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WhiteBunny
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Registered: 07/29/05
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I hate car salesmen *update*
#5339136 - 02/25/06 08:27 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I went looking for a new whip today and felt like I was basically lied to the entire day about the price and what not. I'm looking for a simply reliable Honda accord that's like a 2001-02 for around 10,000-11,000 and I know there out there. I wish I could catch someone wanting to trade it in and offer them the cash and get it done without going through a dealer.
WB
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Edited by WhiteBunny (02/27/06 03:09 PM)
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Prisoner#1
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Registered: 01/22/03
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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: WhiteBunny]
#5339155 - 02/25/06 08:31 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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lesson 1 for used cars, people that trade in a car being financed are still making payments on the car, it's tacked on to the payments of the new one, keep i in mind because it's a price negotiaing point when you're buying. I picked up a 2001 honda accord for $10k at a dealer in 2002
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Liquid_Dimension
Lighthousekeeper



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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: WhiteBunny]
#5339162 - 02/25/06 08:33 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yea some are assholes,have you checked autotrader? there pretty good.Next time you go to a dealership...just look around and stuff and when a salesperson comes up and begins a convo just be like...oohhh I just stopped by randomly (like your not really interested) then out of nowhere give him the lowest bid you can afford and He'll be really surprised and probably go for it
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Konnrade
↑↑↓↓<--><-->BA



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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: WhiteBunny]
#5339167 - 02/25/06 08:34 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I've contemplated working as a car salesman. Dealerships will hire just about anyone when they're hiring salesmen. they hire more people than they need and just keep the ones that do the best. Even if you're a fucktard you get a brief period of bringing home paychecks.
And I know many of the tricks that car salesmen use, so I'd be starting off well. I'd hate myself inside, but I'd make up for it by rolling my outside across a pile of money.
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
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Prisoner#1
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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: Konnrade]
#5339253 - 02/25/06 08:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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my uncle has been selling cars for about 7 years, since he retired from the navy, he's set 3 records for the dealership, longest distance sale (shipped to hawaii), largest cash sale (the lincoln I boungt mom for her b-day) and largest fleet sale.
he still had to borrow money from me to take care of child support and a down payment on his house
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sparks8
general freak

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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: Konnrade]
#5339278 - 02/25/06 09:05 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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yea they are scum of the earth in my book. do your research before hand and it will help alot! learn the blue book value and ask them to get you a report on the car your looking at from carfax.com. mention every thing thats wrong with the car as negotiating points for a lower price, mention everything no matter how small. they will try to play it off but they know your right. go to all the diffrent places you can stand to and use thier cars for a test drive and go to diffrent dealers and look if they let you take it alone. when u pull up in a dealers car they know you are serious about buying something and will try to compete more. also dont buy anything until youve looked at it for a few days. definitely not on the same day you find it. also when you think youve found the one you want take it to a indipendent garage and have it checked out this may bring you more negotiation room. if the dont give you what you want, walk out, they will call you back. scum of the earth i tell you. good luck.
-------------------- buy the ticket, take the ride
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Prisoner#1
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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: sparks8]
#5339301 - 02/25/06 09:12 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
sparks8 said: learn the blue book value and ask them to get you a report on the car your looking at from carfax.com.
bluebook is shit, black book is what you want, learn to examine cars because often times things wont show up on carfax
http://www.blackbookusa.com/
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WhiteBunny
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Registered: 07/29/05
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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: Prisoner#1]
#5339306 - 02/25/06 09:13 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said: my uncle has been selling cars for about 7 years, since he retired from the navy, he's set 3 records for the dealership, longest distance sale (shipped to hawaii), largest cash sale (the lincoln I boungt mom for her b-day) and largest fleet sale.
he still had to borrow money from me to take care of child support and a down payment on his house
your a good man prisoner! My parents are too dependable so my aunt and uncle said they would give me 10k cash for a car so I get started out of college with a dependable car so we went looking today
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WhiteBunny
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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: Prisoner#1]
#5339311 - 02/25/06 09:14 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
sparks8 said: learn the blue book value and ask them to get you a report on the car your looking at from carfax.com.
bluebook is shit, black book is what you want, learn to examine cars because often times things wont show up on carfax
http://www.blackbookusa.com/
100% right prisoner blackbook tell what their in it for! Dad use to be a sells manager and the black book is almost always right on the $.
WB
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Konnrade
↑↑↓↓<--><-->BA



