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The mystery of DNA
    #13589878 -

DNA consists out of the molecules T G C A, which in turn consist out of H N C O. Water, Fire, Earth, Air. The 4 elements.

DNA is written as a language, with sentences, words, paragraphs, punctuation, and it is fractally encoded, very much like a "zip-file" on a computer. If DNA is written, who is the writer?

So science discovers, that each cell contains an entire book, full of information about creation written in an unknown language, but it's a language nonetheless, yet they never stood still and thought that maybe someone might have written the language? So what is wrong with scientists, are they all extremely stupid or what? I mean, seriously. The very definition of a language is to communicate, the very definition of communication is interaction between intelligence. How can scientists not see the intelligence behind DNA?

Science claims DNA is randomly generated. But can you randomly generate a work of William Shakespeare? Humans are tiny bit more complex than a book tho. Imagine finding a book on the moon. And then science would claim, the book was randomly generated, and it was not written by an intelligence. This is exactly what science is claiming about DNA. We discover DNA as a coherent, foreign language, put together in words, sentences, paragraphes, chapters and then in books, and the nwe go claim this was all random generation? Random mutation???


So what the hell is wrong with scientists? How can they, out of all people, be so extremely blind? If you have a book, there is obviously an author, as simply as that. Or did the book write itself? How would that work? But even if the book would write itself, the book would still be written.. you see, there is no escape from the fact that there is an intelligence behind the writing no matter how you put it. It would be like claiming this post would be randomly generated and was not written by an intelligence behind it.

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Re: The mystery of DNA [Re: Diaboleros]
    #13589899 -

But can you randomly generate a work of William Shakespeare?

If I understood it correctly that is exactly what Diploid showed in his thread on Pi. You can randomly generate a work of WS. and much much more.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The mystery of DNA [Re: Icelander]
    #13589964 -

How would you verify the randomly generated work to be the work of shakespear? You would already need to work of shakespear in your possession in order to verify it.


Random generating the word NO
ID
DZ
ZE
DZ
DJ
IE
JF
NU
DU
NO
ohhh stop there we have it! it's the word no!

I hope you see, that there needs to be an intelligence that syas "oh here it is, the word no! now we can stop randomly generating" But if that intelligence already knows what the word "no" looks like, what is the point in randomly generating it in the first place?

If true randomness exists, why can't computers randomly generate anything at all? All random in the computer world is psuedorandom. Random generators are based on extensive mathematical, but predictable, formulas, which are seeded to create a different result each time. But they are not random. The closest thing to random generation in computer science, is attaching an external device that generates randomness based on atomic decay. Which is again only random because we don't understand the process behind the atomic decay, we can't predict it.

Everything has a cause, everything has an effect, true randomness does not exist. Yet this is the very explanation of science how DNA came to be.

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Re: The mystery of DNA [Re: Diaboleros]
    #13589978 -

I disagree completely... with everything you say.

It's a chemical language, written on its own. It's just chemistry.

Quote:
yet they never stood still and thought that maybe someone might have written the language?


The Author of the DNA Book

Quote:
How can scientists not see the intelligence behind DNA?


It's called evolution. Many scientists believe in it. Survival of the fittest, sexual reproduction, etc.

Quote:
But can you randomly generate a work of William Shakespeare?


Yes. An infinite number of monkeys rolling their face on a keyboard for and infinite amount of time will produce an exact copy of any book. DNA has actually worked in a similar manner.

Quote:
Imagine finding a book on the moon. And then science would claim, the book was randomly generated, and it was not written by an intelligence.


I don't even see how you can say this...

Quote:
We discover DNA as a coherent, foreign language, put together in words, sentences, paragraphes, chapters and then in books, and the nwe go claim this was all random generation?


Not exactly random, nothing is random. But, yes, and it's actually quite beautiful.

Quote:
If you have a book, there is obviously an author, as simply as that. Or did the book write itself?


The book did write itself.


--------------------
You wanna get high? Drink tap water.
--------------------

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Re: The mystery of DNA [Re: Diaboleros]
    #13589988 -

Diaboleros said:
How would you verify the randomly generated work to be the work of shakespear? You would already need to work of shakespear in your possession in order to verify it.


Random generating the word NO
ID
DZ
ZE
DZ
DJ
IE
JF
NU
DU
NO
ohhh stop there we have it! it's the word no!

I hope you see, that there needs to be an intelligence that syas "oh here it is, the word no! now we can stop randomly generating" But if that intelligence already knows what the word "no" looks like, what is the point in randomly generating it in the first place?

If true randomness exists, why can't computers randomly generate anything at all? All random in the computer world is psuedorandom. Random generators are based on extensive mathematical, but predictable, formulas, which are seeded to create a different result each time. But they are not random. The closest thing to random generation in computer science, is attaching an external device that generates randomness based on atomic decay. Which is again only random because we don't understand the process behind the atomic decay, we can't predict it.

Everything has a cause, everything has an effect, true randomness does not exist. Yet this is the very explanation of science how DNA came to be.



