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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Temptress]
    #5504757 -

Yes, of course, on the outermost surface of things. That level of meaning would supply the image that those in need of parabolic teaching require. But is there anything profound, wise, spiritual or metaphysical in that level alone? No. The fact that the Bible is considered scripural means that its content is meaningful not mundane, sacred, not profane. Learn to look beneath the surface when you read scriptures in Jewish, Christian and Muslim works.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5504774 -

therein lies the trouble, with thousands of branches of christianity and judaism eahc proclaimimng there interpretation of the metaphor is the correct one - and frequently willing to demosntrate their superior stance through violence.

i prefer to think he was human and had a bad day. no need to kill anyone over that.


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i have less ego than you do!

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Silversoul]
    #5504784 -

Paradigm said:
In this particular context, it would not make sense if interpreted literally.


Temptress said:
could not a man walking through the desert for days ACTUALLY be hungry and then be angry when his needs were not fulfilled?



Paradigm said:
Maybe, but why would someone bother putting it in the gospels if it didnt have some deeper spiritual meaning?


Why would they? Well, now, there could be a plethora of reasons why it would be included. Perhaps they wished to demonstrate that even Jesus was capable of lessening his degree of awareness when one's natural, bodily needs went unfufilled?

There is a great multitude of interpretations that can be drawn.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Temptress]
    #5504809 -

Temptress said:
"On the following day, when they came from Bethany, he (Jesus) was hungry. And seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to see if he could find anything on it. When he came to it, he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. And he said to it, 'May no one ever eat fruit from you again.'"

                                                Mark 11:12


how can he be called a zen master by some when he denise that which is and gets angry at a tree for being a tree and following nature? seems more like a petulant child than an enlightened sage.



BTW gotta say, I love that signature of yours..

makes me think of this quote "If it was not for all them people thinking they know it all, it would have been so much easier for those of us who do!" ..

gotta LOVE that irony! :wink:


and to give a answer to your question;

even a zen master, can get angry,..

finish the story..

:tongue: :thumbup:

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Silversoul]
    #5504821 -

Paradigm said:
Temptress said:
could not a man walking through the desert for days ACTUALLY be hungry and then be angry when his needs were not fulfilled?


Maybe, but why would someone bother putting it in the gospels if it didnt have some deeper spiritual meaning?



18 Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered.
19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
20 And when the disciples saw [it], they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this [which is done] to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.


it did have meaning. supposedly the tree actually withered away as Jesus vented his frustration. it's not everyday that you see something like that.

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Temptress]
    #5504862 -

"Cleave a piece of wood, and there I am. Lift a stone, and there I am."

Human? Who knows. What I do see though, is that the Mystery of the Christ backdrops any significance the man Jesus may have had. Even if Jesus didn't exist in the sense most people believe, the very Idea of the Logos of God becoming clothed in the flesh still stands as an "unmanifested" idea.


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Deviate]
    #5504877 -

Miracles are 'midrash.' Midrash is a literary device which uses colorful descriptions to 'highlight' or 'illuminate' a spiritual principle. Faith is an attitude of great power, but, as Ram Dass once suggested about this verse, by the time one has the faith to move mountains, one realizes that at one's Essence, we are the ONE who put the mountain there in the first place! And so the mountain remains. Meanwhile, we are transformed by the Realization.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5504926 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
Miracles are 'midrash.' Midrash is a literary device which uses colorful descriptions to 'highlight' or 'illuminate' a spiritual principle. Faith is an attitude of great power, but, as Ram Dass once suggested about this verse, by the time one has the faith to move mountains, one realizes that at one's Essence, we are the ONE who put the mountain there in the first place! And so the mountain remains. Meanwhile, we are transformed by the Realization.


i dissagree, miracles are the equivalent of siddhis and the indian teachers will tell you they are not simply "literary devices". whether you believe they are possible or not is up to you but it's very clear to me that at least in some cases they were meant to be taken as literal happenings. i am not saying the bible never uses 'colorful language' to illustate a spiritual principle, only that that is not an adequate explanation for miracles. if anything, it's an attempt to reconcile one's beleifs.

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Temptress]
    #5504959 -

Temptress said:
"On the following day, when they came from Bethany, he (Jesus) was hungry. And seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to see if he could find anything on it. When he came to it, he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. And he said to it, 'May no one ever eat fruit from you again.'"

                                                Mark 11:12


how can he be called a zen master by some when he denise that which is and gets angry at a tree for being a tree and following nature? seems more like a petulant child than an enlightened sage.



BTW, look in to all the different translations..

:grin: :thumbup:

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Deviate]
    #5505032 -

I've found that miracles serve the purpose of illuminating the nature of existence. To allow a story of one of Jesus' miracles of healing the sick, blind or lame for example is to polish the divine imagination. It is like in the Matrix where Neo is being taught to manipulate objects with his mind - he first has to believe that he can manipulate the object. The function of miracles as I see it is a symbolic attempt to destroy identification with material existence. They act as various alarm clocks coming from an otherly reality, penetrating deep within a dream. Ever have the redundent beeping of your alarm clock infiltrate a dream, with the beeping becoming more and more pitched until you recognize what it is and you are immediately awakened?