Registered: 09/13/05
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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: sparks8]
#5339314 - 02/25/06 09:15 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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It also helps to know how to deal with them, and what to look out for. Some tips courtesy of my automotive professor: ~If they mention anything about your cash back when you're haggling the price with them, tell them "no, I'll use that how I want to, don't mention it again." Manufacturer cash back is YOUR money from the manufacturer. It has nothing to do with the dealership. Say you saw a car for sale for 20k, and there was a 3k cashback. you tell them you'll pay 17k for it... if you don't keep an eye on them they'll say "sure thing!" and then use your money to lower the price, instead of actually lowering the price. ~Do NOT let them con you into haggling for monthly payment prices. They will try to get you to start haggling for payment amounts instead of the price of the car. This will not affect the price of the car, lower payments is likely to mean that they made your financing last longer, which actually costs you MORE money than a higher payent. Always insist on haggling ONLY the price of the car. ~Read every square inch of the contract before you sign the deal, they may have done something you did not want, and if you sign it it's tough shit for you when you find out what they did, because you consented to it. One major threat is if your financing status is "subject to approval". You may work out the details of a very nice deal with financing, but if it's subject to approval, the financing can be changed on a whim to just about anything by the financing company. They can call you up after you arranged a 200/month payment for x number of years at 0% interest, and tell you that instead you are going to pay them $300 a month for 2/3 of the original duration, and will do so at 3% financing. Watch that shit!
There were more, but those are the ones I remember the best.
Also, try to emasculate your salesman in every civilized way possible. Try and make them feel defeated enough not to pull shit with you. If they think you know what you're doing and that you will not tolerate any scheming, they're less likely to TRY scheming.
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
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Prisoner#1
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Registered: 01/22/03
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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: WhiteBunny]
#5339317 - 02/25/06 09:16 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I try to take care of friends and family, they've done it for me over the years and I have no qualms about doing for them, really it's my biggest shortcoming
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WhiteBunny
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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: WhiteBunny]
#5339323 - 02/25/06 09:19 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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since I would be paying cash I haven't been mentioning I would be paying cash hoping they bite on selling me the car a cheaper price than retail hoping to get me in the back-end (financing) and then when I get that quote in paper then buy it outright.
WB
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WhiteBunny
How deep doesthe rabbit hole go?


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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: Prisoner#1]
#5339330 - 02/25/06 09:20 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I agree I have cousins that are 5, 10 14 and older and would like to take car of them or surprise them with something fun when I am able to.
The aunt and uncle offered to pay for insurance for 3-6 month until I had some $ saved..their really good people
WB
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WhiteBunny
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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: WhiteBunny]
#5339335 - 02/25/06 09:23 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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prisoner I can't find how I get the trade in value of accords types 2000-2003 is it offered free from the site?
WB
P.S- sorry for the multi posts.
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Prisoner#1
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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: Konnrade]
#5339337 - 02/25/06 09:23 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Konnrade said: Manufacturer cash back is YOUR money from the manufacturer. It has nothing to do with the dealership.
read the fine print, all the dealers now have disclaimers thats state "dealer retains rebate" that money is just incentive to get you in the doors, it's not real and it has nothing to do with you.
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Prisoner#1
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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: WhiteBunny]
#5339345 - 02/25/06 09:26 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
WhiteBunny said: prisoner I can't find how I get the trade in value of accords types 2000-2003 is it offered free from the site?
hit a used car lot, look around in the office and pocket a copy or do like I did and subscribe for $82/year, I had 5 years on all of their publications
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WhiteBunny
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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: Prisoner#1]
#5339355 - 02/25/06 09:30 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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shit I wish I had $82 bucks to drop but I don't also want to swipe one...those things come out every week I think and some dealer should have a lot, they just wont want to give a customer one.
WB
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WhiteBunny
How deep doesthe rabbit hole go?


