happened is what's happened ever since Alexander the Great, three centuries before Christ: the cities fell quickly, which we mistook for victory. Three years later, the Taliban has regrouped, and there's a strong insurgency. We paid a great price for demonizing the Taliban. We saw them as evil because they didn't let women work, but that's largely irrelevant in Afghanistan. They provided nationwide law and order for the first time in 25 years; we destroyed that and haven't replaced it. They're remembered in Afghanistan for their harsh, theocratic rule, but remembered more for the security they provided. In the end, we'll lose and leave. The idea that we can control Afghanistan with 22,000 soldiers, most of whom are indifferent to the task, is far-fetched. The Soviets couldn't do it with 150,000 soldiers and utter brutality. Before the invasion of Afghanistan, [the military historian] John Keegan said the only way to go there was as a punitive mission, to destroy your enemy and get out. That was prescient; our only real mission there should have been to kill bin Laden and Zawahiri and as many Al Qaeda fighters as possible, and we didn't do it.

6. Has the war in Lebanon also been a plus for the jihadists?

Yes. The Israel-Hezbollah battle validates bin Laden. It showed that the Arab regimes are useless, that they can't protect their own nationals, and that they are apostate regimes that are creatures of the infidels. It also showed that the Americans will let Israel do whatever it wants. It was clear from the way the West reacted that it would let Israel take its best shot before it tried diplomacy. I saw an article in the Arab press—in London, I think—that said Lebanon was like a caught fish, that the United States nailed it to the wall and Israel gutted it. The most salient point it showed for Islamists is that Muslim blood is cheap. Israel said it went to war to get back its captured soldiers. The price was the gutting of Lebanon. Olmert said that Israel would fight until it got its soldiers back and until Hezbollah was disarmed. Neither happened. No matter how you spin it, this will be viewed as a victory for Hezbollah. Israel withdrew from southern Lebanon six years ago. Since then there have been the two intifadas, and now this. The idea of Israel being militarily omnipotent is fading.

7. And finally, an extra question—what needs to be done?

This may be a country bumpkin approach, but the truth is the best place to start. We need to acknowledge that we are at war, not because of who we are, but because of what we do. We are confronting a jihad that is inspired by the tangible and visible impact of our policies. People are willing to die for that, and we're not going to win by killing them off one by one. We have a dozen years of reliable polling in the Middle East, and it shows overwhelming hostility to our policies—and at the same time it shows majorities that admire the way we live, our ability to feed and clothe our children and find work. We need to tell the truth to set the stage for a discussion of our foreign policy.

At the core of the debate is oil. As long as we and our allies are dependent on Gulf oil, we can't do anything about the perception that we support Arab tyranny—the Saudis, the Kuwaitis, and other regimes in the region. Without the problem of oil, who cares who rules Saudi Arabia? If we solved the oil problem, we could back away from the contradiction of being democracy promoters and tyranny protectors. We should have started on this back in 1973, at the time of the first Arab oil embargo, but we've never moved away from our dependence. As it stands, we are going to have to fight wars if anything endangers the oil supply in the Middle East.

What you want with foreign policy is options. Right now we don't have options because our economy and our allies' economies are dependent on Middle East oil. What benefit do we get by letting China commit genocide-by-inundation by moving thousands and thousands of Han Chinese to overcome the dominance of Muslim Uighurs? What do we get out of supporting Putin in Chechnya? He may need to do it to maintain his country, but we don't need to support what looks like a rape, pillage, and kill campaign against Muslims. The other area is Israel and Palestine. We're not going to abandon the Israelis but we need to reestablish the relationship so it looks like we're the great power and they're our ally, and not the other way around. We need to create a situation where moderate Muslims can express support for the United States without being laughed off the block.


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...

- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'

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OfflineTrepiodos
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Re: Questions for former CIA Chief of Bin Laden Counterterrorist Center [Re: Trepiodos]
    #6092815 - 09/23/06 10:18 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Where are comments from the shroomery's resident warfare state sycophants?


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...

- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Questions for former CIA Chief of Bin Laden Counterterrorist Center [Re: Trepiodos]
    #6092904 - 09/23/06 11:03 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

What do you want us to say? The guy's clearly bitter about something (probably the fact that he used to be head of the Bin Laden unit) and he's saying things that I find hard to substantiate.

