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single-payer shot down
    #11155196 -

Yup, in the Senate. It's nice to know our elected officials have the lobbyists, insurance companies, big pharma, and the like in their thoughts. Colbert RIPPED on them tonight. Him and John Stewart are becoming more cynical and quip lately with all this corporate take-over BS. Maybe Prisoner1 is right, we need our guns so we can shoot these crooks. The mushrooms rekindled my love for this country in spite of it's drug policy. and now these fucks are taking it away again. These fucking bought out slime that our dumb population elect!
The Gov is a Ponze scheme anyway. We pay our (low) taxes and get little out but rich bureaucrats, and failing welfare and health care, a giant army spread throughout the world. Hell, we can't even keep crime down! Damn, I wanna go to Europe, live there. It's at least slightly better in Germany, maybe England. Not here though. Congress gets another chance to appeal to us after the Republicans ROYALLY fucked the country after the Dems didn't oversee Mae and Mac. What are we doing? Letting Sean Hannity, and the Fox trash call up "Tea Parties", which are nothing compared to the original. I mean, at least the old one was civil disobedience with symbolism, nit sixty thousand fat, old pieces of trash who don't even know what they are protesting. You want your government back? Well, that's a vague request Oldy McHighbloodsuger.

Well, when you treat corporations like people, people as faceless numbers, and abstract values on a computer as money, this is what happens. When any lick of government control over money or health care, any extra penny in tax is a fist in the ass, this is where we come to. When big corporations can make commercials claiming to be speaking for the people in a country where the sole, legal purpose of a corporation is with the shareholders, this is WHAT HAPPENS. When MONEY=FREE SPEECH THIS IS WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENS.
I was feeling patriotic too, maybe it was the NCIS, but I thought we were being like the phoenix rising from the ashes of a dumb hick Texan, but we still have the same babies in power who want more money and ideals controlling over what would work. So the gov would grow a little? THE POINT IS, WE WILL ALL BE ABLE TO GET SICK. I don't have insurance now, it ran out when I hit 18!

Why don't we look at the best healthcare like France, and copy COPY COPY like the founding fathers did when they said the leaders must be accountable to the people from the Magna Carta.

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Re: single-payer shot down [Re: doom876]
    #11155240 -

only in one of the 5 health bills right now. 3 of the remaining 4 bills have a public option; there will be some form of a public option in the final bill the president signs.


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Re: single-payer shot down [Re: doom876]
    #11155257 -

look at you all high and mighty ranting about free speech again, when it's clear you don't want to hear anyone's opinion that doesn't agree with your own.

btw i'm sorry you feel so upset about the health insurance debate. in the mean time, there are MANY options for getting low cost health care that don't rely on the health care overhaul. a lot of people without health insurance just have issues with them because they want free handouts.

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Re: single-payer shot down [Re: JT]
    #11155262 -

even after all this time i can't stop looking at your avatar


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Re: single-payer shot down [Re: doom876]
    #11155733 -

Get a job, pay premiums like the rest of us. If you really want to do something about it run for office.


--------------------
The story goes, or the way that I was told
There was a king that always felt too high and then he fell too low
And so he called all the wise men to the hall
And begged them for a gift to end the rises and the falls
But here’s the thing, they came back with a ring
It was simple and was plainly unbefitting of a king
Engraved in black, it had no front or back
But there were words around the band that said
Just know: This Too Shall Pass


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Re: single-payer shot down [Re: NobodyCares]
    #11155752 -

NobodyCares said:
Get a job, pay premiums like the rest of us. If you really want to do something about it run for office.


A lot of jobs don't provide people with healthcare.


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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Re: single-payer shot down [Re: doom876]
    #11156357 -

Single payer wasn't shot down because it was never on the table.  What was shot down was the public option, the one part of the bill that could actually bring costs down.  It still has a chance, and I'm still holding out for it.  But if we don't have something like a public option, then we'll have nothing left but a giveaway to the health insurance industry.


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Re: single-payer shot down [Re: Silversoul]
    #11156562 -

Silversoul, you're very knowledgeable about this issue and I have learned alot from your posts.

I hear about these gross profits that insurance companies are making, but when I look online it appears their profit margin is only 2-5%.  That's not alot.  What say you, are these numbers incorrect, should they have a smaller profit margin?  For 2-5% we can get beneficial competition - that sounds better than a 0% profit system with no competition.