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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: WhiteBunny]
#5339360 - 02/25/06 09:31 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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how in the hell do you get a i year old car for only 10 k? Was it banged up or something?
WB
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Prisoner#1
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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: WhiteBunny]
#5339394 - 02/25/06 09:41 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
WhiteBunny said: shit I wish I had $82 bucks to drop but I don't also want to swipe one...those things come out every week I think and some dealer should have a lot, they just wont want to give a customer one.
the other option is dumpster diving, they throw out the old copies, those things pile up fast
Quote:
WhiteBunny said: how in the hell do you get a i year old car for only 10 k? Was it banged up or something?
the dealers story "owned by a soldier that was being shipped off, he just got married, had a kid and traded it on a family car" dude was upside down on his payments to start with, and like all dealers they 'pay off' your trade in, then tack that on the loan for the new car so buddy in the service was still paying for that one and his new one so why should I pay the $20k they were asking when he's already paying it.
the car was in immaculare condition, had an aftermarket radio, average milage and window tint, given that the milage was 12k the guy did a fair amount of driving for someone in the military, lie #1, heavy wear on the brake peddal suggested it was all city use or racing, an after arket radio suggests that there could be some introduced wiring problems especilay since there waere screw holes where it appeared an amp had been poorly mounted in the trunk
again, carfax doent cover the majority
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WhiteBunny
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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: Prisoner#1]
#5339403 - 02/25/06 09:43 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Did you have any problems with the car? I wish i could find that deal!
WB
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Prisoner#1
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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: Prisoner#1]
#5339405 - 02/25/06 09:44 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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oh yeah, do your own research, find the car you like, take it in their shop and put it on the lift, examine the underside for flaking paint on the frame, dents in the oil/trans pans and any signs that the car has been wrecked, pull up carpet and the lining in the trunk, that will tel you more than any shit from carfax
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Prisoner#1
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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: WhiteBunny]
#5339410 - 02/25/06 09:49 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
WhiteBunny said: Did you have any problems with the car? I wish i could find that deal!
WB
none, the install and removal was clean, no cut wires left behind, never wrecked and I didnt drive it long, I sold it a couple weeks later for $18000, that deal is available everywhere, you can do the same sort of thing with new cars, they knocked $10k off my truck, $9000 off the lincoln and sold a ranger for less than 'employee price' at $12000 for a GF of mine... simply set a price you're willing to pay, do not exceed it, when they start claiming they cant do that, say "thanks, I'll take my business somewhere that they can" they always catch me before I drive out of the lot to work out that deal.
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WhiteBunny
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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: Prisoner#1]
#5339421 - 02/25/06 09:56 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
WhiteBunny said: Did you have any problems with the car? I wish i could find that deal!
WB
none, the install and removal was clean, no cut wires left behind, never wrecked and I didn't drive it long, I sold it a couple weeks later for $18000, that deal is available everywhere, you can do the same sort of thing with new cars, they knocked $10k off my truck, $9000 off the lincoln and sold a ranger for less than 'employee price' at $12000 for a GF of mine... simply set a price you're willing to pay, do not exceed it, when they start claiming they cant do that, say "thanks, I'll take my business somewhere that they can" they always catch me before I drive out of the lot to work out that deal.
yeah I tried that I found an 2002 that is certified everything bumper to bumper for I think 13-14K and I am looking for something 10k out the door with tax tag and bullshit fees. I give them my cell # and they try to say they have some other shit car that I have no interest in what so ever.
WB
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WhiteBunny
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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: WhiteBunny]
#5339428 - 02/25/06 09:58 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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what motive do they have to sell less than they are in it for? My back up is my Girlfriends 17 brother old car that a 1999 accord which has 90k mile and they are asking like $6500 whihc I think is steep. He does know I am interested in it yet though.
WB
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Konnrade
↑↑↓↓<--><-->BA



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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: Prisoner#1]
#5339465 - 02/25/06 10:09 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
Konnrade said: Manufacturer cash back is YOUR money from the manufacturer. It has nothing to do with the dealership.
read the fine print, all the dealers now have disclaimers thats state "dealer retains rebate" that money is just incentive to get you in the doors, it's not real and it has nothing to do with you.
WHAT?! That's a dirty fucking scheme.
I'm going to go spend $300 on a nice katana and start lopping the heads off of dealership management and owners.
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: WhiteBunny]
#5339479 - 02/25/06 10:13 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
WhiteBunny said: yeah I tried that I found an 2002 that is certified everything bumper to bumper for I think 13-14K and I am looking for something 10k out the door with tax tag and bullshit fees. I give them my cell # and they try to say they have some other shit car that I have no interest in what so ever.
because to make money, you have to sell cars, dont give them your number, especialy your social security number, they'll run your credit while you're on a test drive and fuck you for interest if you're financing, when they say 'the best I can do is $14000" you say "I can go to XXXX dealer and get the same car for $10000, if you can beat it, I'll find someone that can, thanks for your time"
sales is a game, especialy in the car business
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Prisoner#1
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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: Konnrade]
#5339504 - 02/25/06 10:21 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Konnrade said: WHAT?! That's a dirty fucking scheme.
it's a dirty business, I dont see how car salesmen can look at themselves in the mirror without cutting their own throats in the morning
heres an example, read the ads for the three pictured jeeps
http://www.shopacar.com/jeepcityofcleveland/
more info on dealer scams
http://www.carbuyingtips.com/car4.htm
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supercollider
superconducting


