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Re: Letter from Pat Tillmans brother, [Re: unbeliever]
    #6196785 -

Quote:
unbeliever said:Pat Tillman is a bit of an asshole for wasting everything he had by joining the military

Is that sufficiently lucite?


no.  wasting what?  his football career?  So, are you saying that a football season is more important than the military?  It's not like he was a world-class brain surgeon, that went into the frontlines..  or a bioengineer on the brink of a new cure.  He played a game on TV that sells sports apparell, beer, and whatever else they can cram into the adverts.

:rolleyes:  get a grip buddy  :crazy2:


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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Re: Letter from Pat Tillmans brother, [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #6198430 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
unbeliever said:
Redstorm said:
Then perhaps you should explain yourself clearly?


Since the intellectual bar seems to be set pretty low, I'll go ahead and flex my knees a bit.

I think Pat Tillman is a bit of an asshole for wasting everything he had by joining the military (assuming of course his reasons for signing up really were to "make a difference" or whatever). Most people who join the military are not in that same situation, so no I don't consider them assholes (I don't consider them at all in fact).

And again, joining the armed forces != automatic hero in my book. That's earned, regardless of whether you wear a uniform or not.

Is that sufficiently lucite?


I agree with Redstorm and Kotik.  You're not making sense.

You feel that anyone Patriotic enough to give up a good life to serve his country is an asshole?  Yet "joining the armed forces = automatic hero".

I'm certainly confused.  :tongue:


!= means "does not equal". I'm saying that joining up doesn't mean you're an automatic hero in my book. And when people look a gift horse in the mouth, it's one thing... but when they slap the horse in the face and walk away.. that's another. :shrug:


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Happiness is a warm gun...

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Re: Letter from Pat Tillmans brother, [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6201786 -

Quote:
So what does his death have to do with Iraq?


You seriously asked that question?? Did you even read the article? That article had ALOT to say about iraq, or did you just tune that out and repeat to yourself "death to arabs! death to arabs!"?

Quote:
there were, and are, damn good reasons for doing it.


You know, the more you tell yourself that doesn't make it any more true.

Quote:
I and several others have laid them out for you with a patient, at times, explanation of why they trump the negatives


How about these reasons for the iraq war?

Quote:
Somehow we were sent to invade a nation because it was a direct threat to the American people(false), or to the world(false), or harbored terrorists(false), or was involved in the September 11 attacks(false), or received weapons-grade uranium from Niger(false), or had mobile weapons labs(false), or WMD(false), or had a need to be liberated(false), or we needed to establish a democracy(false), or stop an insurgency, or stop a civil war we created that can’t be called a civil war even though it is. Something like that.



Your reasons only exist to the portion of the population that will follow their party no matter right or wrong. You will always be able to justify these horrible actions to your own mind reguardless of the facts. We seen it many times in history and there will always be people like yourself willing to spew blinded patriotism to the masses. But good luck getting the people here to believe your "just reasons for invading iraq". The vast majority of the shroomery know better, we know it was bullshit lies and no amount of flag waving or beating of your chest is going change the facts of our modern history. And as you can see by the article in this thread, even the brother of a national hero can see the lies. Keep your head in the sand Zappa, we need people like you to remind us of what we must never let ourselves become.  :thumbup:

Quote:
I should have my attorneys sue you for your bicycle for your continued misattribution of my brilliant remark on faggy potheads


You said it, not me. Suck it up.


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa

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Re: Letter from Pat Tillmans brother, [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #6202928 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Pat was killed in Afghanistan


So what does his death have to do with Iraq?


His death has nothing to do with Iraq. This was just an editor's note providing some background material.

Quote:
As to the rest of your benighted screed, there was nothing illegal about the invasion of Iraq and there were, and are, damn good reasons for doing it.


Yes, the article laid those damn good reasons out fairly well:

"we were sent to invade a nation because it was a direct threat to the American people, or to the world, or harbored terrorists, or was involved in the September 11 attacks, or received weapons-grade uranium from Niger, or had mobile weapons labs, or WMD, or had a need to be liberated, or we needed to establish a democracy, or stop an insurgency, or stop a civil war we created that can’t be called a civil war even though it is. Something like that."