This is not my area of expertise. Ask Diploid or check out his thread.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The mystery of DNA [Re: The Phleg]
    #13589993 -

I'd like to add that a few years ago, I was in the same place as you in trying to "figure it all out"


--------------------
You wanna get high? Drink tap water.
--------------------

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Re: The mystery of DNA [Re: The Phleg]
    #13590008 -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1prZPo4OCL0


--------------------
You wanna get high? Drink tap water.
--------------------

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Re: The mystery of DNA [Re: The Phleg]
    #13590013 -

Sad to see you gave up on your quest and just decided to copy the obviously uncomplete theory that our current science is offering right now. What is the point repeating that which science has already said 1000 times? Isn't it time we start exploring new avenues to unravel this mystery? Spamming the same answer to this question over and over, isn't going to solve the mystery.

Randomness doesn't exist, and at the same time you claim DNA happened through random mutation. Where is the logic behind this?

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Re: The mystery of DNA [Re: Diaboleros]
    #13590032 -

Diaboleros said:
Sad to see you gave up on your quest and just decided to copy the obviously uncomplete theory that our current science is offering right now.


I didn't give up. I think your theories are more obviously incomplete than any I've heard in college. Do you want people to go around not believing anything unless they prove it to be true, for there is no other way of truly knowing something is true just by what some intelligent, respected, elderly, more experienced person says to be true?

Quote:
What is the point repeating that which science has already said 1000 times?


It's the most correct thing we know.

Quote:
Spamming the same answer to this question over and over, isn't going to solve the mystery.


To me, it sounds like you don't want an answer unless you can prove it yourself.

Quote:
Randomness doesn't exist, and at the same time you claim DNA happened through random mutation. Where is the logic behind this?


I never said anything random was involved.


--------------------
You wanna get high? Drink tap water.
--------------------

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Re: The mystery of DNA [Re: The Phleg]
    #13590076 -

Yes you did, you said you agreed with science. Maybe you don't realize what you are agreeing with?

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Re: The mystery of DNA [Re: Diaboleros]
    #13590142 -

Awesome, I haven't looked at it this way. It really is like some basic code, which just exists and
there's nothing you can do about it but keep it going...I don't think there's creator to it. I believe it's creation
of itself & became DNA as we know it in chaos of particles, which is always happening, nothing is 100% predictable.
It would be quite pointless to live if it would be predicted already, don't you think?
So.. in chaos of chemistry everything physical is possible, why not DNA of living organism/bacteria?
It's like happening by its own and best solution stays making larger scale chaos.:shineon:

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Re: The mystery of DNA [Re: HeartAndMind]
    #13590231 -

Ok true, it could just be, put together, by accident. But then how would you explain that evolution happens in jumps and we can't find the missing links? This is a pretty good indication, that species are created and didn't evolve.
http://telicthoughts.com/darwins-theory-of-gradual-evolution-not-supported-by-geological-history/

Can you honestly, imagine, the evolution of a fish into a bird, through natural selection and random mutation? How exactly would this work? Try explaing this one.. I'm all ears!

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Re: The mystery of DNA [Re: Diaboleros]
    #13590498 -

Diaboleros said:
DNA consists out of the molecules T G C A, which in turn consist out of H N C O. Water, Fire, Earth, Air. The 4 elements.


Call it whatever you want, but it seems arbitrary to call TGCA Water, Fire Earth, Air and HNCO

Quote:
DNA is written as a language, with sentences, words, paragraphs, punctuation, and it is fractally encoded, very much like a "zip-file" on a computer. If DNA is written, who is the writer?


Fractally encoded?  What do you mean?  Doesn't seem that way to me.

Quote:
maybe someone might have written the language? So what is wrong with scientists, are they all extremely stupid or what?


?  It has been thought since antiquity that there is an author- god.  That this isn't a scientific hypothesis means its not of particular interest to scientific investigation.  Don't confuse the two.

Quote:
I mean, seriously. The very definition of a language is to communicate, the very definition of communication is interaction between intelligence. How can scientists not see the intelligence behind DNA?


I don't think anyone doubts this.  The question is whether a sentient entity is required for the production of an intelligent system.  I don't think so.


Quote:
Science claims DNA is randomly generated. But can you randomly generate a work of William Shakespeare?


Sceince does not claim DNA is randomly generated.  Mutations are more-or-less random in general.  Don't confuse this with DNA or the genome being random- such is not at all the case and great amounts of cellular enrgy and machinary are devoted to fighting this tendancy towards disorder, random.


Quote:
Humans are tiny bit more complex than a book tho. Imagine finding a book on the moon. And then science would claim, the book was randomly generated, and it was not written by an intelligence. This is exactly what science is claiming about DNA.


Why would we claim it was randomly generated?  Science doesn't particularly care what "reality" is, but rather what we can discover about our world to make useful predictions and discoveries.  Given that there is no testable, falsifiable hypothesis that has been proffered for the premise that life was created by god or a sentient 'author', its not really scientificially considered.  If you can find support for such a hypothesis, it would be revolutionary, go for it.  Don't confuse the lack of invesigations targeted at the uninvestigatable for a belief that such is "false" or "not real".  These two things are of no concern to science by themselves.

