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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Placating self-pity.
    #5215604 - 01/23/06 09:59 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

So, what is more helpful to someone? agreeing with their current state of presumed shittiness, or risking that you might hurt their feelings (even from those who claim they dont care about anything anymore) by telling them something that has a valid point in a harsh way?

Or how about when someone is wallowing in self-pity, and you proceed to tell them how the "understand and empathize" after a lengthy report of how shitty your life was? thats helpful right? I know when i feel shitty, the thing that makes me happy is someone having pity on me, or just simply empathizing..... right?

Is it also highly damaging to tell that person how pathetic, self-indulgent, and out-of-perspective they are being? or are we supposed to bite our tongue and instead tell them that yes, there is a light at the end of the tunnel, look at the glass as half full, pep up, it will all be ok, everything will be alright, I care, I love you, cheer up, life has its up and downs, look on the bright side of life?

Im seriously wondering, because recently I have found that my entire notion of what HELPING is, is wrong.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Placating self-pity. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5215622 - 01/23/06 10:04 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

If you have found that your notion of helping is wrong, then just change it. It's very simple. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Placating self-pity. [Re: Icelander]
    #5215634 - 01/23/06 10:08 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

no, you see, I didnt say I thought it was wrong, I FOUND out that it was wrong.

I still don't see how it is wrong, which is why I am asking.

care to answer any of the other questions i posed?


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Placating self-pity. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5215653 - 01/23/06 10:12 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Pity party! Bring your own tears!


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: Placating self-pity. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5215718 - 01/23/06 10:30 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Hey psilocyberin, I'm depressed and an alcoholic due to a genetic predisposition. Can you help me, man?


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OfflinejustAkid
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Re: Placating self-pity. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5215738 - 01/23/06 10:37 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

IMO, when others are suffering I think are most natural reaction is to be compassionate towards them. I think that if you act of Love no further harm will come of your actions.

I know the Bible isn't too popular around P&S, but "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."


--------------------
Trust thyself.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Placating self-pity. [Re: justAkid]
    #5215761 - 01/23/06 10:43 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

did your parents never do something to you, or enforce something that you didnt like out of love?

love isnt always hearts, chocolate and snuggling in pajamas.

I dont see where one has to trade compassion for honesty either.

also, does anyone want to discuss this without snide remarks (justakid excluded)?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Placating self-pity. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5215893 - 01/23/06 11:15 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I don't think you seriously want to find out anything of the sort. I have just spent time with you in PM and I am convinced of that beyond any doubt I might have had.

You paint a pretty unrealistic picture of what happened in the P&M forum as people who empathized with the poster also did give him advice on how to proceed. Nobody was just sucking up to him as you have portrayed us here.  The fact that a Mod deleted some of your "helpful" post and warned you about further "help" should tell you something, but it did not.

Why would you want to hear from me anyway as you have lost your respect for me, remember. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Placating self-pity. [Re: Icelander]
    #5216560 - 01/24/06 02:53 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

This is a valid thread, and you have derailed it.

I am not exaggerating what went on either.

what is it called when one ideology supresses all other ideologies in pursuit of total control?

I also recall you and the others being reprimanded by a Moderator. One acted out of emotion and personal bias towards me, the other acted with unbias and did the right thing.... ill let you decide which one is which.

Now, if your done derailing my thread, id like to get back to the topic: Is it helpful, in any way, to placate someones self-pity? is that supportive of their want to change? Is empathy and a kind word more proactive than brutal honesty?

When did we trade off honesty for walking on eggshells? When you have a booger hanging out your nose, do you want honesty or politeness and aversion?


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InvisibleVirgilKane
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Re: Placating self-pity. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5216806 - 01/24/06 07:02 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Is it helpful, in any way, to placate someones self-pity? is that supportive of their want to change? Is empathy and a kind word more proactive than brutal honesty?




It seems to me that the main factor when dealing with this is the persons intention. Do they truly want help or are they looking for pity. While it's not always easy to differentiate between the two, if it's vague then I think we should err on the side of the former.