1. "Direct threat to the American people" Yes, he was in fact quite eager to attack American interests
http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/006687.php
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/iraq/timeline/062793.htm
I'm sure there are many, many more

2. "or to the world" Well, he did rather have a history of invading neighboring countries. See Iran, see Kuwait.

3. "or harbored terrorists" Well, um, yeah.
http://northwet.blogspot.com/2005/12/saddam-hussein-was-linked-to.html
Tons of links.

4. "or was involved in the September 11 attacks" Well, that's nothing I ever heard from the administration so he must have hallucinated it.

5. "or received weapons grade uranium from Niger" Now this one is a total hallucination, because I know nobody in the administration ever made anything near that kind of claim. And the 9/11 commission seemed to believe that he was looking to add to his already substantial yellowcake pile. As an added fillip of knowledge for the knee-jerk of mind, Niger does not have, nor has it ever had, "weapons grade" uranium. That's just stupid.

6. "mobile weapons lab" Maybe, maybe not.

7. "WMD" Maybe, maybe not.

8. "a need to be liberated" A welcome side benefit for the Iraqi people.

9. "establish a democracy" See above.

10. "or stop an insurgency" & "or stop a civil war"
Can't recall anybody citing these when the decision was made

With all due respect, and I emphasize DUE, this guy is a bereaved idiot from the Cindy Sheehan school of fools. For the simple of mind, I will re-elucidate the reasons why I think it was mandatory:

1. He invaded another country and we embarked on a war to expel his forces. As a condition for the cessation of hostilites he agreed to comply with certain terms of cease fire. He failed to adhere. Either a contract means something or it doesn't.

2. He was most certainly actively seeking to damage our interests by violent means.

3. Shrinking from any conflict invites further attacks. Bin Laden himself cited the withdrawal from Somalia as evidence that we had no stomach for a fight. He was right about a lot of you but not about all of us.

4. He was a murdering lunatic

There are 6 billion people in the world. Millions of them are going to have grievances with us NO MATTER WHAT WE DO. This hundred million or that hundred million, there will always be hundreds of millions. Some of their beefs will be righteous, others will be bullshit. Osama's were bullshit, he objected to our presence in Saudi Arabia when we were invited by the SA government to protect them from Saddam. Who the fuck is he to decide Saudi policy? Nobody. Saddam's were bullshit as well. It's like Jeffrey Dahmer blaming the cop who caught him for his being in jail.
People need to be discouraged from attacking us, not encouraged.


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Re: Letter from Pat Tillmans brother, [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #6202948 -

RosettaStoned said:
Quote:
I should have my attorneys sue you for your bicycle for your continued misattribution of my brilliant remark on faggy potheads


You said it, not me. Suck it up.


I most certainly did say it and I want it properly attributed to ME, zappaisgod, not Zappa, who probably said many things similar to that.


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Re: Letter from Pat Tillmans brother, [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6203553 -

Personally I would be embarrassed to offer something that flimsy as some sort of evidence. Laurie Mylroie is a neocon bootlicker with very little credibility on this issue. She has been on a partisan witch hunt to nail Saddam with anything and everything for over a decade.

"In what amounts to the discovery of a unified field theory of terrorism, Mylroie believes that Saddam was not only behind the '93 Trade Center attack, but also every anti-American terrorist incident of the past decade, from the bombings of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania to the leveling of the federal building in Oklahoma City to September 11 itself. She is, in short, a crackpot.."

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2003/0312.bergen.html

"Dr. Robert Leiken of the Nixon Center comments on the lack of evidence in her work: "Laurie has discovered Saddam’s hand in every major attack on US interests since the Persian Gulf War, including U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania and even the federal building in Oklahoma City. These allegations have all been definitively refuted by the FBI, the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) and other investigatory bodies..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurie_Mylroie

The article you cited not once, but twice mentions the conclusions are only valid if "this translation holds up." Let me guess- they didn't hold up very well.

