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A philosophy on perception
    #10168072 -

It is natural to think that the world exists as we perceive it. This perspective, called naive realism, seems to be the default of the human mind. But, if you take science to its logical conclusion, you will realize that naive realism is false, and obviously so. The evolved psychological structure of our mind has made naive realism very difficult to shake, and thus, despite what science implicates, few people realize what perception actually is: a suite of elegant and useful devices of the mind that convert parts of the vastly complex physical universe into mental representations that evolved because of their adaptive consequences. I will attempt to show you what I mean.

Let's start with an analysis of one the major senses, hearing. The interaction of matter produces vibrations that travel through the air. If the vibrations are between a certain frequency, then they physically cause some kind of oscillation in the inner ear. Information from these oscillations is sent to the auditory cortex of the brain, where they are interpreted and the sensation of sound is produced. So, sound waves exist, but noise does not. Noise is a construct of the mind, produced by complex networks of brain neurons firing in patterns. Sound waves are named relative to the sense they create in humans, and indeed in most mammals. But these vibrations do not carry sound. Sound comes from us. If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to hear it, it does not make a sound. It makes vibrations. We evolved a mechanism to harness the vibrations (the ear) and a mechanism to make sense of the vibrations (the brain) because it is useful. With the right mental tools, sound waves can communicate how matter is interacting, at what intensity, from how far away, and in what direction.

It is commonly said that bats use sound to navigate. They do use what we call sound waves to navigate, but it is important to realize that they do not "hear" their way around. They probably use sound waves to recreate their external spatial environment in their mind's eye. In this way, echolocation is much more akin to sight. Humans and bats use the same phenomena for different means. Our senses reveal the world in some way, yes, but what exists externally is not absolute.

Taste does not exist either. Chemicals exist, and we evolved what we call taste to help put beneficial things into our body and to keep deleterious things out. And if you think about it, it is also misconception that we have five senses. We have lots more, and in fact, categorizing our senses may come more from utility and intuition than from necessity. I'm not sure we need to categorize senses to describe perception. Take touch for example. People have lumped a bunch of discrete processes together because many sense perceptors reside in the same place, the skin or under the skin. But temperature detection, propioception, texture detection, and pressure detection come from separate neurological wirings.

In some ways, we can describe the world objectively. We can talk about heat, energy, chemical structure, mass, vibrations, electromagnetism and other aspects from the minutia of the world with truth and accuracy, at least according the scales that we define them. But color, texture, taste, sound, warm/cold, and other perceptions can not be described objectively because they do not exist externally. They only exist in the mind of the perceiver. This for sure is a hard thing to grasp. I am suggesting the universe has no true form. It has form, but it exists on many levels and in many dimensions, and no mind or machine, not even theoretically, could perceive it. Perception is inherently a vehicle of representation or translation, but never of truth.

As I sit in this chair I take note of its apparent characteristics: its color, its texture, its opacity, and its firmness. But the chair is not yellow, it just reflects electromagnetic radiation of specific wavelength. It feels rough, but this has mostly to do with the level at which I perceive it. I feel the threads against each other, not the surface of an individual thread, and I certainly do not feel the molecules themselves. And I see it as solid, but really, most of matter is just empty space. It seems that we perceive chemical interaction in a very removed way. It is not right or wrong that the chair feels rough, or that it looks yellow, it is just a way to frame it, a way that our mind adapted to frame it. I can say however, that the chair has mass, although I have trouble pinpointing exactly why.