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Re: single-payer shot down [Re: DieCommie]
    #11156627 -

Yes, public option. Bad wording
(the option where the gov pays), sorry. Still, dems voted it off in the senate, an it's a bad omen, I think. Of course the house could re-edit it and send it back for another vote later on. My god our government is slow.

look at you all high and mighty ranting about free speech again, when it's clear you don't want to hear anyone's opinion that doesn't agree with your own.
I'd like to hear other ideas, I do hear them, but it's like liatening to ten tones of crap and only hearing a few good points or ideas. Think about it like pot laew, our side is the only one with any valid ideas, but the people who say "it'll cost more from crime" "what will it say to the children" get heard because big special interests with money that is considered more free spech gives them more say, by definition, then people without a hundred million dollar budget(fuck you DuPont!)


We should be yelling "why have our premiums gone up when you are making millions in PROFIT. Why are we advocating a system where to maximize profit you must lead someone on untill they get sick, then snatch it away!"

Edited by doom876 (09/30/09 11:58 AM)

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Re: single-payer shot down [Re: DieCommie]
    #11156628 -

DieCommie said:
Silversoul, you're very knowledgeable about this issue and I have learned alot from your posts.

I hear about these gross profits that insurance companies are making, but when I look online it appears their profit margin is only 2-5%.  That's not alot.  What say you, are these numbers incorrect, should they have a smaller profit margin?  For 2-5% we can get beneficial competition - that sounds better than a 0% profit system with no competition.


Well, the 2-5% figure sounds suspicious to me, but even if that's the case, there's also the high administrative cost of screening people for pre-existing conditions.  Not every country that has universal coverage has a single-payer/public option kind of deal.  Those that don't, like Germany and Switzerland, have a system of regulated non-profits.  What is true of all countries with universal healthcare is that none of them treat basic care as a for-profit venture.


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Re: single-payer shot down [Re: Silversoul]
    #11156675 -

So would legislating against pre-screenings and dropping of policies in addition to subsidizing more of the lower income bracket people be sufficient?

Im very suspicious about the lack of competition behind a non-profit status.  (This is the reason why our public schools are crappy.)  Subsidizing the lower income people and regulating the industry sounds OK to me, but Im very wary of removing the competition aspect. 

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Re: single-payer shot down [Re: Silversoul]
    #11156724 -

Well, if England can do it, we should be able to. There is no rule that our government has to be incompetent, hell, there is no reason. If they could run a nice, clean public option like professionals, or if they could respond well to a crisis, people wouldn't...no, people would still be crying "socialism" like it's nineteen fifty nine. What has the gov done right? Well, we created the bomb. So there is proof they can do things!


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Fight for a large loving government that can take care of its people, kill our criminals, and preform the huge industrial tasks our corporate overlords refuse(wanna greenwash me some more Exon?)

Not this weak travesty that let millions starve and sucks corporate cock while failing at every turn.

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Re: single-payer shot down [Re: DieCommie]
    #11156730 -

DieCommie said:
So would legislating against pre-screenings and dropping of policies in addition to subsidizing more of the lower income bracket people be sufficient?


It would help, but one of the main things behind the high cost of healthcare is lack of competition.  Many health insurance companies have regional monopolies, and that leads to inefficient outcomes.

Quote:
Im very suspicious about the lack of competition behind a non-profit status.  (This is the reason why our public schools are crappy.)  Subsidizing the lower income people and regulating the industry sounds OK to me, but Im very wary of removing the competition aspect. 


There are several reasons why our public schools are crappy, and the fact that they're public isn't one of them(Europe has some excellent public schools).  And the whole point of the public option is to introduce competition, not get rid of it.


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Re: single-payer shot down [Re: Silversoul]
    #11156876 -

And the whole point of the public option is to introduce competition, not get rid of it.
Do we need competition in an unethical industry? We don't need profit from the sick like insurance companies do. What's wrong with just destroying the competition, ignoring the fasct that we are "capitalist" and doing the right thing "universal healthcare". If it cloggs the hospitals, it'd just be the poor who would otherwise be waiting in line hours for the crappy free clinic.


--------------------

Fight for a large loving government that can take care of its people, kill our criminals, and preform the huge industrial tasks our corporate overlords refuse(wanna greenwash me some more Exon?)

Not this weak travesty that let millions starve and sucks corporate cock while failing at every turn.

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Re: single-payer shot down [Re: doom876]
    #11156901 -

doom876 said:
(the option where the gov pays), sorry. Still, dems voted it off in the senate, an it's a bad omen, I think. Of course the house could re-edit it and send it back for another vote later on. My god our government is slow.


slow is an understatement lol, although if obama had his way it would have been rushed through without any debate.