But cherrypicking and cooking of intelligence does seem to be a neocon pastime. Dick Cheney should hire her immediately.

As for for a supposed terrorist threat inside Iraq there were a few terrorists from the 80's inside the country- hell there are terrorists in most countries of the world including the United States! I don't believe having a rest home for aged terrorists qualifies as assistance. (Unless you count providing dentures and walkers as support ).

In short this is awfully thin gruel. You have completely failed to prove your case that this shameful war was anything but optional.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

Edited by zorbman (10/24/06 01:40 AM)

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Re: Letter from Pat Tillmans brother, [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6204400 -

Quote:
Osama's were bullshit, he objected to our presence in Saudi Arabia when we were invited by the SA government to protect them from Saddam


The SA govt rules by brute force, their views on the US do NOT represent the vies held by their people. Thus Osama is speaking for the majority of SA citizens when he is against the US bases in that country. And if you know the real history of the situation it can be easily argued that our meddling created the saddam "threat" in the first place. So we, in a sense, created the very need for those bases in SA.

Quote:
Who the fuck is he to decide Saudi policy?


A better question would be, who the fuck is the saudi govt to decide saudi policy when they are a monarchy who does in no way whatsoever represent the views of the very people they govern. If SA was a democracy and represented the views of the majority, policy drafted by people like osama would rule the land and you damn well know it.


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa

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Re: Letter from Pat Tillmans brother, [Re: zorbman]
    #6207435 -

zorbman said:
Personally I would be embarrassed to offer something that flimsy as some sort of evidence. Laurie Mylroie is a neocon bootlicker with very little credibility on this issue. She has been on a partisan witch hunt to nail Saddam with anything and everything for over a decade.

"In what amounts to the discovery of a unified field theory of terrorism, Mylroie believes that Saddam was not only behind the '93 Trade Center attack, but also every anti-American terrorist incident of the past decade, from the bombings of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania to the leveling of the federal building in Oklahoma City to September 11 itself. She is, in short, a crackpot.."

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2003/0312.bergen.html

"Dr. Robert Leiken of the Nixon Center comments on the lack of evidence in her work: "Laurie has discovered Saddam’s hand in every major attack on US interests since the Persian Gulf War, including U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania and even the federal building in Oklahoma City. These allegations have all been definitively refuted by the FBI, the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) and other investigatory bodies..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurie_Mylroie



I didn't present the article as evidence, I presented it for the links contained within, which included the document itself. I have no idea who Laurie Mylroie is nor do I care that she licks my boots. Her assertions are corroborated in the links.
Quote:
The article you cited not once, but twice mentions the conclusions are only valid if "this translation holds up." Let me guess- they didn't hold up very well.


You can guess all you want to but that would pretty much sum up your effort. Try this, which is linked in the article.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1610012/posts?q=1&&page=301

Or you can see the document and translate it yourself. It's linked. My guess is that you would rather keep guessing. No surprise there.
Quote:
But cherrypicking and cooking of intelligence does seem to be a neocon pastime. Dick Cheney should hire her immediately.


Pointless bilge. The document either exists or it doesn't
Quote:
As for for a supposed terrorist threat inside Iraq there were a few terrorists from the 80's inside the country- hell there are terrorists in most countries of the world including the United States! I don't believe having a rest home for aged terrorists qualifies as assistance. (Unless you count providing dentures and walkers as support ).


Did you stop reading immediately after Nidal and Abbas? There was more. Salman Pak anyone? Don't be obtuse if you can help it. He clearly supported terrorists and he clearly wished to harm US interests, including an attempted assassination of a former president.
Quote:
In short this is awfully thin gruel. You have completely failed to prove your case that this shameful war was anything but optional.


Prove my case? To who? You? No evidence or facts will satisfy your ilk. And my evidence is impeccable. You are not my audience, you are my punching bag.