It seems obvious to me that since everything is filtered by our senses, we cannot perceive the world as it is. I used to make of this that our senses were a little off, but I now I realize that senses could be completely radical. Perception is something organisms adapted to help them survive and and reproduce by using very few and very specific aspects of the physical universe. This means that perception does not have to be true, just that it has to be useful. Our senses correspond with real details of the world, but the correspondence is strange and made up. I must also add, that there are probably many things in the buzzing, vibrating, physical world that we do not have a sense for at all. Some senses use a specific part of a phenomenon, like sight, in which a tiny fraction of the electromagnetic spectrum is recruited for vision. We can't see the other sides of the electromagnetic spectrum, but we can see some effects (sun burn) and we can use tools to convert other wavelengths into a something we can see (spectroscopes do this I think). Question: Are there things out there that we not only do not have a sense for, but also could not design a machine to measure? Would we ever know of such a thing? Is antimatter an example of this? If we can't know all the pieces from the physical world, can we ever disprove reductionist theory?


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"When any answer is possible all answers are meaningless" --Isaac Asimov

"Pour me a drink so I can refuse to toast" --Lorie Moore

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Re: A philosophy on perception [Re: GhengisKhan]
    #10168287 -

Quote:
GhengisKhan said: Our senses reveal the world in some way, yes, but what exists externally is not absolute.



Huh?  Ultimate reality presumably exists; obviously this is absolute compared to our subjective perceptions of it.

Quote:
GhengisKhan said: But color, texture, taste, sound, warm/cold, and other perceptions can not be described objectively because they do not exist externally.



We can certainly communicate about these feelings objectively, albeit imperfectly.  I can convey to you that I possess a pain and you will have some idea of what I mean; this would be impossible if perceptions were solely subjective.

Quote:
GhengisKhan said: I am suggesting the universe has no true form.



The tao both has form and it does not have form.  Form is a matter of which perspective you look at it.  Unfortunately perception (and perhaps a priori cognition) are the only way we can ever hope to approach truth.

Quote:
GhengisKhan said: Question: Are there things out there that we not only do not have a sense for, but also could not design a machine to measure?



Sure, it's possible.  But since such things could never interact with our observable Universe, why bother theorizing about them?  There is nothing productive to be gained here for a useful metaphysic.

Quote:
GhengisKhan said: Is antimatter an example of this?



We can detect antimatter, can't we?

Quote:
GhengisKhan said:  If we can't know all the pieces from the physical world, can we ever disprove reductionist theory?



Not sure what you're getting at here.  Reductionist theory would imply that the mind is explainable in terms of material processes; there is no need for an unobservable deus ex machina.

Good post, though!  I agree with most of what you have said.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: A philosophy on perception [Re: deCypher]
    #10168425 -

basically were fucked...

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Re: A philosophy on perception [Re: Mastamike1118]
    #10168523 -

I liked most of the post. Trying to figure out exactly what the perceiver is doing is very interesting but such a murky area.

I'll say one thing I like psychedelics for is how at times they have slapped me in the face and just made me realize how bizarre everything just is and that no matter how acquainted or familiar we feel with the world around us it already just is existence/being/nature herself that we are staring down - in the form we have harnessed as our perspective. And I guess so far on earth the humans have the most advantageous perspective, interesting to think about the genealogy of how we became so perceptive and reflected on our representations of the world. Leave it to the emotions and sensations of tripping to just make the moments we always already experience totally shift into some totally bizarre and awesome phenomenon.

Alright thats enough rambling... haha :gethigh:


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Jesus loves you.

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Re: A philosophy on perception [Re: GhengisKhan]
    #10170166 -

This means that perception does not have to be true, just that it has to be useful.

All cool. This is my main point in debating our ability to become "enlightened" as if we could ever really know anything. Some think that taking strange substances that change the way chemicals react with the brain is showing us reality, but in effect it's just another layer of the endless onion of our adaptive perceptions.