Some examples:
He claims that support for India draws hatred in the Muslim world because India oppresses Muslims. While there may be religious violence in India (there definitely is) it lacks the state sanctioning of the Russian campaign in Chechnya, or the actions of Israel, yet they're all mentioned in the same breath.

He also pretends we haven't been complaining about China's human rights record since the 1970s, and this has lead to increased Muslim anger. This is clearly false, the US has time and again condemned the Chinese government's stance on human rights, especially during the 1980s and 1990s, and it has won us absolutely no credibility in the Muslim world.

He seems to be of the (not surprisingly, given his background) misguided opinion that if we changed our policies everything would magically go away. Except that this is clearly false.

We gave money and guns to the fighters in Afghanistan to help free them from the Soviets, and we did this throughout the 1980s. This won us no credibility in the Muslim world.

We placed troops in Saudi Arabia at the behest of the Saudi government, and with the support of the majority of the populace of Saudi Arabia, for the purpose of protecting the country from Iraq. This is the reason Bin Laden specifically cited for declaring his first official fatwa.

Furthermore, other complaints from the "mujahideen" include our incessant selling of Britney Spears CDs, and our being of satellite television to their region.

On the topic of Israel, sure we support the Israeli government, and I really wish we didn't. However, that doesn't change the fact that the Palestinians have decided to employ suicide bombers. So, it's wrong for us to sell the Israelis guns, but it's cool if the Muslims kill themselves in an effort to also kill unarmed civilians?

The fact of the matter is that the Muslim world has worked itself into one big damn delusion, and changing our Mid East policies is not going to do a thing for decades, and maybe not even then. We're facing a people who are angry at their own governments' mismanagement of their problems, and have chosen to blame us for it. They're so misguided that they're willing to overlook legitimate help we've given them in the past in favor of nebulous examples of how we're evil. (Oooooh, we support the "evil" Saudi Regime, and this coming from people who liked the Taleban, because they were somehow comparatively "less evil")

The invasion of Iraq was not the proper solution, but if you think being a little harsher on Saudi Arabia or cutting ties with Israel is going to suddenly make the attacks stop, you're dreaming.

In many ways, it would probably make things worse. People could now say: Look, Bin Laden attacked America and suddenly they stopped backing Israel, his methods must work! I see no reason to suspect that is any less likely an outcome as the alternative.

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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Questions for former CIA Chief of Bin Laden Counterterrorist Center [Re: Economist]
    #6093114 - 09/23/06 12:28 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

He also pretends we haven't been complaining about China's human rights record since the 1970s, and this has lead to increased Muslim anger. This is clearly false, the US has time and again condemned the Chinese government's stance on human rights, especially during the 1980s and 1990s, and it has won us absolutely no credibility in the Muslim world.





If your referring to the Chinese genocide in East Turkmenistan then yes the USA has turned a blind eye on it, despite human rights allegations we've done nothing to even raise a eye to this behavior. We earned Al Qaeda's wrath in 92 officially.


Quote:

The fact of the matter is that the Muslim world has worked itself into one big damn delusion, and changing our Mid East policies is not going to do a thing for decades, and maybe not even then. We're facing a people who are angry at their own governments' mismanagement of their problems, and have chosen to blame us for it. They're so misguided that they're willing to overlook legitimate help we've given them in the past in favor of nebulous examples of how we're evil. (Oooooh, we support the "evil" Saudi Regime, and this coming from people who liked the Taleban, because they were somehow comparatively "less evil")





Changing our mideast policy? Or policy has earned us every enemy we could imagine, And what Schuerer is trying to illustrate is this. It doesnt matter how "evil" or oppressive a government is, First and foremost people in their country want Security and Order, Something we have not brought to either Iraq or Afghanistan, and this fuels the insurgency.


Quote:

On the topic of Israel, sure we support the Israeli government, and I really wish we didn't. However, that doesn't change the fact that the Palestinians have decided to employ suicide bombers. So, it's wrong for us to sell the Israelis guns, but it's cool if the Muslims kill themselves in an effort to also kill unarmed civilians?




This seems rather simplified, The hypocrisy of this is the fact that Israel who prides itself on minimizing casualties killed more civilians with precision bombs then Hezbollah with indescriminate rocket salvos, the fact that USA repeatedly vetoed a stop the violence sent even a message to the arab puppet governments that their time is soon over.