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Re: Letter from Pat Tillmans brother, [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #6207510 -

RosettaStoned said:
Quote:
Osama's were bullshit, he objected to our presence in Saudi Arabia when we were invited by the SA government to protect them from Saddam


The SA govt rules by brute force, their views on the US do NOT represent the vies held by their people. Thus Osama is speaking for the majority of SA citizens when he is against the US bases in that country. And if you know the real history of the situation it can be easily argued that our meddling created the saddam "threat" in the first place. So we, in a sense, created the very need for those bases in SA.


Yes yes yes the butterfly effect of world politics. If only we hadn't stepped on that poor butterfly on July 14th, 1967, or any other day you would like to pick, the world would be perfect. That's not an easy argument, it's a stupid one. Do you really think the Saudi people as a whole would prefer to live under Saddam, the most secular of the ruling nutlogs in the region? That is an absurd notion. They may or may not dislike us but that is what their fate would have been had we not intervened and saved their asses. What, you say they weren't invaded? Can you say N-E-X-T after Kuwait. Please, child, get real.
Quote:
Quote:
Who the fuck is he to decide Saudi policy?


A better question would be, who the fuck is the saudi govt to decide saudi policy when they are a monarchy who does in no way whatsoever represent the views of the very people they govern. If SA was a democracy and represented the views of the majority, policy drafted by people like osama would rule the land and you damn well know it.


Complete bullshit. If we didn't have any soldiers there Hussein would be king and Bin Ladenite religious whackjobs would be soil. The Saudi Govt is the Saudi Govt and until that changes they are the ones who decide, no matter what imitation revolutionaries like yourself, who wrap themselves in the mantle of some fictitious "People's Will" cloak. As if you know. They kissed our asses when we stopped saddam. You were what then, 8? Do better.


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Re: Letter from Pat Tillmans brother, [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6210200 -

Quote:
If only we hadn't stepped on that poor butterfly


I'm sure our involvement was just as accidental as stepping on a butterfly. Training (monarch), Funding (red rim), Weapons (florida purplewing), Special ops (viceroy), Propaganda (white admiral) and lets not forget War puppeteering (angled leafwing) - all these poor butterflys we stepped on. The guys at the CIA must have colorful smooshed spots on the soles of their $1000 shoes. Once again you demonstrate your classic right wing stance of the head in the sand.

Quote:
who wrap themselves in the mantle of some fictitious "People's Will" cloak


People's will cloak??? I can't believe you even went that far. That is your party's classic theme. Remember spreading democracy and liberty for the iraqis? How many times has bush stood up and spoke for the iraqi "people". The repubs practically invented the modern version of the "people's will" cloak. Way to project your own qualities on your opposition, almost exactly the strategy for speaking about terrorists coincidentally  :shocked:

Quote:
You were what then, 8? Do better


What else do you see in your crystal ball besides my age? Knowledge is universal and transends age but sadly in your case your universe can fit inside a suitcase. The same size suitcase that was given to saddam and bin laden full of cash numerous times by the CIA.


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa

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Re: Letter from Pat Tillmans brother, [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6210836 -

I didn't present the article as evidence, I presented it for the links contained within, which included the document itself.. Her [Laurie Mylroie] assertions are corroborated in the links.

So just post the relevant information. And you don't care who your source is? No wonder you swallow every neocon 'Justification of the Week' for this shameful war. Your standard of proof seems to be anyone who happens to agree with your opinion, credibility be damned. If a liberal did that you would be all over them and you know it.

And which assertions of Mylroie's are you referring to? That Saddam Hussein bombed the Oklahoma Federal Building and was behind 9/11? What is next? It was not a plane but a UFO that crashed into the Pentagon?

There was more. Salman Pak anyone?

Evidently you are unaware that Salman Pak (the supposed Iraq terrorist training camp) has been thoroughly debunked.

The Senate Select Committee on Intelligence has established that both the CIA and the DIA concluded that there was no evidence to support the claims that Salman Pak was such a camp:

http://intelligence.senate.gov/phaseiiaccuracy.pdf

You can guess all you want to but that would pretty much sum up your effort.