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Re: A philosophy on perception [Re: GhengisKhan]
    #10170543 -

If you want to experience whats absolutely real then you have to go beyond the senses, as everything the senses deals with is impermanent, so not absolute

The sense "I exist" is the gateway to realizing the absolute as it comes before any sensory perception. The sense "I" must be there for sensory perception to be acknowledged, if you let the effortless sense "I" reflect on itself & not connect it to any sensory perception then the absolute is revealed, as the absolute is "I"

:peace:


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Re: A philosophy on perception [Re: GhengisKhan]
    #10170673 -

I like where your basic premise goes, but I think it is roughly hewn as if by a Mongol.
GhengisKhan said:
It is natural to think that the world exists as we perceive it. This perspective, called naive realism, seems to be the default of the human mind. But, if you take science to its logical conclusion, you will realize that naive realism is false, and obviously so. The evolved psychological structure of our mind has made naive realism very difficult to shake, and thus, despite what science implicates, few people realize what perception actually is: a suite of elegant and useful devices of the mind that convert parts of the vastly complex physical universe into mental representations that evolved because of their adaptive consequences. ...



“if you take science to it’s logical conclusion”
This is awkward

Science is so many things,
If you follow any of the things that science is, I would hope it to be Natural Science, and if you do, you will find it does not end, or conclude anywhere. Conclusions are part of the political mandate that corporate science is very big on,

Anyway if you do follow nature, (as a Natural Scientist). You will learn (not conclude) a ton about the many processes that bring raw sensation into the brain, and then use associative matching to pin meaning to the oceans of signals that keep flowing in.

I love the bat sonar image-example, particularly because they do hear their world, but in hearing that world, I would propose that the synaesthesia they create out of associative linkage is not the same as the one we do, their resolution is so much finer.

But when we are inebriated and listen to music, we do begin to see spaces and movements and colors, so I would not be too quick to break the habit of using the term “hearing” from the understanding of how the bat’s sonar perception of space works.

as to finding what is true or real, One should keep following Nature to see what they can see, noting that reality is in flux, and the senses and all the energy in the head, and all the typing on the internet is all part of that flux.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: A philosophy on perception [Re: redgreenvines]
    #10170835 -

as to finding what is true or real, One should keep following Nature to see what they can see, noting that reality is in flux, and the senses and all the energy in the head, and all the typing on the internet is all part of that flux.

true dat:thumbup:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: A philosophy on perception [Re: Icelander]
    #10171212 -

if reality is in flux how can it be called reality?

if you say a thing is real & that thing is flux, then with time it will disappear, so in what way isit really real?

witness of the flux is great, but the witness is not held in the flux, thats why witnessing the flux is so great!

:peace:


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Re: A philosophy on perception [Re: Chronic7]
    #10171278 -

Well let's be frank. Nothing is real in the sense that it is permanent other than energy as far as we know.

So for some reason we are here living on a living planet among other living creatures and we have a sense and perception of that. This is what we "call" real. We live eat shit breed and walk talk breath lie cheat steal love and philosophize.

The point being to indulge in it to the best of your animal abilities, because it may be all we really have. You may only get to be "real" once.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: A philosophy on perception [Re: Icelander]
    #10171364 -

indulgence is a brillaint celebration of this wonderful opportunity we have, life is for celebrating! :thumbup:

but i still maintain that realizing the Tao which is ultimately beyond all this & regarding only Tao as real, makes all this that much more enjoyable & to some extent you have to step back from indulgence (for a sec) & step back into the Tao, which is the core of yourself, just to be fully quiet & self relfective for a minute, to appreciate the inner silence then carry it with you in the world

its like the core just has to leave the periphery for a minute in order to get correct perspective, then indulge like a frickin wild beast on heat! :wink:

:peace:


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Re: A philosophy on perception [Re: Chronic7]
    #10171405 -

Well why not? But it doesn't have to be important to everyone. Many seem to have great life experiences without ever delving into this sort of thing. If it turns you on then it's good enough.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: A philosophy on perception [Re: Icelander]
    #10171533 -

Of course some people are in the world celebrating beautifully & that is undeniably part of life, diving right in & being none the wiser, and its fun too, we all do it to an extent

But 'it' becomes important to us all, if not during life, at the instant we die it will become extremely important

sorry to put such a downer onit but its not really a downer

:peace:


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Re: A philosophy on perception [Re: Icelander]
    #10171720 -

Good feedback. I agree with redgreenvines analysis of science. We should be skeptical and try to falsify our theories. If we can't, then an idea is just more likely to be true. I still think I have a point that the basic premise of my idea is very unlikely to be wrong, because it is firmly attached to many other ideas that are very unlikely to be wrong. And yes, I can't really say much about how other animals perceive the world.

