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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: GOP threatens with Terrorism [Re: Zogby]
    #6205693 -

"Whatever else history may say about me when I’m gone, I hope it will record that I appealed to your best hopes, not your worst fears; to your confidence rather than your doubts. My dream is that you will travel the road ahead with liberty’s lamp guiding your steps and opportunity’s arm steadying your way." -President Ronald Reagan, 1992.



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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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Re: GOP threatens with Terrorism [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #6206145 -

Quote:
For the key to terrorism is not the act-but the fear of the act. That is why bin Laden and his deputies and his imitators are forever putting together videotape statements and releasing virtual infomercials with dire threats and heart-stopping warnings.

But why is the Republican Party imitating them? Bin Laden puts out what amounts to a commercial of fear; the Republicans put out what is unmistakable as a commercial of fear.


Exactly. Those of radical Islam release these tapes (as shown on the campaign advert of the original post) not as threats but to instill fear. They are not divulging their plans of attack. They are not giving us a warning. They are simply attempting to fuck with our heads because that is all they can do and they recognize how powerful such a game is. They know how to play the media. They know how warped our minds get from the media.

Those who think the videotapes are of actual, imminent threats (i.e. Phred) are not thinking. They are simply echoing and therefore strengthening these attempts to freak us out either out of ignorance or political gain.

Yes, we have been attack by radical Islamists and will probably again, especially in the wake of the disaster of the Iraq invasion. But has there ever been a warning before an attack by al-Qaeda or al-Qaeda-inspired groups? Not to my knowledge. Their trademark is multiple attacks on different fronts by surprise. Their second phase of attack is releasing empty threats of further attacks in order to terrorize the populace.

Do not be fooled by the PR game going on (that of the republicans or the radical islamists).

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Re: GOP threatens with Terrorism [Re: Vvellum]
    #6206172 -

Quote:
Those who think the videotapes are of actual, imminent threats (i.e. Phred) are not thinking.


Phred not thinking??? Say it ain't so!  :lol:  :rofl2:  :rofl:


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa

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Re: GOP threatens with Terrorism [Re: Phred]
    #6206181 -

Quote:
Even your average knuckle dragging Bush voter can see that if America had better (i.e. Dem) policies towards the Muslim world, there would be less reason for the more hotheaded ones to make threats and Americans would be safer.


did you just endorse the policies of the democratic party in regard to the Muslim world?

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Re: GOP threatens with Terrorism [Re: Vvellum]
    #6207373 -

bi0 says:

Quote:
Those who think the videotapes are of actual, imminent threats (i.e. Phred) are not thinking.


"Imminent"? perhaps not. "Actual"? Certainly.

Are you saying the 9/11 attacks satisfied them? That the 9/11 attacks were the final ones? That threats made after the 9/11 attacks are mere bluster?

For people who believe that, from the perspective of making America safer it doesn't matter whether you elect Republican congress critters or Democrat ones -- the 'splodeydopes have shot their wad as far as America is concerned (though clearly not where other Western countries are concerned) and America can go back to doing what it was doing before the first WTC bombing, the African embassy attacks, the USS Cole, and 9/11. Crisis over.

While some folks may believe the jihadis are finished attacking American civilians, the majority of Americans feel otherwise. For them it is not an issue to be ignored when it comes to choosing their representatives. But by running that ad the Republicans run the risk of prodding voters who disagree with the Republican stance on how best to handle terrorists to get off their butts and vote Democrat -- because those voters think the Dems have a better strategy for dealing with jihadis. This ad is a sword with two edges.

Quote:
Yes, we have been attack by radical Islamists and will probably again, especially in the wake of the disaster of the Iraq invasion.


Then why the objection to the ad? If it is true that they will probably attack again, then the Repubs have really slit their own throats by reminding the voters that the jihadis are making these threats because of things Republicans are doing. The way to buy off the jihadis is to elect Dems who will stop doing those things the jihadis object to. Problem solved. And it didn't cost the Dem war chest a nickel.



Phred


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Re: GOP threatens with Terrorism [Re: Vvellum]
    #6207382 -

Quote:
did you just endorse the policies of the democratic party in regard to the Muslim world?


I was putting myself into the shoes of a Libbie. Do Libbies not think that if America had better (i.e. Dem) policies towards the Muslim world, there would be less reason for the more hotheaded ones to make threats and Americans would be safer?



