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Universe without God vs. universe with God * 1
    #12871598 -

This is how I see it

If this is a universe without God, we are simply the aftermath of something that happened in the past

If this is a universe with God, we are also the beforemath of something we are to become in the future. We aren't just emerging from one point in the past, we are also being drawn to another point in the future. If we are being drawn to something, the way things exist now must exist in a certain way so that we can reach that state. Think about it this way:

Without God, we are an electron and the beginning is a negative force. Our electron started out in the center of the negative force and was repelled outward into open air to float around chaotically.

With God, there is also a positive force that is pulling us. Though the path seems chaotic at first, we eventually realize that there is something that our electron is being drawn to. The electron moves from negative to positive and can travel many different paths to get there, but is always traveling a path that brings us to that positive force.

In this way, God is not a conscious being, but a natural force that keeps our existence in line.


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The creation takes hand of the chisel...

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Re: Universe without God vs. universe with God [Re: AngryPhil]
    #12871608 -

Agreed......God is like a Mandelbrot Fractal.

The edges of the mandelbrot will always take the same shape.
Almost the shape of a buddha.

But the inner tendrils stretching out to infinity, can have freedom to evolve any way they please.  While still staying true to the "main shape"

If we are to believe that the universe is a gigantic fractal, which theres tons of evidence for.  Then we must also assume that we are just the "tendrils" that are allowed to evolve with a degree of freedom, while being drawn to the strange attractor/omega point.
BUT
The "main shape" or Omega point, is always the same.
Just as in the mandelbrot.

So the Universe knows where its headed.
The end is already programmed into the equation.
We are just the pretty details/tendrils evolving towards that end.


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z -> z*z + c  = GOD

“Your denial is beneath you, and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs, I see through you.”

MUSHROOMS ARE IN SYMBIOTIC EVOLUTION WITH HUMANS.
JUST LIKE ORCHIDS MIMIC THE BEES THAT POLLINATE THEM, MUSHROOMS MIMIC VARIOUS HUMAN ANATOMY.  THEY ARE OUR EVOLUTIONARY BIRTHRIGHT!! 


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Re: Universe without God vs. universe with God [Re: Holoverse]
    #12871655 -

Sweet.  Fractals blow my effin mind, and so did this thread! :grin::thumbup:


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"There was a time when I could not find, the spirit of God BEYOND the mind.  In retrospect the intellect is blind, it makes me think that I'm, the reason for all that's mine, even this rhyme I'm inclined to believe is from me, instead of being received. This is how we're deceived.  How am I more than dust? when it's your love that animates us?  Forever I will trust. Your love is better than lust. You. Live. Forever In Us." KRS ONE

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Re: Universe without God vs. universe with God [Re: AngryPhil]
    #12871709 -

Why do you insist on calling it god? When god is traditionally associated with religions that reflect mans own image.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Universe without God vs. universe with God [Re: Icelander]
    #12871712 -

because I want to


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The creation takes hand of the chisel...

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Re: Universe without God vs. universe with God [Re: AngryPhil]
    #12871744 -

Well as long as you've explained your rational. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Universe without God vs. universe with God [Re: Icelander]
    #12871778 -

I use 'God' to speak to a target audience that understands God in a similar way that I do
You don't seem like one of those people, so you are not in my target audience when I talk about God
I try to explain God in sensible ways that will increase my target audience, but you seem entirely resistant to that


--------------------
The creation takes hand of the chisel...

Edited by AngryPhil (07/09/10 12:15 PM)

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Re: Universe without God vs. universe with God [Re: Icelander]
    #12871795 -

I thought his post explained his intended meaning behind the use of the word "God" quite well.  The big bearded dude in the sky is but one of many emanations of Ja, YHWH, Allah, Brahman, etc etc, brought about by the Jehovist jews as opposed to the Elohimist* sects whose God was both male and female and represented the ALL of everything.

God is a good word to use as long as both presenter and beholder understand its manifold nature.  The word means so many things to so many people that to say it "traditionally reflects man's image" does a great disservice to the followers of so many faiths besides the traditional, exoteric Judeo-Christian ideologies.  One would be better suited asking "what is your idea of God?" than dismissing one's use of the word.  It certainly is ambiguous, like "art" or "love," but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be used.

*Elohimist may not be the right word but it distinguishes followers of Elohim from those of Jehovah, the one presented as a male figure.