Sorry, but I am not going to do your research for you.

The link you provided took me to a right-wing message board with about 20 pages of posts. Is there something in particular you want me to look at amongst all those scribblings? What I read showed no references to any credible news source. I guess we are all just supposed to believe some neocon conspiracy theorist and her translator who is no doubt a nice guy.

And my evidence is impeccable.
:rofl2:


From what dungheap are you gathering your information?

So far your so-called "evidence" has consisted of the scrawl of a whackjob conspiracy theorist and a right-wing message board whose users appear to have all the mental acuity of Terry Schiavo.

Can you support your position by providing information from ANY reputable news outlet?
Sorry, the ramblings of a crackpot conspiracy theorist and dated right-wing rants hardly qualify as hard news.

Again you have utterly failed to prove your point that the Iraq war was anything but optional.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

Edited by zorbman (10/25/06 02:53 PM)

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Re: Letter from Pat Tillmans brother, [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #6211042 -

RosettaStoned said:
Quote:
If only we hadn't stepped on that poor butterfly


I'm sure our involvement was just as accidental as stepping on a butterfly. Training (monarch), Funding (red rim), Weapons (florida purplewing), Special ops (viceroy), Propaganda (white admiral) and lets not forget War puppeteering (angled leafwing) - all these poor butterflys we stepped on. The guys at the CIA must have colorful smooshed spots on the soles of their $1000 shoes. Once again you demonstrate your classic right wing stance of the head in the sand.


You are seriously mistaken if you think that the CIA and the rest of the US government is soley, or even largely, responsible for the state of affairs in the middle east.  I can't tell whether it's narcissism or paranoia.  The middle east was a nest of vipers for millenia.  And the whole notion of our universal disengagement from world affairs is so ridiculous as to be laughable.  Tell me again who has their head in the sand.  There are no islands, grashopper, not even the USA.
Quote:


Quote:
who wrap themselves in the mantle of some fictitious "People's Will" cloak


People's will cloak??? I can't believe you even went that far. That is your party's classic theme. Remember spreading democracy and liberty for the iraqis? How many times has bush stood up and spoke for the iraqi "people". The repubs practically invented the modern version of the "people's will" cloak. Way to project your own qualities on your opposition, almost exactly the strategy for speaking about terrorists coincidentally  :shocked:


Once again, you either can't understand a simple sentence or you don't want to.  YOU cannot speak for the Saudi people and neither can bin Laden.  Do you honestly think that the Saudi people would prefer to be ruled by saddam as opposed to having a few American soldiers stationed there?  That is the "people's will" cloak I refer to, the fallacious one you tried to sew out of whole cloth.  Total crap.
Quote:
Quote:
You were what then, 8? Do better


What else do you see in your crystal ball besides my age? Knowledge is universal and transends age but sadly in your case your universe can fit inside a suitcase. The same size suitcase that was given to saddam and bin laden full of cash numerous times by the CIA.


What crap, again.  When it was in our interests to oppose the soviet union in afghanistan we helped them.  When it was in our interests to oppose Iran we helped saddam.  You have zero historical context and are thus a babe in the woods utterly at a loss.  My universe was not born when I was, nor did it spring fully formed when I went to college. Yep, I'm pretty sure that it's narcissism.  Your utter lack of any ability to grasp historical context leads me to the conclusion that you think the world began with you and will end with you.  Too bad, that's always a waste.


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Re: Letter from Pat Tillmans brother, [Re: zorbman]
    #6211114 -

zorbman said:
I didn't present the article as evidence, I presented it for the links contained within, which included the document itself.. Her [Laurie Mylroie] assertions are corroborated in the links.

So just post the relevant information. And you don't care who your source is? No wonder you swallow every neocon 'Justification of the Week' for this shameful war. Your standard of proof seems to be anyone who happens to agree with your opinion, credibility be damned. If a liberal did that you would be all over them and you know it.

And which assertions of Mylroie's are you referring to? That Saddam Hussein bombed the Oklahoma Federal Building and was behind 9/11? What is next? It was not a plane but a UFO that crashed into the Pentagon?


