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US graduates suffer income inequality
    #7012305 -

From the Financial Times

Quote:
Earnings of the average US worker with an undergraduate degree have not kept up with gains in productivity in recent decades, according to research by academics at MIT that challenges traditional explanations of why income inequality is rising.

The findings, which will be presented to the New America Foundation on Tuesday, come amid widespread unease about the sluggish trend in middle class income growth, both in absolute terms and relative to the new superstar class of chief executives, hedge fund managers and other financiers.

While in the short term labour market conditions are now good for most US workers, the state of the “American dream” is already emerging as a big theme in the run-up to the 2008 presidential election.

In a recent speech, Hillary Clinton, the Democratic frontrunner, complained that “while productivity and corporate profits are up, the fruits of that success just hasn’t reached many of our families . . . It’s like trickle-down economics but without the trickle.”

Meanwhile, John Edwards, the former senator, has made “eliminating poverty within 30 years” a centrepiece of his left-leaning campaign, which stresses the problems of inequality in the US.

The Massachusetts Institute of Technology economists, Frank Levy and Peter Temin, repeat earlier findings that the gap between the earnings of the average university graduate and high school graduate – which was stable for much of the 1960s and 1970s – expanded relentlessly from 1980 to 2000, before slowing a little in recent years.

This is consistent with the conventional explanation that the rise in inequality is largely due to technology trends that disproportionately benefit skilled workers.

But Mr Levy and Mr Temin go on to show that, while graduates certainly did better than non-graduates in recent decades, the average graduate also failed to keep up with gains in economy-wide productivity, once those productivity gains are adjusted for the composition of the workforce.

Male graduates in particular failed to capture a full share of productivity advances, with female graduates keeping pace until the last five years – probably due to increasing opportunities for women in the workplace. This casts doubt on the conventional argument that the solution to rising in-equality is to improve the standard of education across the workforce as a whole, and encourage more people to go to university.

“Is the average bachelor’s degree still sufficient to catch the rising tide? In the case of men at least, the answer is no,” the authors conclude.

They point out that rising inequality may still be caused by “skill-biased” technical change – but of a kind that disproportionately benefits the very skilled, rather than the merely educated.

If so, this creates a huge headache for policymakers because while it is in principle at least possible to greatly expand the number of basic college places, it is not possible to send every worker in the US to Harvard Business School.

Mr Levy and Mr Temin argue that the failure of workers even with undergraduate degrees to keep up with productivity is due to a change in labour market institutions and norms that reduced the bargaining power of most US workers.

They argue “only a re-orientation of government policy can restore the general prosperity of the postwar boom”.

The paper follows the presentation last week of joint Pew/Brookings Institution research showing that men in their 30s earned on average 12 per cent less in 2004 than their fathers did in 1974 after adjusting for inflation.




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"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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Re: US graduates suffer income inequality [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #7015755 -

Kinda makes me wish that i forego my education :shrug:


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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: US graduates suffer income inequality [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #7015855 -

That makes me happy that I'm going to law school.

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Re: US graduates suffer income inequality [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #7015865 -

Comparing high school graduates to college gradutates to the average over time ignores the fact that a higher proportion of people in the US go to college now than at any time in the past.
See:
http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/2007/section3/table.asp?tableID=703

This means that some of the people who have degrees now wouldn't have bothered 20 years ago.

I'd also like to highlight that there are two explanations suggested for this increased disparity by the article:

Quote:
rising inequality may still be caused by “skill-biased” technical change – but of a kind that disproportionately benefits the very skilled, rather than the merely educated.



Quote:
the failure of workers even with undergraduate degrees to keep up with productivity is due to a change in labour market institutions and norms that reduced the bargaining power of most US workers.



These explanations are not mutually exclusive, but if the first explanation is true (regardless of whether the second is or not), then we should probably refrain from "re-orient(ing) ... government policy" to reduce the correlation between the economic value of work and compensation.

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Re: US graduates suffer income inequality [Re: Redstorm]
    #7015872 -

Oh fucking great, another uber-parasite. (congratulations, by the way, on getting in. You will soon be joining the ranks of total whoredom. Bring lube.)


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Re: US graduates suffer income inequality [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7015892 -

Quote:
the failure of workers even with undergraduate degrees to keep up with productivity is due to a change in labour market institutions and norms that reduced the bargaining power of most US workers.



That sentence (fragment?) doesn't even make sense. If it said worker's wages failed to keep up with productivity gains I might be able to make a weak case for its coherence, but as written it is socialist Wobbly nonsense. Worker bargaining power has never been greater. Collective worker bargaining power may be in decline but individual workers have never been stronger.


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Re: US graduates suffer income inequality [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7015924 -

I didn't get in yet. My LSAT's are on monday, but I've been improving steadily. I am now at the point where I'm testing at the 97th or so percentile. I should get into a good school and hopefully get some scholarship money as well.

And then I can be a whore. :wink:

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Re: US graduates suffer income inequality [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7016095 -

zappaisgod said:
That sentence (fragment?) doesn't even make sense. If it said worker's wages failed to keep up with productivity gains



Worker's wages have failed to keep up with productivity gains.