Quote:
So what the hell is wrong with scientists? How can they, out of all people, be so extremely blind? If you have a book, there is obviously an author, as simply as that. Or did the book write itself?


Why is their obviously an author?  If you can propose a testable falsifiable scientific hypothesis and demonstrate some positive evidence for it, then there would be many people that would love to consider it.  The problem is not that the conclusion is verboten but that there is no scientific evidence nor utility thus far known that leads to said conclusion.

Remember: science is more a process and a utility rather an attempt to describe how things "really are".  There is no problem with bieng a scientist and believing in generic creationism of the type you discuss.

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Re: The mystery of DNA [Re: Diaboleros]
    #13590551 -

There still happens evolution among species, like
different species adopt to eachother, and there's organ in human body that used to digest roots but now isn't working.
But yea, Darwin described it too roughtly imo. I think it's like, starting from basic life, there was that orgunelle
which multiplyed in thousands of others and each lifeform by its own survived by adopting and recieving information from
around, so in evolving of further generations there was growing difference and each group of forms moved in different
directions...
Like human from city can't live in jungle and vice versa...and in million years difference between two would make them two
different species. But yeah, I don't know for sure.

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Re: The mystery of DNA [Re: johnm214]
    #13590568 -

I'm not even going to look into this. I understand what you're saying, and I am generally quite open minded. But it is clear that you have zero understanding of the theory of evolution and abiogenesis.

The DNA in the sheer complexity of a common organism (animal, plant, etc), can NOT just spring into existence randomly. Which, NEITHER of the two implies. There's much more to it than that, if you will do the research.

I'm not saying either are true, I'm not saying you are false. I don't know. I'm saying please, please research ideas and theories thoroughly before attempting to refute them.

Edit:
Ah, I should have read the description for this board. I did not, how embarrassing. So for that, I apologize. Feel free to ignore this post, if you would like to :wink:

Edited by Unison (12/06/10 01:37 PM)

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Re: The mystery of DNA [Re: johnm214]
    #13590774 -

The fact science, or anyone I have ever talked to, cannot show me one single proof of a trans-species evolution, means, that evolution theory doesn't make sense.  The burden of the proof is on the claimant. That is the scientific method.  Also, random does not exist, but the evolution theory includes "random mutations". How fucking scientific is that?

Evolution theory is full of logical flaws, and apparently I'm the only one who sees this? There isn't even any geoligcal evidence to back up the evolution theory!

There is no proof of a fish evolving into a bird.. yet we all accept this theory. We have no physical evidence, but we all jump on the bandwagon because "science said so". Well guess what, tomorrow, the evolution theory will be changed for sure. It is obviously incomplete.. trying to defend it is pointles. Too bad this world insists on repeating "what science said" x 1000, and refuses to apply their own logical thinking to the subject. Say meeeeeeh


here's a link showing DNA is fractal: http://www.dhushara.com/book/evol/noisy/junk.htm

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Re: The mystery of DNA [Re: Diaboleros]
    #13590809 -

It has nothing to do with a fish evolving into a bird.

The time it takes for even the simplest change to occur, is a length of time that you simply cannot fathom.

It's so slow, that were you to actually live for that length of time, and had the opportunity to observe it, you would NOT notice ANY change in the species, whatsoever.

I really do not care what the current science is. All my beliefs are something I have put great amounts of thought into. This does NOT make them true, and I do look for any opportunity to find that my beliefs are incorrect. That's how you grow as an individual.

But, again, evolution is an extremely slow process, and it's so slow, that there's no possible way you can fathom the length of time required for a slight change.

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Re: The mystery of DNA [Re: Unison]
    #13590868 -

You honestly believe, it is possible for a lizard, to magically evovle into a lizard that can change its skin color at will? How exactly will natural selection take care of that? You say, evolution is a very slow process, so it would be virtually impossible to be so lucky, that so many random mutations occur, after eachother, and that out of these random mutations, just like that, a lizard is created who can change it's skin at will. By the time, you have enough random mutations for this event to occur, the lizard will already be extinct.

This explanation is even way more farfetched than intelligent design. Yet this is what we all believe in. Chameleons came into existence through random mutations. Yes that's right, the complicated mechanism to change skin color, which our science can not even duplicate yet, came into existence, through random mutations.

There is no such thing as random, every effect has a cause, every cause has an effect. This is basic logic, and the evolution theory is going against this. Random can only seem random, when we cannot understand the cause.

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Re: The mystery of DNA [Re: Diaboleros]
    #13590888 -

You think it is, because you have spent no time looking into it. I'm not telling you to believe it, because that's useless. I'm just telling you to look into it, before refuting it.

Quote:
You honestly believe, it is possible for a lizard, to magically evovle into a lizard that can change its skin color at will?



Nope. That is most certainly impossible.

By assuming that's what I am referring to, shows me that you have no understanding for the theory, whatsoever.

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Re: The mystery of DNA [Re: Unison]
    #13590934 -

Ok how do you explain a chameleon evolving into existence?

And yes I have looked into the theory, what makes you think I haven't?

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