I don't know anything at all about Mylroie, I don't care about Mylroie, and I didn't cite Mylroie, I cited Ed Morrissey who says that this is a translation of a document found in Iraq.  He gives a link to the actual document and another link to others in support of the translation.  I did your research for you, now all you have to do is read it.  Follow the links.
Quote:
There was more. Salman Pak anyone?

Evidently you are unaware that Salman Pak (the supposed Iraq terrorist training camp) has been thoroughly debunked.

The Senate Select Committee on Intelligence has established that both the CIA and the DIA concluded that there was no evidence to support the claims that Salman Pak was such a camp:

http://intelligence.senate.gov/phaseiiaccuracy.pdf



That link is buffoonery, not because the document is bullshit but because you seem to have some notion that I'm going to read the whole million page report to find your reference.  Surely you can find a specific link somewhere in the tardasphere.  I can find this one that says you're full of shit.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iraq/salman_pak.htm
Quote:
You can guess all you want to but that would pretty much sum up your effort.

Sorry, but I am not going to do your research for you.

The link you provided took me to a right-wing message board with about 20 pages of posts.


What the fuck are you talking about?  What link? Oh you mean the freerepublic link.  Here's a clue for you.  When it says "click here to read article", click there.  It's the top article.  Holy shit.
Quote:
Is there something in particular you want me to look at amongst all those scribblings? What I read showed no references to any credible news source. I guess we are all just supposed to believe some neocon conspiracy theorist and her translator who is no doubt a nice guy.

And my evidence is impeccable.
:rofl2:


From what dungheap are you gathering your information?

So far your so-called "evidence" has consisted of the scrawl of a whackjob conspiracy theorist and a right-wing message board whose users appear to have all the mental acuity of Terry Schiavo.

Can you support your position by providing information from ANY reputable news outlet?
Sorry, the ramblings of a crackpot conspiracy theorist and dated right-wing rants hardly qualify as hard news.

Again you have utterly failed to prove your point that the Iraq war was anything but optional.


And again you think there is any "prove" involved.  That doesn't exist in the world outside of mathematics.  A childish fairy tale notion.  If you have any reason to believe that the document was incorrectly translated, other than your "guess", feel free to chirp up.  I'm more than willing to drop that particular item from my arsenal if it is, in fact, incorrect.  But I doubt that it is.  Because I would have heard about it by now.  In fact, Morrissey would have retracted it himself if it was bullshit.  So, bring it.  Refute my evidence with evidence of it's falsity.  I hold my.......penis.  It's more fun than holding my breath and I'm far more likely to survive it.


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Re: Letter from Pat Tillmans brother, [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6212480 -

Here's a clue for you. When it says "click here to read article", click there. It's the top article.

So just post the link. Good lord.
I feel dirty now and will need a thorough shower after unnecessary contact with that right-wing crap.

I did look at the lengthy document which is written in Arabic and as far as I can tell is a recipe for camel stew.

I can find this one that says you're full of shit.

I read the article- it was from a news source I am unfamiliar with and it was undated and unsigned which I find unusual..the only indication I have of when it was written is based upon the references cited which range from 1997- Sep. 24, 2002. (In other words prior to the debunking which I referenced earlier).

Regarding my own link [ trumpets sound ] demonstrating that the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence established that both the CIA and the DIA concluded that there was no evidence to support the claims that Salman Pak was an Iraqi terrorist camp go to page 108 of the article for confimation. (Just enter the number "108" into the box at the bottom of the pdf file.)

Here. I will even re-post the link for you:
http://intelligence.senate.gov/phaseiiaccuracy.pdf

Refute my evidence with evidence of it's [the document] falsity.

Sorry pal.

You made the claim, you provide the evidence to support your claim.

Give us something substantive from a reputable news source in English please.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

Edited by zorbman (10/26/06 12:05 AM)

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Re: Letter from Pat Tillmans brother, [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6212619 -

Quote:
You are seriously mistaken if you think that the CIA and the rest of the US government is soley, or even largely, responsible for the state of affairs in the middle east.


