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Re: This Society Rules [Re: Set]
    #10075195 -

Set said:
Krishna said:
you do realize if you lived as a hunter-gatherer you wouldn't have time to do anything but hunt and gather, to continually survive?


Not true.  The time spent hunting/gathering in an egalitarian hunter-gatherer society is not very much, say 4 hours per day or so on average.



source? because every anthropology class i've ever taken says different.

sure, if we have agriculture, the time necessary to collect food is drastically reduced. unfortunately, to get agriculture, you have to have specialization, and to get specialization, you have to move away from hunter/gatherer societies to allow people to dedicate their time and efforts to particular tasks.

i think what marx imagined (using technology to enable us to be "hunter/gatherers" without having to hunt or gather) is a hell of a lot more realistic than some bs hippie notion of a return to tribal society, and i don't think marx's end-game is very realistic itself.

2 words - systems complexity.

nothing short of nuclear apocalypse will turn back systems complexity. a smart critical social theorist will recognize this and stop talking about communes (fine for a few individuals, go for it, but unsustainable for the world).


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Re: This Society Rules [Re: Krishna]
    #10075338 -

My source is my Anthropology degree (1/2 focused on physical anth and human origins, the other 1/2 cultural focusing on Mesoamerica).

The example I stated was from an intro to Cultural Anth class (using the San of the Khalahari as an example if I remember correctly), and relates to a band-level society, technically the smallest society.  Of course, as soon as the carrying capacity of the environment is exceeded by the needs of an expanding population agriculture becomes a necessity. 

I didn't intend my previous post to be viewed as a solution, or relevant today (unless a majority of the worlds population disappears), but it is historically accurate when referring to bands of hunter gatherers.


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    classic LOVELINE

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Re: This Society Rules [Re: Set]
    #10082721 -

The !Kung are a modern-day egalitarian hunter-gatherer tribe living in a pretty crappy region of Africa, all arable land having been conquered by more numerous sedentary tribes .  Their average work week for all tasks relating to their survival is between 12 and 17 hours. That leaves a lot of free time.

Agriculture was the choice that was necessary to continue population growth instead of regulating the size of the group through exogamy, fission or expulsion.
From agriculture stems sedentary life, surplus , the concept of private property, task specialization (people being fed by the surplus), ideology and state.

It's not like our race knows what it's doing , or why it's on this Earth.  It's not like evolution is a linear progression, of rational choices.  We have not chosen the path we now walk, it's simply the result of climate changes 12 000 years ago that allowed mammals like us to strive and our very creative mind. 

As crazy as it sounds , I'm not sure agriculture was the best choice.

(Edit) P.S. :  It's funny how people think "primitive" life was crappy because people worked their ass off for survival.  But hey , a 60 hour work week to pay off student loans , credit debts , insurance , food and rent is all right as long as you get to choose between 60 channels on TV and get some kind of impression that you have a say on the way things are run.

Edited by TypicalTripper (03/31/09 07:01 PM)

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Re: This Society Rules [Re: TypicalTripper]
    #10082848 -

The shorter work week is a definite advantage. But you are forgetting the 10,000 other things that set us apart from a hunter gatherer society. We have access to principles of mathematics, physics, and psychology and are therefore less constrained to specialisation of finding a few food items and building a few things with sticks and fibrous materials.

You think an isolated tribe isn't prone to ideologies? You are not thinking this through.

You can certainly be lazy and stupid in our society, but that is your prerogative.

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Re: This Society Rules [Re: Epigallo]
    #10082865 -

I'm not sure how calculus II and knowing the freezing point of nitrous help you in your daily life , let alone in bushcraft.  There's a shitload of food out there , we just forgot what it looked like , or were pushed into thinking a meal comes frozen in a box in the fridge.

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Re: This Society Rules [Re: TypicalTripper]
    #10082935 -

That's exactly it. You are taking for granted the fact that you know there is more to life than finding food...more than one dimensional survival. We can create layers upon layers of meaning ... and so many tools, if you claim the responsibility to use them.

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Re: This Society Rules [Re: Epigallo]
    #10082994 -

You know , the goal to life is what you make it to be.  Some goals are ushered by family, others by culture or society.  Regardless of what they may be , I think everyone finds his own temporary meaning of life or aspirations. 
The only people I've seen that focused solely on one dimensional survival were pretty depressed. 

The human mind can and will think about subjects besides food, which is what makes our life more than finding food.  Call it layers of meaning, I still appreciate them.
Are they not real, even though they are creation of men, if they exist universally in his mind ?

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Re: This Society Rules [Re: TypicalTripper]
    #10083023 -

TypicalTripper said:
The human mind can and will think about subjects besides food, which is what makes our life more than finding food.  Call it layers of meaning, I still appreciate them.
Are they not real, even though they are creation of men, if they exist universally in his mind ?


i think bradley's point (and my point above) is man is only free to begin to seriously contemplate such things when his base needs are accounted for.

i certainly think there is a lot we can learn from pastoralism - indeed, there are projects championed by farmers in the states to go to eastern kenya and learn from the massai, or go to rajasthan and learn from nomadic camel herders, etc - to get a better sense of how these people have held onto sustainability in some of the harshest climates in the world. however, there's a reason there are no great massai philosophers or poets or scientists. not because they don't have the potential, but because the pastoral life takes the vast majority of one's energy and time.


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Re: This Society Rules [Re: Krishna]
    #10083177 -

The hunter gatherers or nomadic tribes of today have been pushed to the farthest , harshest regions , where we cannot cultivate anything, even with our vast technology and knowledge. 

They would not be so hard pressed on survival if they lived in somewhere more life-supporting.

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Re: This Society Rules [Re: TypicalTripper]
    #10083234 -

TypicalTripper said:
The hunter gatherers or nomadic tribes of today have been pushed to the farthest , harshest regions , where we cannot cultivate anything, even with our vast technology and knowledge. 

They would not be so hard pressed on survival if they lived in somewhere more life-supporting.


What, Ethiopia and Somalia not good enough for you?


--------------------

Fight for a large loving government that can take care of its people, kill our criminals, and preform the huge industrial tasks our corporate overlords refuse(wanna greenwash me some more Exon?)

Not this weak travesty that let millions starve and sucks corporate cock while failing at every turn.

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