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Loc: Waxahachie
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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: WhiteBunny]
#5339509 - 02/25/06 10:22 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Ladies, if you want a really good deal on your next car, you need to prepare properly. Wear very sexy underwear, possibly a red satin bra and panty set. Put a short skirt and a button down shirt over the underwear and set out for the showroom.
When you walk in the door notice which Sales Manager has to wipe the drool off of his chin first (if there is a tie, the one who drools the most wins). This man is your target. Make sure that you have a button open walk up to the target, lean over his desk and ask if there is someone around who would like to satisfy a customer. If the poor guy doesn?t have a heart attack, you?re halfway to a great deal.
==============================================================================
Swiped from my friend's humor site, www.egodriven.net
and on a more serious note, don't neglect cars.com and ebay motors.
-------------------- Supercollider? I just met her!
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rawtoxic
Stranger
Registered: 10/06/02
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i agree on mind fucking people.
find things wrong with the car. go through one of those certified used car checklists and point out everything wrong - this lowers value to a fair standards well most sellers tend to consider the condition of there vehicle better than it actual is.
patience is key for waiting for the right cars.
i have 1992 subaru turbo awd sedan i scored for $500 started at $3500 from the paper.
then i also bought a flatbed diesel truck from a dealership for $1000 cash after pointing out about 10 things wrong with it. and asking about taking it to a inspection shop. it was originally $3795 soap on the windshield.
private parties that have been trying to get rid of something for a while. a good trick is learn how long classified ads run (two weeks) most the time, wait for the ad to almost expire, now is the time for your low offer.
be creative, negotiating is easy and fun when your used to it. some assholes think there shit is worth too much or are too smart - don't deal with them.
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WhiteBunny
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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: rawtoxic]
#5345746 - 02/27/06 03:13 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I got a call form the Toyota dealership and she said they have a 2003 Toyota Camry with 45k miles for $10,500. I say "ok I will come by and take a look". I get there and she shows me a 2003 Toyota Corolla with 42000! I was fucking pissed! The search cont. I have a cheap back-up car. Can some tell me the legit value not the blue book value of a '99 Honda Accord EX with 90k mile w/ leather and a v6? It is from a person. Thanks
WB
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Edited by WhiteBunny (02/27/06 04:20 PM)
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KingOftheThing
the cool fool


Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: WhiteBunny]
#5346672 - 02/27/06 07:00 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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car salesmen get a bad fucking rap. we get lied to, cheated an stole from by customers sooo much more than we actually cheat them. customers going behind ur back to another salesman after u did all the work to try and get a better price. customers trading in cars with huge problems or trying to sneak in salvage titles. customers bleeding you of every cent of gross so you cant turn a buck to eat. customers taking bank approvals you worked hours to get to other dealerships.
here is another tip if you have good credit you will almost always get a good deal. if you have bad credit, the dealership has to take riisks getting you financed so because of those risks you will pay more. we will turn a bigger profit on credit roaches but we also have to watch charge backs, which dont affect me but does hurt our store.
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KingOftheThing
the cool fool


Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: WhiteBunny]
#5346694 - 02/27/06 07:06 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
WhiteBunny said: I got a call form the Toyota dealership and she said they have a 2003 Toyota Camry with 45k miles for $10,500. I say "ok I will come by and take a look". I get there and she shows me a 2003 Toyota Corolla with 42000! I was fucking pissed! The search cont. I have a cheap back-up car. Can some tell me the legit value not the blue book value of a '99 Honda Accord EX with 90k mile w/ leather and a v6? It is from a person. Thanks
WB
i am a car salesman ....is it a sedan or coupe?? these are values from auctions, which is what they look at, not kbb. i gots passwords to some sites...
actually sedan or coupe expect like $4800 - $5500 depending on the condition of the car, dents, interior rips, rust, scratches etc. if its in decent shape push for $5000.
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WhiteBunny
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Quote:
KingOftheThing said: here is another tip if you have good credit you will almost always get a good deal. if you have bad credit, the dealership has to take riisks getting you financed so because of those risks you will pay more. we will turn a bigger profit on credit roaches but we also have to watch charge backs, which dont affect me but does hurt our store.
But I am paying cash. So there is nothing to finance.
WB
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WhiteBunny
How deep doesthe rabbit hole go?