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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Questions for former CIA Chief of Bin Laden Counterterrorist Center [Re: Trepiodos]
    #6093123 - 09/23/06 12:31 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)



Michael Scheuer Is a foremost expert on Bin Laden and Al Qaeda.
If their is anyone who knows what they are talking about its this guy.

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Questions for former CIA Chief of Bin Laden Counterterrorist Center [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #6093274 - 09/23/06 01:24 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
If your referring to the Chinese genocide in East Turkmenistan then yes the USA has turned a blind eye on it, despite human rights allegations we've done nothing to even raise a eye to this behavior. We earned Al Qaeda's wrath in 92 officially.



Talk about over-simplification. We complain about Chinese human rights abuses - nothing changes. Parts of China go into rebellion and the government cracks down on them. What are we supposed to do? Go to war with China? Please.

Islamist extremists who use this as justification for anything are clearly unrealistic and delusional. Furthermore, if their solution is to attack us and not China, they lack a clear sense of direction.

Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
Changing our mideast policy? Or policy has earned us every enemy we could imagine, And what Schuerer is trying to illustrate is this. It doesnt matter how "evil" or oppressive a government is, First and foremost people in their country want Security and Order, Something we have not brought to either Iraq or Afghanistan, and this fuels the insurgency.



Oh, you mean like the Security and Order that Russia has imposed in Chechnya?

The Muslim world is trying to catch us in a double-standard (and call us hypocritical while doing it). On the one hand, they want us to come down on non-Islamic governments that oppress people (Russia, China, Israel), but if we come down on Islamic governments that oppress people, we're ignorant infidels.

Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
This seems rather simplified, The hypocrisy of this is the fact that Israel who prides itself on minimizing casualties killed more civilians with precision bombs then Hezbollah with indescriminate rocket salvos, the fact that USA repeatedly vetoed a stop the violence sent even a message to the arab puppet governments that their time is soon over.



So... the problem is that Israel inadvertantly kills civilians while Hezbollah tries to deliberately kill civilians, and Hezbollah turned out to be very bad at achieving their stated goal...

There is no justifying the targetted killing on innocents, which is exactly what Palestinian militants and Hezbollah both try to do. Israel's actions don't weigh into this part of it: It is NOT okay to deliberately kill civilians. END OF STORY.

Yes, it is tragic and terrible that civilians died in the Israeli air-campaign, and yes the campaign was horribly disproportional to the kidnapping of 2 soldiers, HOWEVER, the fact remains that Israel at no point in time decided to being deliberately killing Lebanese civilians. Can you imagine the death toll if they did? Easily in the hundreds of thousands.

Hezbollah, meanwhile, had no goal beyond killing civilians, and they were upfront about it. Talk about hypocrisy.

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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Questions for former CIA Chief of Bin Laden Counterterrorist Center [Re: Economist]
    #6093344 - 09/23/06 01:54 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Talk about over-simplification. We complain about Chinese human rights abuses - nothing changes. Parts of China go into rebellion and the government cracks down on them. What are we supposed to do? Go to war with China? Please.

Islamist extremists who use this as justification for anything are clearly unrealistic and delusional. Furthermore, if their solution is to attack us and not China, they lack a clear sense of direction.




The USA has stuck themselves into to large a double standard as well, The USA will support Taiwan if ever attacked and risk a nuclear war, Relationships are not black and white.

Quote:

Oh, you mean like the Security and Order that Russia has imposed in Chechnya?

The Muslim world is trying to catch us in a double-standard (and call us hypocritical while doing it). On the one hand, they want us to come down on non-Islamic governments that oppress people (Russia, China, Israel), but if we come down on Islamic governments that oppress people, we're ignorant infidels.




I dont think thats the beef. They dont want the USA entering Arab lands, Their culture is very different, In Iraq the people didnt even allow Saddam to quarter his soldiers in their homes, but its a tactic we use now and its earned us no friends, We support democracy as long as you vote someone in we like, IF hamas is voted in power or anything else against our agenda we declare them enemies. We have supported brutal arab regimes since Mossadegh.


Quote:

fact remains that Israel at no point in time decided to being deliberately killing Lebanese civilians. Can you imagine the death toll if they did? Easily in the hundreds of thousands.





