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InvisibleCidneyIndole
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MG+HBWR seeds--eliminating side effects, increasing intensity
    #4255997 - 06/04/05 03:15 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

The topic of discussion here will be the negative side effects of Morning Glory and HBWR seeds, how to prevent, reduce, or eliminate them; as well as ways to increase the positive effects of the drug. Any valid information is appreciated. If it isn't something you can verify from multiple sources, please simply say so. Any links for further research are a bonus. First, allow me to cover my ass.

The author of this post is not a doctor, and is unqualified to give medical advice. The author does not advocate taking illegal drugs, and all posts in this thread are purely for informational purposes. Any descriptions of illegal activity are fictional.

There are 3 side-effects I'd like to begin with. 1) vasoconstriction 2)nausea 3)sedation. Medically speaking, the first is the dangerous one.
MG and HBWR seeds contain ergot alkaloids, which are very potent vasoconstrictors. Because of a recent experience with this, I've posted my own horror story, which you may want to check out (RE: VERY IMPORTANT IF YOU'RE THINKING OF SEEDS!!!!!!). Basically, with a larger dose, or repeated dosing, the chances of greater vasoconstriction increase. Also, taking macrolide antibiotics (like the popular Zithromax) while taking the seeds may dangerously increase the levels of the drug in your system. The effects of the vasoconstriction aren't pleasant, and can be dangerous. At the lowest level, there is a tingling or numbness in the fingers and toes, and sometimes arms as well. If this condition is untreated, and is extreme, it can lead to necrosis (tissue death) which can lead to gangrene and amputation. Pain and cramping in the legs has also been reported, and can be attributed to the vascular effects. The other problem is hypertensive crisis. This is, from what I understand, more a product of HIGH levels in the body, and possibly bad combinations with other drugs. Hypertensive crisis will land you in the hospital, and may be lethal. So how to combat these effects?
Vasodilating drugs are your best bet. Stvip recommended niacin and ginko biloba, both of which are vasoDILATING drugs. The ginko is amazing. I've been taking 240mg daily, in 4 divided doses (extract standardized for 24% ginko flavone glycosides) I began to notice improvement the first day I took it. Ginko information
The most commonly sold form of niacin (niacinamide) in multi-vitamins and B-complex vitamins is good. However, you can reach toxicity at a much lower dose than the other forms. If you want to take large doses of niacin for vasodilation effect, I would suggest one of the other forms. Most multivitamins contain 20-50mg niacinamide. I've been taking 1,000mg Inositol Nicotinate daily. This form of niacin is safer to take at larger doses, and is supposed to have the same vasodilating effect. GNC sells it as "No Flush Niacin 500" (500mg tablets, 100 count) for about $15. There are other forms of niacin as well, which may be good for this purpose (most listed as "smart drugs") but which I haven't tried. It should be noted, that there are several ergot-derived drugs which claim vasoDILATION (not constriction) as side-effects (like hydergine). However, I would personally avoid these drugs, as most state very clearly that you are to avoid taking other ergot-derived drugs while using them. Info on Hydergine and other NON-ergot vasodilating drugs
Marijuana is a bit hazy....from what I understand, it acts as a vasodilator on some parts of the body, but a vasoconstrictor on other parts. I'll have to look into this a little more. PsychCentral's vasodilation page
Cardiovascular effects of cannabis--Great info!
Marijuana, as I'm sure everyone knows, can reduce or eliminate nausea. Despite the fact that I don't normally like to smoke when I trip, I've used it a number of times with the seeds for nausea. A very small amount (1 or 2 hits) seems to work well for this purpose. It should be noted that pot has vasodilating effect on some parts of the brain (and this is the organ you want to protect most from vasoconstriction) but has vasoconstricting effects on other areas of the brain. So do some damn research...(see above link)
I've also used cola syrup (recommended by my local pharmacist) for nausea. Seemed to work a little.
I've noticed that there's less nausea with an extract, as opposed to just eating the seeds--but nausea is still present. I've also noticed that with an extract, a slightly smaller volume of water is better for this (I use about 1cup water per 5g of MG seeds), and a light meal a few hours before can help.
Sedation is a big side-effect, especially at larger doses. Marijuana increases this effect, but with smaller amounts of pot, and certain techniques, this can be eliminated or reduced.
I've heard reports of people using ephedrine to combat the sedation, and to increase positive effects. I wouldn't recommend this, as ephedrine is a potent vasoconstrictor. I've used small amounts of caffeine with success. Last time I ate the seeds, i took a 3 hour nap (5-8PM), consumed several (4-6) cups of tea (8-10:30PM). At about 11PM I took 1/2 vivarin (100mg caffeine). (it should be noted that I'm a regular heavy coffee drinker, and have a fair tolerance to caffeine). At about 12:30AM I drank an extract of 20 GRAMS of Heavenly Blue seed. At about 1AM I took 4-6 hits of pot. The end result was that i had a very intense trip, and was awake all night, with no sedation. (I went to sleep around 7AM). I know caffeine increases heart-rate and BP (which can be bad when combined with vasoconstriciton) but does anyone know if it has direct constricting effects?
Also to be noted: nicotine is a potent vasoconstrictor. For this reason I try not to be my usual chain-smoking self when tripping on MG's.
That's about it for now. Any additions to this (or corrections) are most welcomed). I'll continue to look into this, and post my findings.