For someone that truly wants help, empathy can go a long way. Showing someone that yes, you have been where they are and have overcome it and made it through to the other side gives them hope and seeing how it was done can give them a direction. Especially in someone young. It lets them know that they are not the only ones who've felt this before and makes them feel not so strange or alone. (Remember going through something as a child, keeping it all bottled up because you felt like an outcast for having these feelings and feeling that it's you against the world? Remember the surprise and relief that you felt when someone told you that everyone feels that way at one time or another in their lives?) It lifts that part of the burden so that some progress toward the problem can be made.

Then again, if it's apparent that the person is only seeking pity, then a good swift kick may be what's in order to snap them out of it. But it seems as though this method is often born of frustration from the "helper". Gently telling them they are full of shit and to get over it is usually the most effective method in getting them to actually hear what your are saying without making them completely tune you out though, IMHO. An understanding approach can go a long way to making "brutal honesty" sink in. It doesn't have to be delivered at the end of a baseball bat. That's makes people concentrate on ducking...not listening.

After re-reading that last paragraph, it may seem that I agree with coddling someone set on self-pity. I don't by any means. Some people do need to be hit over the head to have stuff sink in and make them snap out of it. I've just found that it's not a very effective first tactic if you want to be heard. A person like this may very well feed off your tactful ways and feel justified in their behavior. If that becomes the case and depending who they are in your life, by all means, lay it on the line for them! Or walk away.

*Edit-Last paragraph.


Edited by schapper (01/24/06 07:53 AM)


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OfflineTameMe
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Re: Placating self-pity. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5216923 - 01/24/06 09:03 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I think it depends on the individual you are trying to help.

Some will be able to handle your seemingly more honest and realistic response....while it could potentially destroy another.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Placating self-pity. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5216933 - 01/24/06 09:17 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

sometimes someone just needs a friend, which means that the issue is about spending quality time with another carbon based life form that is faced with existential angst.

no conflict over issues about spiritual progress, social philosophy or political dogma is better than this.


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Offlinescumpi
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Re: Placating self-pity. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5217049 - 01/24/06 10:18 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

There seems to be no easy answer, if you have one it probably wrong. Every situation and every person needs something else and it differs with who is trying to help them.
I could help my best friends in real life with in other kinds than strange persons via internet.

I think especially in the Internet the highest caution has priority.
There are only words and one knows not a thing that is behind it.
Whatever you state as your true opinion here should be explained and labelled as your opinion.
I think there is no ultimate truth in opinion nevertheless.

I myself placate a lot. It can be helpful but people are most times angry at me then. Although there is no intention to critisize on my side. So I tell them not to be angry and what my intention was. Sometimes I feel sorry, sometimes not.

And do I like it myself? Not always. But I honor that I get to know the opinion of someone else.
It often reveals the thinking patterns of the others instead of helping me.

I`d rather advice care and carefullness.
People are like porcelain. Beautiful and easily broken.

And on another note. What you wrote about love hurts.
I don`t think it`s true.
Love is neither hearts nor never forcing.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Placating self-pity. [Re: scumpi]
    #5218166 - 01/24/06 04:14 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Good posts everyone.

I agree that people need both a pat on the back and a kick in the ass.

as for emotional frailty, where is the compassion for everyones emotions and freedom? it seems that compassion is distributed unevenly, and the more emotionally frail person gets more compassion, or all of it.
If a discussion is brought up, involving a group of people, which is designed to help someone, and you dont allow one person to speak their mind, or edit and curb the words that one person uses, then it no longer becomes a discussion, and the group ceases to be a unit designed for help and becomes a group proclaiming truth and righteousness via their assumption of what is the most effective help.

I also dont think that kind words should be forsaken, i just dont think that kind words and abstract, happy time love talk is the full remedy. Sure, empathy has its place, but it is no better or worse than brutal honesty, nor more or less effective.

One should not be forsaken for the other due to the possibility of "help" not being taken the right way. Help is help.