Registered: 07/29/05
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Quote:
KingOftheThing said:
Quote:
WhiteBunny said: I got a call form the Toyota dealership and she said they have a 2003 Toyota Camry with 45k miles for $10,500. I say "ok I will come by and take a look". I get there and she shows me a 2003 Toyota Corolla with 42000! I was fucking pissed! The search cont. I have a cheap back-up car. Can some tell me the legit value not the blue book value of a '99 Honda Accord EX with 90k mile w/ leather and a v6? It is from a person. Thanks
WB
i am a car salesman ....is it a sedan or coupe?? these are values from auctions, which is what they look at, not kbb. i gots passwords to some sites...
actually sedan or coupe expect like $4800 - $5500 depending on the condition of the car, dents, interior rips, rust, scratches etc. if its in decent shape push for $5000.
Excellent glad to have some inside advice. No chance you in the south huh? This dealership has 57 used Honda Accords so not like they are trying to get paid on the few they have.
ok here is what I am looking at and keep in mind all of these cars have been brought up to Honda certified to 100,000 miles. car 1. Accord '01 4 door LX 77,000 miles White...lets say clean condition
asking price $12,990
2. Accord '01 4 door LX 69,000 miles White...pretty much all of these cars are pretty clean so far I will inspect tomorrow.
asking price
3. Accord '01 4 door LX 80,000 miles White
asking price $12,990
4. Accord '01 4 door LX 62,000 miles Silver
asking price $12,990
5. Accord '01 4 door V-6 though LX 65,000 miles Silver
asking price $13,990
6. Same thing as 5 but 72,000 miles
7. Accord '00 4 door 50,ooo miles silver
asking $13,990
8.Same as 8 but 60,000 miles
9.same as 8 but 70k mile
10.same but 64k miles
11.accord EX 4 door v-6 95,000 miles asking 11,990
I can get 11. from a person but the person's car has leather and only 90,000 for 7,000.
the 2002 Accords they are asking anywhere from 15,000 to 18,000...I mean you can buy a bottom of the line 2006 for 19,000.
So here is what I am thinking... to go tomorrow to the dealership and make a offer for a 2001 4 door v-6 accord with 62,000 that is in clean condition. Keep in mind their asking price is $13,990 I think their in the car for about $8,300 and offer them $9400 for the car. I mean I know they have to make some profit and a commission for the sales guy. I would do this right off the Bat and tell the salesman you can make this commission check fast and easy or so no and I will leave. Tax in Florida is 6% for a car and that's $564 in tax and almost $200 for the tag. That bring the total to $10,164 which is right below the 10,500 maximum limit I can spend. What do you guys think?
KingOftheThing what do you think is this a fair offer ? I haven't been using kelley blue book now I use edmonds...do you think it's a good source.
WB
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Edited by WhiteBunny (02/27/06 07:58 PM)
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Liz
Owl Lady



Registered: 11/16/04
Posts: 6,962
Loc: Massachusetts
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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: WhiteBunny]
#5346988 - 02/27/06 08:15 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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if you wind up getting a car for a great price, like, great to the point where it's lowering the car salesman's commission, it wouldbe generous of you to slip him like $100 or so. I've done that before, everyone has to make money.
-------------------- Remember, remember the fifth of November The gunpowder treason and plot. I see no reason why gunpowder treason Should ever be forgot.
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RESTLESS
C.M.L.W.

Registered: 06/21/05
Posts: 21,817
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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: Liz]
#5346994 - 02/27/06 08:16 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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WhiteBunny
How deep doesthe rabbit hole go?


Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 1,351
Loc: Earth
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: RESTLESS]
#5346997 - 02/27/06 08:18 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Good point Liz a 100 spot whould help my case.
WB
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Demonichildren
unknown


Registered: 02/18/06
Posts: 108
Loc: CA
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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: WhiteBunny]
#5347630 - 02/27/06 11:01 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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haha, dood just look on craigslist.org and buy privately
-------------------- questions of the unknown
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WhiteBunny
How deep doesthe rabbit hole go?


Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 1,351
Loc: Earth
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
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Quote:
Demonichildren said: haha, dood just look on craigslist.org and buy privately
All of these cars are in Cali I live in Florida...it would be a hell of a deal for to to go over there and drive back.
WB
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Edited by WhiteBunny (02/28/06 08:18 AM)
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Liz
Owl Lady



Registered: 11/16/04
Posts: 6,962
Loc: Massachusetts
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Re: I hate car salesmen [Re: WhiteBunny]
#5350121 - 02/28/06 04:12 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
WhiteBunny said:
Quote:
Demonichildren said: haha, dood just look on craigslist.org and buy privately
All of these cars are in Cali I live in Florida...it would be a hell of a deal for to to go over there and drive back.
WB
Craigslist is all over the world...below is the link to the miami one, since I didn't know what part of Florida you were in. Over on the left are all of the different cities that have craigslist pages.
http://miami.craigslist.com/
-------------------- Remember, remember the fifth of November The gunpowder treason and plot. I see no reason why gunpowder treason Should ever be forgot.
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