Phred


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Re: GOP threatens with Terrorism [Re: Phred]
    #6207629 -

Quote:
Are you saying the 9/11 attacks satisfied them? That the 9/11 attacks were the final ones? That threats made after the 9/11 attacks are mere bluster?


No, re-read my post. The videotaped warnings were transmitted to spread fear among westerners. They are not warnings of actual attacks. Has al-Qaeda transmitted a warning before an attack? No. Have warnings come to pass with nothing happening? Yes.

Quote:
For people who believe that, from the perspective of making America safer it doesn't matter whether you elect Republican congress critters or Democrat ones -- the 'splodeydopes have shot their wad as far as America is concerned (though clearly not where other Western countries are concerned) and America can go back to doing what it was doing before the first WTC bombing, the African embassy attacks, the USS Cole, and 9/11. Crisis over.


Well, that is not my position. I believe radical Islamists can and will strike again. I simply do not believe these videotaped messages are actual warnings of such attacks. They are playing the media to spread fear (which is a component of terrorism). Republicans who echo these warnings are assisting them with that.

Quote:
Then why the objection to the ad?


They utilize fear-mongering toward a political gain. And I object to the notion that the ads are simply public service annoucements. That is such attorney-esque hair-splitting. The ad has context and an agenda. Of course, the GOP has an immediate political agenda.

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Re: GOP threatens with Terrorism [Re: Phred]
    #6207657 -

Quote:
Do Libbies not think that if America had better (i.e. Dem) policies towards the Muslim world, there would be less reason for the more hotheaded ones to make threats and Americans would be safer?


I think liberals hold the position that unjust policies towards the Muslim world (support for Israel, support for oppressive regimes, the failure of Iraq, etc) feed the fire that originates with the once-small ideology of the so-called Islamists. The point is to practice just policies around the world and marginalize the extreme elements to the point of irrelevency like other threats (radical left-wing terrorism, neo-nazi terrorism, etc) - all the while, defending the country from real threats and fighting wars out of necessity, not want.

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Re: GOP threatens with Terrorism [Re: zorbman]
    #6207693 -

zorbman said:
"Whatever else history may say about me when I’m gone, I hope it will record that I appealed to your best hopes, not your worst fears; to your confidence rather than your doubts. My dream is that you will travel the road ahead with liberty’s lamp guiding your steps and opportunity’s arm steadying your way."  -President Ronald Reagan, 1992.


So, what exactly did Ronald Reagan accomplish as a president? :smirk:

:levitate:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: GOP threatens with Terrorism [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6207740 -

While I think it's important to address terrorism as a problem, we can't dwell on every threat cause the more important issue is the ideological one. We can increase security in airports but they can still detonate a dirty bomb at the Canadian border. We can increase pat-downs at football games but thats not gonna stop a tour bus from blowing up in front of the stadium. We can increase the number of police officers on the streets but domestic terrorists such as Tim McVeigh can still pop up. The point is that we can attack this from a security perspective but we will never eliminate the threat because we live in an open society that values freedom. The real threat is ideological and that's what the Republicans and Democrats must attack.


--------------------


"We know where they (Weapons of Mass Destruction) are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat."

-Donald Rumsfeld

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Re: GOP threatens with Terrorism [Re: Zogby]
    #6208052 -

Zogby said:
The real threat is ideological and that's what the Republicans and Democrats must attack.


I think that the last thing we must do to help diminish this global conflict is to attack someone or something (we've done enough damage already :frown:), however i agree with everything else you said. :thumbup:

Going bananas over every little video tape and Fox News alert is only going to increase fear and tension within our own country and through our fearful reactions possibly the rest of the world.

Quote:
The point is that we can attack this from a security perspective but we will never eliminate the threat because we live in an open society that values freedom.


A convienient paradox for those seeking greater and greater power.


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Re: GOP threatens with Terrorism [Re: Vvellum]
    #6208108 -

bi0 writes:

Quote:
The videotaped warnings were transmitted to spread fear among westerners. They are not warnings of actual attacks. Has al-Qaeda transmitted a warning before an attack? No. Have warnings come to pass with nothing happening? Yes.


Have you actually watched the ad? These are not "warnings", they are threats -- declarations of intent and exhortations to The Faithful to kill Americans. You have an odd definition of "warning".

Quote:
I simply do not believe these videotaped messages are actual warnings of such attacks.


Nor do I. They instead show -- quite clearly -- that the threat from jihadis is not some public relations ploy by the Republicans to hang on to power, but an honest desire on the part of influential jihadi leaders to continue murdering Americans.