Quote:
I'd like to hear other ideas, I do hear them, but it's like liatening to ten tones of crap and only hearing a few good points or ideas. Think about it like pot laew, our side is the only one with any valid ideas, but the people who say "it'll cost more from crime" "what will it say to the children" get heard because big special interests with money that is considered more free spech gives them more say, by definition, then people without a hundred million dollar budget(fuck you DuPont!)


i kind of get where you're going, but the scope and implications of health care reform are far more serious and will effect the lives of every single american no matter what. it's not cut and dry like pot, because the government won't be shoving pot down everyone's throat if it is legalized. it is GOOD that there is a lot of debate about the subject. when we rush things through congress, there tend to be mistakes or loopholes, and i think we can all agree that this is not something we want to fuck up.

and the pro-healthcare people have just as many if not more big companies lobbying for reforms, not to mention the majority of the main stream media
Quote:
We should be yelling "why have our premiums gone up when you are making millions in PROFIT. Why are we advocating a system where to maximize profit you must lead someone on untill they get sick, then snatch it away!"


many hospitals operate on a non-profit basis. the institutions that provide cutting-edge care need a profit margin in order to fund research and development and to give incentive for doctors to go through 10+ years of very difficult education. health insurance plans always cover basic doctor exams, which includes most preventive care like physicals and check ups. the only time you will see rates increase are if you have a huge claim...which is the same as any other type of insurance...

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Re: single-payer shot down [Re: JT]
    #11156934 -

. it is GOOD that there is a lot of debate about the subject.
It would be good if the debate was a "debate", not throwing feces, and not silly rhetoric about socialism and death panels. I know it effects us all, but the fact we aren't smart enough to comprehend it makes me not want the general public in the debate.

Welcome To America: A battlefield run by liberals and conservatives, trying to force us to choose sides and abandon what used to be called common sense.
I like that


--------------------

Fight for a large loving government that can take care of its people, kill our criminals, and preform the huge industrial tasks our corporate overlords refuse(wanna greenwash me some more Exon?)

Not this weak travesty that let millions starve and sucks corporate cock while failing at every turn.

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Re: single-payer shot down [Re: doom876]
    #11157014 -

Quote:
Europe has some excellent public schools


Yea, we have some excellent public schools too.  But most people are not allowed to attend them (my mom lied to get me into one).

The regional monopolies you mention certainly seem like a bad idea.  I dont understand how the public option would introduce competition.  You dont get a voucher that companies then compete to get from you do you?  We have a 'public option' system for schools right now right?  And there is basically no competition at all in lower education.

Also, Im still not convinced that the insurance companies are making too much profit.  Their profit margins seem much lower than many other corporations.

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Re: single-payer shot down [Re: doom876]
    #11157042 -

doom876 said:
We don't need profit from the sick like insurance companies do. What's wrong with just destroying the competition, ignoring the fasct that we are "capitalist" and doing the right thing "universal healthcare". If it cloggs the hospitals, it'd just be the poor who would otherwise be waiting in line hours for the crappy free clinic.


With regulation people need not profit from the sick, but rather profit from treating and caring for the sick.  If its profitable to heal people, then people will get healed.  Whats wrong with no competition is the fat never gets cut - useless employees don't get fired/laid off, departments don't get reorganized, innovations are slow to be embraced.  A non-profit could easily cost more and do less than a for profit simply from the added aspect of competition.

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Re: single-payer shot down [Re: DieCommie]
    #11157081 -

DieCommie said:
Quote:
Europe has some excellent public schools


Also, Im still not convinced that the insurance companies are making too much profit.  Their profit margins seem much lower than many other corporations.


i think you're right. health insurance is just expensive by nature.

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Re: single-payer shot down [Re: JT]
    #11157130 -


Yea, we have some excellent public schools too.  But most people are not allowed to attend them
It's probably a private school, or out of your area then.

With regulation people need not profit from the sick, but rather profit from treating and caring for the sick.  If its profitable to heal people, then people will get healed.  Whats wrong with no competition is the fat never gets cut - useless employees don't get fired/laid off, departments don't get reorganized, innovations are slow to be embraced.  A non-profit could easily cost more and do less than a for profit simply from the added aspect of competition.

With regulation we can make sure those that do well are rewarded. We don't need competition to do that. Competition is not always the way, as we think in the US. This is about insurance, so don't drag BS in. They are the middle men that tale one out ov every three dollars in health care. I'm all for rewarding good docs and dropping the bad, but that isn't what this is about. It's about people being denied coverage, being unable to pay for coverage, and a system that practically pays the insurance companies just for existing. Single payer, one middle man, cheaper prices, risk spread out as far as it can go. Common sense.


--------------------

Fight for a large loving government that can take care of its people, kill our criminals, and preform the huge industrial tasks our corporate overlords refuse(wanna greenwash me some more Exon?)

Not this weak travesty that let millions starve and sucks corporate cock while failing at every turn.

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