Quote:
zappaisgod said:Worker bargaining power has never been greater. Collective worker bargaining power may be in decline but individual workers have never been stronger.



Tell that to people who lost their jobs due to automation and outsourcing.


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"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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Re: US graduates suffer income inequality [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #7016565 -

Quote:
Tell that to people who lost their jobs due to automation and outsourcing.




Don't forget the people who automate tasks and negotiate with foreign firms to outsource work - these people create far more wealth than the workers they displace, and are the root cause of the productivity gains. If you penalize this type of work, you'll find that wages keep pace with productivity gains not because the wages rise but because productivity growth slows.

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Re: US graduates suffer income inequality [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #7017936 -

FrenchSocialist said:
Worker's wages have failed to keep up with productivity gains.



I've seen this argument again and again here, and I've yet to understand it.

I've always used this hypothetical to explain my perplexion:

Imagine I'm a mechanic and I change car tires at a garage. I'm normally able to change the tires on 4 cars a day. Then one day my boss comes along and gives me a pneumatic wrench. This new tool allows me to quickly change tires and I can now change the tires on 8 cars every day.

My productivity has increased by 100%, but I'm still paid the same because my basic skillset is unchanged.

Do I really deserve a 100% increase to my salary because my boss has purchased a new tool for me to use?

Unless college educations have somehow improved such that all productivity gains in America are due to college education improving and NOT because of technological innovation, then it would make sense for salaries to keep pace for college graduates.

If, instead, a college education is about as useful today as it was a decade ago, but technology has vastly improved, there is no real reason for college-grade salaries to keep pace with productivity.

Does anyone have numbers suggesting today's college education is better than a decade ago? Because it's fairly easy to show technological improvement, by contrast.

edit: Doh! I screwed up and originally typed "4 cars" both times. It's supposed to be 4 and then 8. Hopefully this actually makes sense now.

Edited by Economist (06/11/07 01:59 AM)

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Re: US graduates suffer income inequality [Re: Economist]
    #7024281 -

Economist said:
FrenchSocialist said:
Worker's wages have failed to keep up with productivity gains.



I've seen this argument again and again here, and I've yet to understand it.

I've always used this hypothetical to explain my perplexion:

Imagine I'm a mechanic and I change car tires at a garage. I'm normally able to change the tires on 4 cars a day. Then one day my boss comes along and gives me a pneumatic wrench. This new tool allows me to quickly change tires and I can now change the tires on 4 cars every day.

My productivity has increased by 100%, but I'm still paid the same because my basic skillset is unchanged.

Do I really deserve a 100% increase to my salary because my boss has purchased a new tool for me to use?

Unless college educations have somehow improved such that all productivity gains in America are due to college education improving and NOT because of technological innovation, then it would make sense for salaries to keep pace for college graduates.

If, instead, a college education is about as useful today as it was a decade ago, but technology has vastly improved, there is no real reason for college-grade salaries to keep pace with productivity.

Does anyone have numbers suggesting today's college education is better than a decade ago? Because it's fairly easy to show technological improvement, by contrast.



I think some of it has to do with the shift in skills that is taking place, and has been for at least a decade. For example, there are far fewer young people entering the skilled trades such as heavy equipment mechanical, electrical, welding, etc.

So there has been a marked increase in the rates paid to these workers due to a lack of available new talent and an increase in demand in the resource industries.

All of the above mentioned trades can earn $80 to $110k per year with full benefits. This means that employers are raising the salaries of some workers who are in short supply, and holding the salary line on other types of workers who are more available.

I have seen a steady stream of young people who have been told by the education system that a college education is the only way to high earnings and respectability. They are very much dis-illusioned. Some drive taxis, waitress, park cars, for far less money and not in their field of educational expertise. Granted, a BA in Medieval History is not in great demand.

It is simply untrue in some occupations that college is an advantage. Also by way of example, a person without a high school diploma, willing to work in some adverse conditions - and work hard - can easily pull in $125k as a miner. Base wages are probably only $50k, and production bonus makes up the balance.

Also interesting is that the highest paid factory workers in the US (in 1999 /2000) I believe, work entirely on the piece work bonus system - Lincoln Electric, which manufactures welding machines. These people make between $60-75k a year at that time.

So the skill set demographic is shifting (in my experience as a manager in a resource industry) and changing how employers are distributing the dollars they are willing to pay people.


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You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.

When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.

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Re: US graduates suffer income inequality [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #7025005 -

Psychoactive1984 said:
Kinda makes me wish that i forego my education :shrug:



Well Zappaisgod hates academics. I suppose his message is "drop out of school!"


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"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

Edited by FrenchSocialist (06/09/07 01:00 AM)

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Re: US graduates suffer income inequality [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #7025720 -

It is entirely correct that I have very little respect for academics. They are largely cowards. Intellectually, politically and practically.


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Re: US graduates suffer income inequality [Re: hummermania00]
    #7032414 -

hummermania00 said:
It is simply untrue in some occupations that college is an advantage. Also by way of example, a person without a high school diploma, willing to work in some adverse conditions - and work hard - can easily pull in $125k as a miner. Base wages are probably only $50k, and production bonus makes up the balance.