Under that reasoning then we are not even responsible for the state of affairs in europe then either right? Oh wait, that was a success story so the US can take credit for that. But when our meddling brings about destruction and failure then it's not the least bit our fault? OK  :rolleyes:

Success - we did it. Failure - we did not. Check.

Quote:
Do you honestly think that the Saudi people would prefer to be ruled by saddam


Saddam ruling over SA was in no way ever the remotest possibility. You are just scraping together improbable worst case scenarios to make US actions in the middle east appear as something other than what they have been - a disaster.

Even suggesting saddam was going to turn his armies on SA is pure fantasy in your repub inspired fear-ridden mind. Saddam straight up told the US he was going to invade Kuwait, we said "we have no opinion". Thus misleading him into thinking he had the green light. He was used to invading his neighbors, after all we sent him against iran. He just didn't realize he was being hung out to dry.

Quote:
When it was in our interests to oppose the soviet union in afghanistan we helped them. When it was in our interests to oppose Iran we helped saddam.


And when it was in our interest to kick off the "new american century" we used them once again, except this time we played the boogyman card. The "protecting our friends" card was all used up in viet nam. No honor is left all the govt has to use now is fear, it's sad really. Mostly sad because people like you buy into it. We have nothing to fear from the middle-east and never have. America is not on an isolated island but there is not one country on this planet that could conquer us, thus there is nothing to fear except the threats from within.

The only one who gained from 9/11 was our govt. And the only thing arab militants are a threat to is US global agenda in the region. Go ahead and grasp onto the party line, you won't be the 1st and you certainly won't be the last. Maybe when the empire falls you will look back and see the road to ruin but as long as you can live the good life you will follow the system blindly, you will have plenty of company up there.


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"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa

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Re: Letter from Pat Tillmans brother, [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #6212646 -

While I think the fear we have of the Middle East is overstated, I bet the victims of 9/11 would disagree with you about the no fear whatsoever part.

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Re: Letter from Pat Tillmans brother, [Re: Redstorm]
    #6216196 -

Redstorm said:
While I think the fear we have of the Middle East is overstated, I bet the victims of 9/11 would disagree with you about the no fear whatsoever part.


As far as I and many others are concerned, it has not yet been proven middle-easterners were solely responsible for 9/11. If parts of this govt were behind 9/11 then any 9/11 families who fear arabs for their loved ones deaths have been misled and are incorrectly placing their fear/anger on wrong parties.

This is not some crack pot conspiracy idea - it is a very real possibility. And things like PNAC and the unwillingness to be open about the tragedy just make the possibility all the more real.


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa

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Re: Letter from Pat Tillmans brother, [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #6216479 -

RosettaStoned said:
Redstorm said:
While I think the fear we have of the Middle East is overstated, I bet the victims of 9/11 would disagree with you about the no fear whatsoever part.


As far as I and many others are concerned, it has not yet been proven middle-easterners were solely responsible for 9/11. If parts of this govt were behind 9/11 then any 9/11 families who fear arabs for their loved ones deaths have been misled and are incorrectly placing their fear/anger on wrong parties.

This is not some crack pot conspiracy idea - it is a very real possibility. And things like PNAC and the unwillingness to be open about the tragedy just make the possibility all the more real.


:cuckoo:


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Asshole

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Re: Letter from Pat Tillmans brother, [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #6216509 -

I dont think the government ever orchestrated the attack, however i think they either knew about it or downplayed the attacks like a FDR ala Pearl Harbor type deal.

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Re: Letter from Pat Tillmans brother, [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
    #6217645 -

They've done it before and planned it before. Operations northwoods, USS liberty, Tonkin gulf incident...research the history. And even if they did the FDR thing and knowingly left us wide open to attack that is just as bad in my book. Least FDR let the military be attacked, they are fair game in war. If these dirt bags knowingly left innocent civilians be murdered so they could rally the country for war the are just as guilty if not more so.


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa

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