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Basilides]
    #5505075 -

I've found that miracles serve the purpose of illuminating the nature of existence. To allow a story of one of Jesus' miracles of healing the sick, blind or lame for example is to polish the divine imagination. It is like in the Matrix where Neo is being taught to manipulate objects with his mind - he first has to believe that he can manipulate the object. The function of miracles as I see it is a symbolic attempt to destroy identification with material existence. They act as various alarm clocks coming from an otherly reality, penetrating deep within a dream.

this is a good interpretation. nevertheless, it's quite clear to me that they often represented as actually having happened and actually being possible. buddha and most other spiritual teachers have always taught not to pursue them because its not conductive to enlightenment but they have also confirmed their existence.

Ever have the redundent beeping of your alarm clock infiltrate a dream, with the beeping becoming more and more pitched until you recognize what it is and you are immediately awakened?

no, i always awaken at the first sound of my alarm.

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Deviate]
    #5507385 -

Siddhis belong to the Hindu tradition. Buddhists prefer to ignore them altogether. Yes, I've read Miracle of Love about Neem Karolie Baba after decades of familiarity with Ram Dass' work (my late father also read the book and called the stories "Bubba-monsas" - 'grandfather stories,' in Yiddish).

The Psi Functions (telepathy, clairvoyance, bi-location, etc.) belong to occult traditions the world over. These may all be real - I have experienced 'ring-like-a-bell-in-the-head' telepathy on 5 or 6 memorable occasions (most are archived here I trust), and I've had precognition, precognitive dreams as well. These things and others I am willing to accept with little difficulty. Walking on water is told in Hindu and Buddhist stories as well, but that does not mean it is a siddhi. It is like lotus blossoms springing up beneath baby Buddha's first steps. Buddhists don't call that 'midrash,' but it is illuminative writing nevertheless.

I am talking about parting of the Red Sea, pillars of fire and smoke, staffs being turned into serpents, holy fire (Seraphim) manifesting on a bush, etc. These writings are not about siddhis, although staffs turning into serpents is both thaumaturgy (the Pharoah's sorcerers) and theurgy (Moses' divinely-channelled magic) - both of which do fall under 'occult powers' which would be called siddhis. These theophanies of God are midrashic as far as I am concerned. You are free to interpret these supernatural events as historical, but that is not my interpretive choice.

Siddhis fall under the 'psychic' domain, whereas 'jnana' - gnosis - comes under the domain of the 'spiritual' in that it constitutes God-Realization. Fakirs can master control over their psyches and apparently others' as well, but they are not necessarily spiritual individuals, especially if they increase 'maya' and deceive people. I, however, have never experienced the 'spell' of a fakir so I am speculating based on what I've read.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5507992 -

i am not talking about the parting of the red sea, holy fire, etc. i'm talking about jesus displaying powers such as healing the sick. this was meant to be taken literally as far as i'm concerned and it is considered a siddhi. buddha acknowledged the existence of siddhis and warned people not to pursue them because as you said, they fall under the psychic domain and are not conductive to enlightenment. to argue that all the accounts of saints and sages performing miraculous healings are instances of people using colorful language really makes little sense.

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Deviate]
    #5508195 -

Deviate said:
i am not talking about the parting of the red sea, holy fire, etc. I'm talking about Jesus displaying powers such as healing the sick. this was meant to be taken literally as far as I'm concerned and it is considered a siddhi. Buddha acknowledged the existence of siddhis and warned people not to pursue them because as you said, they fall under the psychic domain and are not conductive to enlightenment. to argue that all the accounts of saints and sages performing miraculous healing are instances of people using colorful language really makes little sense.


This is a little incorrect. Buddha did not warn people against the nature of the siddhi's being something wrong. Neither did he say that they weren't conductive to enlightenment. Buddha said that they were signposts along the way. His warning was about not getting attached to or any temporary condition as this becomes an obstacle toward the ultimate realization of Buddhahood.

In the Vinaya(guideline for monks and nuns), the Buddha warned that displaying ones attainments to those who are not ready to see them is a mistake, as it can actually cause harm to oneself and others (Jesus as a fine example), if being/s that don't have open enough minds experience such things.

But really they are not miracles in the western sense of the word, with its Christian connotation.The Buddha said that it is "our minds that create this world" and as such, it is logical to assert, that once one learns to understand and tame thier mind, as a consequence ones confusion of conditoned existence is removed, and gradually, through this revolution of the inidividual, more control naturally and spontainiously occurs over ones recognised illusory manifestation.

If reality really is like a dream, and our minds really do create our "so called realities" then truly our potential must be totally unlimited in its capacity to be able to manifest such a marvelous and intricate display.