--------------------
"There was a time when I could not find, the spirit of God BEYOND the mind.  In retrospect the intellect is blind, it makes me think that I'm, the reason for all that's mine, even this rhyme I'm inclined to believe is from me, instead of being received. This is how we're deceived.  How am I more than dust? when it's your love that animates us?  Forever I will trust. Your love is better than lust. You. Live. Forever In Us." KRS ONE

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Re: Universe without God vs. universe with God [Re: Boozerguyzer]
    #12871803 -

Quote:
Why do you insist on calling it god? When god is traditionally associated with religions that reflect mans own image.


In maybe like 10% of all religions.
The rest describe god as all, infinity, emptiness, or chaos, not anything remotely human.



--------------------
z -> z*z + c  = GOD

“Your denial is beneath you, and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs, I see through you.”

MUSHROOMS ARE IN SYMBIOTIC EVOLUTION WITH HUMANS.
JUST LIKE ORCHIDS MIMIC THE BEES THAT POLLINATE THEM, MUSHROOMS MIMIC VARIOUS HUMAN ANATOMY.  THEY ARE OUR EVOLUTIONARY BIRTHRIGHT!! 


Edited by Holoverse (07/09/10 12:15 PM)

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Re: Universe without God vs. universe with God [Re: Boozerguyzer]
    #12871812 -

God is a good word to use as long as both presenter and beholder understand its manifold nature.

This is rarely the case unless you are talking to people who you know.

Just the fact that in most all of his posting he gives god a male gender speaks volumes imo. It's very hard to get the traditional ideas of god out of the subconscious imo. That's why I suggest a new term be used.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (07/09/10 12:24 PM)

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Re: Universe without God vs. universe with God [Re: Icelander]
    #12871842 -

As a pronoun for God, I prefer to use 'he' rather than 'she' or 'it'
partly because of what has been ingrained in my head by society
I don't see why that's so significant to you
it all comes down to preference

what new pronoun do you propose I use?


--------------------
The creation takes hand of the chisel...

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Re: Universe without God vs. universe with God [Re: AngryPhil]
    #12872008 -

partly because of what has been ingrained in my head by society

Exactly, and why I think it's hard to let go of subconscious connections to our early indoctrination to a religion or other cultural ideas of a personal god.

As to another word how about Tao? It's always worked for me. It's completely impersonal.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Universe without God vs. universe with God [Re: Icelander]
    #12872127 -

I think it's a cheap shot to say he is anthropomorphizing God by using he. Although I stray away from it, some people are just so used to using he for everything here in the West.

Here we go... back to subjectivity. You are projecting your life-time acquired negative connotations onto the word 'God.' For me, God is what is indescribable within language. You could use Brahman, Emptiness or the Way - but these are misnomers too. God may be Emptiness, but it is also all that is manifest. God may be the Way, but it is also not the Way. :laugh:

I suppose we are left with, the One nature in all things which we are apart of. Perhaps Buddha nature is the closest we can come to within language.

Cool ideas in the OBE and subsequent posts - The idea with fractals and tendrils rung true for me.

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Re: Universe without God vs. universe with God [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #12872145 -

How about "Universal Creator(s)"

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Re: Universe without God vs. universe with God [Re: BiG_StroOnZ]
    #12872157 -

For me, creator implies someone doing the creating.

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Re: Universe without God vs. universe with God [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #12872173 -

That's why I like "Tao" No creator just creation itself.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Universe without God vs. universe with God [Re: Icelander]
    #12872368 -

Icelander said:
That's why I like "Tao" No creator just creation itself.


Would you say that the creation is the creator?
If so, and the creation and creator are one and the same
you can still, when analyzing, separate the creation aspects from the creator aspects
just like you can separate the wave aspects of light from the particle aspects of light, when really light is both/neither/somethingelse


--------------------
The creation takes hand of the chisel...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Universe without God vs. universe with God [Re: AngryPhil]
    #12872379 -

I don't presume to know what creation is but I can witness something.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Universe without God vs. universe with God [Re: Icelander]
    #12872648 -

Have you read the book The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy or seen the movie? Gives you the macrocosm of "creation"

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Re: Universe without God vs. universe with God [Re: BiG_StroOnZ]
    #12872652 -

Yeah, fun stuff.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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