Bullshit, Israel used EBO (effects based operations) to reach their intended goal and aim, To destroy Lebanese infrastructure so the Lebanese people are perputated into more civil war and chaos, This means targetting Roads,Electricity,Water,Hospitals. Valuable infrastructure that leads to direct consequences. Israel has only given more advantage to Hezbollah and other radicals and now Israel didnt complete its intended goal of disarmement so the whole region is a powder keg.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Questions for former CIA Chief of Bin Laden Counterterrorist Center [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #6093788 - 09/23/06 05:43 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Utter crap. The infrastructure was destroyed to prevent Hezbollah from using it.

The guy had absolutely no answers. None. Zip. Zero. Nada. All he said was to end our dependancy on Arab oil. Then we wouldn't be supporting the current leaders of their countries. Except we don't. We don't support Iran's leaders, we didn't support Iraq's thug, Egypt, Jordan and Syria don't have enough oil to spit about, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait are the only nations that actually fit his criteria and we're only there because Hussein invaded Kuwait. We'd like to support Lebanon's leaders if they had any.

Face it. These people are nut logs and have been for centuries


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OfflineTrepiodos
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Re: Questions for former CIA Chief of Bin Laden Counterterrorist Center [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6093823 - 09/23/06 05:57 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Our Mideast policy is a disaster. It does not serve the interests of the American people as a whole, only the well connected and the state of Israel. Of course it gives chicken hawks wood when their proxies destroy the lives and livelihoods of thousands of people not personally known to them and no threat to them. But this is merely a feel good exercise for those who watch Fox News with a box of tissue in one hand and a remote in the other hoping to keep their spluge from splashing on Sean Hannity's visage.

Instead of engaging moderates and marginalizing extremist, we are currently serving to 'mainstream' the extremists and marginalize the moderates. This is unwise. With 1.2 to 1.8 BILLION Muslims in the world, who have a higher birthrate than the average American or European it is only a matter of time until demographics and short-sighted foreign policy work to the long range detriment of our country.


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...

- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Questions for former CIA Chief of Bin Laden Counterterrorist Center [Re: Trepiodos]
    #6093853 - 09/23/06 06:05 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Trepiodos said:
Our Mideast policy is a disaster. It does not serve the interests of the American people as a whole, only the well connected and the state of Israel. Of course it gives chicken hawks wood when their proxies destroy the lives and livelihoods of thousands of people not personally known to them and no threat to them. But this is merely a feel good exercise for those who watch Fox News with a box of tissue in one hand and a remote in the other hoping to keep their spluge from splashing on Sean Hannity's visage.

Instead of engaging moderates and marginalizing extremist, we are currently serving to 'mainstream' the extremists and marginalize the moderates. This is unwise. With 1.2 to 1.8 BILLION Muslims in the world, who have a higher birthrate than the average American or European it is only a matter of time until demographics and short-sighted foreign policy work to the long range detriment of our country.




I eagerly await your conversion announcement and fervently hope that I will be invited to the ceremony. Just so I can tell all assembled that only retards believe in god. I fully expect that my head will be chopped off by some troglodyte but since it's coming anyway I may as well go out in a blaze of glory. Bow down, Dhimmi, and receive your swordly sacrament.


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OfflineTrepiodos
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Re: Questions for former CIA Chief of Bin Laden Counterterrorist Center [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6094327 - 09/23/06 09:01 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

To what bit of irrationality do we owe your ignorant little rant? Do you assume that since you scrape your belly on the ground to swallow the emissions of George Bush with religious fervor, that somehow I and others will automatically become servile to the Islamic bogeymen that you cower from behind a mask of bravado?

Your puerile displays add nothing to civil discourse and only serve to make your positions appear to be borne upon a framework of blind emotional reactions instead of intelligent contemplation. Should you offer civil debate based upon solid premises and offer carefully chosen conclusions, others (myself included) could be persuaded by such rationality. As it stands, you offer little of substance in the arena of political debate and prompt others to easily dismiss you as merely being a petulant loud mouth.

Please attempt to conduct yourself in a manner befitting a civilized, open-minded individual. Even though it would be a facade, it would be preferable to what we are presented with repeatedly.

Thank You.


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...

- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'

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