What I really want to get across is that despite how our evolutionary disposition makes it obvious that the world exists as we perceive it, our best tools at understanding the natural world suggest that this is false. I having been noticing a lot lately very good ideas from science and philosophy that strongly resist popular opinion because they are either counter intuitive or threatening to a belief or to culture in some way.

The reason that there are proponents of intelligent design, that people still circumcise babies, that people still hold the blank slate theory of mind, that people oppose stem cell research, that people think economists can predict the future, that people think global warming is not real, and that people believe in the afterlife is not because they have the upper hand in the argument. Rationality can be blocked by other forces in my opinion.


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"When any answer is possible all answers are meaningless" --Isaac Asimov

"Pour me a drink so I can refuse to toast" --Lorie Moore

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Re: A philosophy on perception [Re: Chronic7]
    #10171875 -

But 'it' becomes important to us all, if not during life, at the instant we die it will become extremely important


Once again you have lost me with your insistence that you know what will be important not only to yourself but to others at the moment of death. IMO this is just posturing.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: A philosophy on perception [Re: deCypher]
    #10183869 -

We can certainly communicate about these feelings objectively, albeit imperfectly.  I can convey to you that I possess a pain and you will have some idea of what I mean; this would be impossible if perceptions were solely subjective.

Here you promoting the idea of a sort of objective subjectivism. It would not necessarily be impossible if perceptions were solely subjective. Solipsism argues that all judgements made about phenomena that lie outside the mind are unjustifiable. It could very well be that my green is your blue, but we have each been raised to name that specific occurance of color "purple". The history of man seems to be the struggle for consolidation. Wether this means there is truly an underlying unification of totallity that is capable of being conceptualized in a single thought, or whether this consolidation is just a patchwork of representational abstraction (<-- this might be an oxymoron, but oh well) used as a domicile to protect us from the chaotic tempest of uncertainty, that seems to be the question.


Quote:
GhengisKhan said: Question: Are there things out there that we not only do not have a sense for, but also could not design a machine to measure?



Sure, it's possible.  But since such things could never interact with our observable Universe, why bother theorizing about them?  There is nothing productive to be gained here for a useful metaphysic.


Fe Fi Fo Fum I smell the blood of a German Idealist!
Most people would laugh at the idea of a productive metaphysic.

Anyhow, Phenemology of Perception by Maurice Merleau-Ponty is an interesting, albeit difficult, interpretion of the subject of perception.

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Re: A philosophy on perception *DELETED* [Re: Dasein]
    #10184202 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: .

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Re: A philosophy on perception [Re: Dasein]
    #10206830 -

Dasein said:
We can certainly communicate about these feelings objectively, albeit imperfectly.  I can convey to you that I possess a pain and you will have some idea of what I mean; this would be impossible if perceptions were solely subjective.



Our bodies and mind are all built almost exactly identically by our genes. So our sensation of pain of course is going to similar. I can understand others' feeling of pain because I understand my own feeling of pain and because I can project others mental states onto myself. Pain feels powerful and consistent, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a charade of chemical and electrical processes adapted to keep organisms from damaging themselves. Of course it feels real, or else pain wouldn't be effective. Pain is only objective in the sense that feels about the same for everyone. It subjective in the sense that it results from the firing neurons in patterns, and does not come simply from the sum of its parts.


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"When any answer is possible all answers are meaningless" --Isaac Asimov

"Pour me a drink so I can refuse to toast" --Lorie Moore

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Re: A philosophy on perception [Re: Lakefingers]
    #10207103 -

help with the deutch
babelfish makes nonsense

I guess it is "where else is being?"


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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