As long as help is given unselfishly, and truly for the intention of helping that person with your knowledge, experience, or words, then no one method of help is any better than any other.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Placating self-pity. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5218218 - 01/24/06 04:27 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Depends.  And what the hell is happy time love talk? :grin: One can show empathy and still tell the honest truth. If your truth is coming from compassion and empathy then that good. If it's coming from a need in you to remedy something in your self (mirroring) then it is often wide of the mark. Tough love practitioners (including myself) often fall into this category as much as the "happy time, love talkers". :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Placating self-pity. [Re: Icelander]
    #5218530 - 01/24/06 05:54 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

depends? on what? what is that a response to?

I dont think one needs empathy to be helpful, nor personal compassion, maybe a compassion for humanity as a whole, or compassion for your fellow man.
Does a doctor have to know what a broken leg feels like to diagnose it? or to fix it?
I think that often, a persons empathy and compassion get in the way of truly helping that person. Look at it this way: when dealing with a person, you are dealing with THEM, and your experience or emotions have nothing to do with helping that person.... so why drag up all of YOUR emotions, and YOUR experience to help THEM? why not deal with that person, that persons problems and leave yourself and feelings out of the equation, because in many cases they are not only fodder, but restraints towards actual help.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Placating self-pity. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5218580 - 01/24/06 06:05 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Depends on the person and situation.

Did you ever think about listening to what the person is asking for? That might determine how to go about it.

When I posted my experience in that thread the poster seemed to get something from it and said so. I can't exactly remember what his response to your post was. I mean before much of it was deleted by a Mod.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Placating self-pity. [Re: Icelander]
    #5218758 - 01/24/06 06:40 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5208584/an/0/page/0/gonew/1#UNREAD

just so you can have a reference, and see that I am not the only person who feels this way.

usually, when self-pity is involved, the person wants sympathy, a form of attention which is given readily and willingly by many people on this forum, because that is what they are giving themselves and want someone else to validate it for them, so they can continue to ignore the real causes of their problem, not confront them and let them continue to build up.
Of course the person responded positivly to your post, because it is what they wanted to hear. So, if you have a mother with an unruly child who is throwing fits, and she asks you why he acts that way, and you say a harsh truth regarding her mothering abilities, is she going to be receptive to that? or happy about it?
Does it help to tell her stories about children worse than hers? so that she feels better and continues to go about poorly raising the child?


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InvisibleVirgilKane
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Re: Placating self-pity. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5218921 - 01/24/06 07:20 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Does a doctor have to know what a broken leg feels like to diagnose it? or to fix it?




A broken leg and someones emotional experience are two entirely different things. And you used a key word here. Diagnose. If someone comes in with a broken leg does the Doctor treat them all with the same method because that's what he feels like doing or does he diagnose the problem first and treat each individual accordingly?

As stated before..it's a case by case thing and not all people should be treated exactly the same way, nor even the same person the same way after a while if new insights or motivations come into view.


--------------------
Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense...

"Religion is a defense against a religious experience"
              Carl G. Jung

 
"So really, ordinary reality is a kind of chemical habit, sanctioned by culture, which says it's okay to use certain drugs, eat certain foods, and have certain sexual behaviors. However, when you transcend all this pre-conditioning by returning to the original wisdom of the animal body, then you discover this immense dimension of opportunity. For some people, it is a frightening risk. To me, that's the psychedelic experience."
Terence McKenna


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Placating self-pity. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5218946 - 01/24/06 07:25 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I didn't tell him what he wanted to hear as far as I knew because I didn't know what he wanted to hear. But I did listen to him and try to put myself in his place. I got a hit right away as to what kind of person he was and I thought he was stepping out for the first time and taking a chance in telling his story. I figured it wasn't the best time to tell him to quit whining and buck up. In fact the forum rules prohibit it also.

I'll be glad to stand by what I told him (which by the way I encourage everyone to check out for themselves) I'm glad I responded the way I did to this fine young and IMO courageous young man. Anyone who knows me here knows I don't beat around the bush and I tell it straight (like I did to you in PM). So if I recognize that someone is really trying to grow and is stepping up (my opinion of this guy) I'll bend over backwards to help them, encourage them, and suppport them without lying to them. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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