Quote:
They utilize fear-mongering toward a political gain.


You have an absurdly over-broad definition of "fear-mongering". All politicians utilize "fear-mongering" when it gets right down to it. The Dems try to play on the "fear" of people that Bush's proposed Social Security reform would leave helpless old retired folks scrounging in the gutter. Or the "fear" your job will be "outsourced" to India. Or the "fear" you won't be able to afford heating oil this winter. Etc. etc.

Quote:
And I object to the notion that the ads are simply public service annoucements. That is such attorney-esque hair-splitting. The ad has context and an agenda.


It is not a partisan ad. You and I and the majority of Americans recognize there is an actual and real and ongoing threat from the jihadis. It's just that the Republican approach to handling the threat differs from the Dem approach. Obviously the Republicans will say their approach to the threat is better than the Dem's approach. But the reverse is also true -- the Dems say their approach is better. I can't help but note you have completely ignored my point about the ad being every bit as likely to fire up the Democrat base to get out and vote so that their approach to handling jihadis will have more support in Congress.

I say again -- if the exact same ad had been put out by the Dems, you wouldn't say boo.



Phred


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Re: GOP threatens with Terrorism [Re: Phred]
    #6208280 -

Quote:
I say again -- if the exact same ad had been put out by the Dems, you wouldn't say boo.


I certainly would, if it was the exact same ad. In this case it just happened to be GOP. In the longrun it doesn't matter who or what party is doing what, they answer both to the same master. The apparent fact that foreign threats are being transmitted and intentionally redirected by political campaignists into the sanctity of our homes is what I find disturbing. This does more harm than good in my humble opinion. :frown:

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Re: GOP threatens with Terrorism [Re: Phred]
    #6208909 -

Quote:
Have you actually watched the ad?


Yes. Twice. I see images and quotes of both warnings against the US/west and threats against the US/west.

Quote:
These are not "warnings", they are threats -- declarations of intent and exhortations to The Faithful to kill Americans. You have an odd definition of "warning".


Threats and warnings were in the video. You can play semantics, but regardless, the objective of their video transmissions are pleas to the Muslim world and threats/warnings to the US/west. As such, the tapes are designed to instill fear. Ayman al-Zawahiri recently spoke of how half of the Islamists' battle "is taking place in the battlefield of the media."

Quote:
They instead show -- quite clearly -- that the threat from jihadis is not some public relations ploy by the Republicans to hang on to power, but an honest desire on the part of influential jihadi leaders to continue murdering Americans.


Jeez, man. Did I ever say the Republicans themselves were responsible for the al-Qaeda video transmissions? No. All I said was the Republicans are echoing the "fear-play" of the radical Islamists toward their own political gain.

The GOP is not informing us of anything new. They are simply taking the "fear-play" of radical Islam and repackaging it into a political ad. In effect, they are assisting radical Islam and attempting to pull support for the party for the mid-term elections.

Quote:
You have an absurdly over-broad definition of "fear-mongering".


I do? Seems as though a fear-monger is someone who is inclined to use fear to achieve an end, even if the subject of fear has little substance (i.e. video transmissions of the Islamists' media operation).

Quote:
All politicians utilize "fear-mongering" when it gets right down to it.


Yes.

Quote:
It is not a partisan ad.


So, the GOP is an unbiased source of information and a public servant? Please. They are playing the fear card as an attempt to persuade the voting public to "stay the course" (i.e. vote Republican). I see a subtle GOP political ad that was probably toned-down in the studio, not some altruistic public service annoucement. Do you really believe the GOP would put out an ad without discussing strategy and the full impact of the ad? Everything is highly scrutinized and designed with utmost purpose and effect.

Have you ever participated in a focus group?

Quote:
I can't help but note you have completely ignored my point about the ad being every bit as likely to fire up the Democrat base to get out and vote so that their approach to handling jihadis will have more support in Congress.


Perhaps, as an unintented consequence. I can see people, undecided voters maybe, realizing that the Republicans have done a terrible job in the last few years focusing on Iraq rather than al-Qaeda. These possible consequences do not change the intent.

Quote:
I say again -- if the exact same ad had been put out by the Dems, you wouldn't say boo.


I do not fully support either party line. But if the end of the ad said dnc.org instead, I'd feel the same way: fear-mongering and assisting al-Qaeda with their threats and warnings. Since when was I democrat?

Edited by bi0 (10/24/06 11:19 PM)

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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