Edited by Sinbad (04/12/06 06:19 PM)

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Sinbad]
    #5508219 -

Quote:
and our minds really do create our "so called realities"


our minds merely 'create' our interpretations of reality; not the substance itself. we do not 'manifest' the stars whcih were here long before we were.


--------------------
i have less ego than you do!

Edited by Temptress (04/12/06 04:06 PM)

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Temptress]
    #5508277 -

If both mind and matter are fundamentally empty of inherent self existence, then there is no difference in nature between them. Like the clear and limpid quality of a mirror, non-duality manifests infinite reflections. Conceputal interpretations of reality are like reflections, as are the manifestations of physical objects.


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Edited by Sinbad (04/12/06 05:18 PM)

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Sinbad]
    #5508683 -

"Deviate said:
i am not talking about the parting of the red sea, holy fire, etc. I'm talking about Jesus displaying powers such as healing the sick. this was meant to be taken literally as far as I'm concerned and it is considered a siddhi. Buddha acknowledged the existence of siddhis and warned people not to pursue them because as you said, they fall under the psychic domain and are not conductive to enlightenment. to argue that all the accounts of saints and sages performing miraculous healing are instances of people using colorful language really makes little sense. "


I take a theology class...This is incorect. They are not meant to be "miracles" in the sense that we know the word. They are signs and enlightenments of human nature. Each of the 7 "signs" (7 is the number of fulfilment...) is meant to illuminate the possibility of the Kingdom of God and what it will be like. Sure a lot of the teachings are literal, but lots of the stories and mircales and symbolic.


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5508709 -



I take a theology class...This is incorect. They are not meant to be "miracles" in the sense that we know the word. They are signs and enlightenments of human nature. Each of the 7 "signs" (7 is the number of fulfilment...) is meant to illuminate the possibility of the Kingdom of God and what it will be like. Sure a lot of the teachings are literal, but lots of the stories and mircales and symbolic.



what is incorrect? the fact that many sages have claimed the existence of siddhis, including abilities such as healing the sick? even the dalai lama says these things are possible, NOT just metaphors. and yes, siddhis are signs and enlightenments of human nature. that is the sense in which i know the word. what sense are you speaking of?

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Sinbad]
    #5508745 -

This is a little incorrect. Buddha did not warn people against the nature of the siddhi's being something wrong. He stated that they weren't conductive to enlightenment.

that's exactly what i said/meant. i didn't say there was anything wrong with them.


Buddha said that they were signposts along the way. His warning was about not getting attached to or any temporary condition as this becomes an obstacle toward the ultimate realization of Buddhahood.

i only brought this up because markos said buddhists prerfered to ignore them completely. i don't think thats entirely correct. i agree with what you're saying.

In the Vinaya(guideline for monks and nuns), the Buddha warned that displaying ones attainments to those who are not ready to see them is a mistake, as it can actually cause harm to oneself and others (Jesus as a fine example), if being/s that don't have open enough minds experience such things.

But really they are not miracles in the western sense of the word, with its Christian connotation.The Buddha said that it is "our minds that create this world" and as such, it is logical to assert, that once one learns to understand and tame thier mind, as a consequence ones confusion of conditoned existence is removed, and gradually, through this revolution of the inidividual, more control naturally and spontainiously occurs over ones recognised illusory manifestation.

If reality really is like a dream, and our minds really do create our "so called realities" then truly our potential must be totally unlimited in its capacity to be able to manifest such a marvelous and intricate display.

correct but technically if you wanted to call them ''miracles'' you could, i prefer to call them siddhis. all that must be understood is that these abilities are our natural abilities and can be developed by anyone, not just jesus. and jesus even says this: ''he that believeth on me shall do the works that i do and greater works he shall do for i go unto my father''. and in the fig tree passage i posted before he also says that you too can do what he does.

i completely understand people having a hard time belieiving in siddhis, what am i arguing against is people saying they are just exagerations or colorful language. to me that just seems like a dumbing down of spiritual teachings to make them seem more believable, like saying jesus wasn't really a spiritual teacher he was a wise moral philosopher.

Edited by Deviate (04/12/06 06:10 PM)

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Re: jesus denies current reality and throws a hissy fit [Re: Deviate]
    #5508849 -

Sorry, my mistake, i have correct and now it reads "Neither did he say that they weren't conductive to enlightenment. " .He stated that attachment to those attainments is non-conductive, not the siddhis themselves.

There is a story about a disciple of the Buddha, who after attaining some accomplishment in mediatation, had the power to control the elements to some degree. He was very proud of his attainments, and displayed them often, attracting many students. When he walked on water, he was so pleased that he had the thought "Not even the Buddha could do this". At that moment, due to his obscurations, he lost his power instantly, and sank into the water. After which he recognised his mistake and resumed his practice, vowing never to display his spiritual attainments flagrantly again.


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Edited by Sinbad (04/13/06 06:39 AM)

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