While I agree that what you are saying about skill-set shifts is no doubt true, I do think that this isn't entirely correct.

The education system tells you that you need a college diploma - not to gain an advantage but to gain access to the more lucrative fields. Try getting an entry-level job at an investment bank without one, or with a consulting firm.

Someone with a college diploma, who was adequately motivated, is no less capable of working as a miner than someone without. Meanwhile, someone without can't even get their foot in the door at most financial institutions. That is the benefit of a college diploma.

The real benefit of a college diploma is not actually the education conferred by the diploma, but the guarantee that a person who has gone to college has certain minimum capabilities.

The best example of this is to compare the salaries of people who have gone (but not completed) college with those who never went at all. The salaries of the college drop-outs have, and continue to consistantly exceed that of high-school graduates:



If the real benefit of college was the education itself, this wouldn't be the case.

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Re: US graduates suffer income inequality [Re: Economist]
    #7032431 -

Could be post hoc. Maybe the people who are likely to go to college are so for genetic reasons, or because their parents are wealthy and have a tradition of it i.e. they would have connections and more initial capital.


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"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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Re: US graduates suffer income inequality [Re: Economist]
    #7032559 -

Economist said:
hummermania00 said:
It is simply untrue in some occupations that college is an advantage. Also by way of example, a person without a high school diploma, willing to work in some adverse conditions - and work hard - can easily pull in $125k as a miner. Base wages are probably only $50k, and production bonus makes up the balance.



While I agree that what you are saying about skill-set shifts is no doubt true, I do think that this isn't entirely correct.

The education system tells you that you need a college diploma - not to gain an advantage but to gain access to the more lucrative fields. Try getting an entry-level job at an investment bank without one, or with a consulting firm.

Someone with a college diploma, who was adequately motivated, is no less capable of working as a miner than someone without. Meanwhile, someone without can't even get their foot in the door at most financial institutions. That is the benefit of a college diploma.

The real benefit of a college diploma is not actually the education conferred by the diploma, but the guarantee that a person who has gone to college has certain minimum capabilities.

The best example of this is to compare the salaries of people who have gone (but not completed) college with those who never went at all. The salaries of the college drop-outs have, and continue to consistantly exceed that of high-school graduates:



If the real benefit of college was the education itself, this wouldn't be the case.



What you also need to take into account are the actual earnings that a person will make for the 4 or 5 years the other is in college, and the lack of debt at completion. Potential? Easily a $300k difference that a college grad is behind on day one.
I agree that to get into a finance or similar occupation, college is a necessity.


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You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.

When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.

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Re: US graduates suffer income inequality [Re: Economist]
    #7032595 -

> Someone with a college diploma, who was adequately motivated, is no less capable of working as a miner than someone without.

Having attended a mining and engineering college, I would disagree. There is a massive amount of science and engineering behind the scenes of a modern mining operation. Just because I can balance my checkbook without an accounting degree doesn't mean that with adequate motivation, I can also be an effective accountant.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: US graduates suffer income inequality [Re: Seuss]
    #7033900 -

I think you misunderstood his point Seuss, which is, I believe, that even those with a four year degree in uselessness can still be just as likely to succeed as a miner (one of the ones who actually goes in the hole, not an office miner) as one who has not been similarly handicapped. For instance, my psychology degree did not prevent me from becoming a carpenter and eventually a business owner. It might have put me a little behind in the deal but I worked at it in the summers so it wasn't as much of a handicap as it might be for say a 4 year barrista.

I remember about 20 or so years ago I read about a study where if you control for everything else the value of a four year degree was pretty much nil. Class background, general intelligence, time wasted, money invested, etc. it was pretty much a wash. Didn't surprise me a bit.


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Re: US graduates suffer income inequality [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7033985 -

Do you have anything besides anecdotal evidence by which to justify your claims? The fact that you are trained as a psychologist makes me suspicious that you are being sneaky by using a notable yet atypical example:

Quote:
When used in advertising or promotion of a product, service, or idea, anecdotal evidence is often called a testimonial and is banned in some jurisdictions. The term is also sometimes used in a legal context to describe certain kinds of testimony. Psychologists have found that people are more likely to remember notable examples than typical examples[1].



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence


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"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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Re: US graduates suffer income inequality [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #7034076 -

FrenchSocialist said:
Do you have anything besides anecdotal evidence by which to justify your claims? The fact that you are trained as a psychologist makes me suspicious that you are being sneaky by using a notable yet atypical example:



I have presented exactly as much evidence as anyone else here has, the irrelevant chart notwithstanding. The irrelevancy of the chart rests on the fact that there is no control for anything other than level of education. At any rate, the earnings value of any college education is rather more closely related to field of study. Engineers make money(degree), tradespeople make money( no degree), social workers(degree) don't make shit.

I am not trained as a Psychologist. I have a bachelors degree in psych, most of which was earned by ignoring what is typically considered psychology by most people and concentrating as much as possible on what little of it might have been construed as a science at the time. At any rate, I was mostly trying to clarify something for Seuss.


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