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InvisibleTYL3R
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Re: MG+HBWR seeds--eliminating side effects, increasing intensity [Re: CidneyIndole]
    #4256912 - 06/04/05 08:29 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Nice. Very thorough

I just keep it simple -

8-10 seeds

crushed into fine powder

and drink with water.


Optional - Smoke some bud 10 min after you ingest HBWR :bongload: :yesnod:


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OfflineInfiniteTea
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Re: MG+HBWR seeds--eliminating side effects, increasing intensity [Re: TYL3R]
    #4258016 - 06/05/05 01:42 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

hi, I was curious about ginko biloba helping with the vasoconstriction as well, glad to hear that it has helped you. I posted the following on a different thread with regards to combining niacin and LSD:

Quote:

InfiniteTea said:
With regards to the combination of LSD and niacin...

http://diseyes.lycaeum.org/olo/niacin.lsd

This person, among others, reports that one can use niacin to abort an LSD trip, I am not sure if niacin would effect the LSA experience similarly, however since they are so closely related, it wouldn't be implausible. Some believe that niacin's purported ability to abort a trip is merely a placebo effect.




perhaps the possibility that niacin can weaken the intensity of the LSA experience is worthy of further investigation.


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"There are two ways to slide easily through life; to believe everything or to doubt everything. Both ways save us from thinking."
-Alfred Korzybski


Edited by InfiniteTea (06/05/05 06:22 AM)


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InvisibleCidneyIndole
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Re: MG+HBWR seeds--eliminating side effects, increasing intensity [Re: InfiniteTea]
    #4259327 - 06/05/05 11:46 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Excellent point, Infinite. I've also read several reports of niacin being used to abort a trip, so I think there must be something to it. However, it is worth noting that in the account of the gentleman in the link you provided, he used 1 and 1.5 GRAMS of niacin. This is a far larger dose than I've been taking, or ever have taken. I wonder if there would be an abortive effect at a smaller dose... I have, on a couple occasions, taken 20-100mg niacinamide right before an MG trip with no obvious reduction in intensity, and the next time I try the seeds, I intend to take around 500mg of inositol nicotinate (perhaps a little more...) so I'll post back here on how that goes.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that I'd rather accidentally abort a trip than suffer physical damage. Especially with how cheap MG seeds are. I would lose a few bucks worth of seeds, and a night where I could have tripped out, but I would gain a whole lifetime of possible trips. Just my opinion...
This may be slightly off-topic, but while we're discussing LSD-like drugs and vasoconstriction, has anyone here ever noticed any side-effects from LSD that may be attributed to this? LSD IS a vasoconstrictor. In the past, my typical dose has been 2-6 tabs, tho on a couple of occasions I've taken 10-15, and I've never noticed any major effects. Has anyone? Check back in--more info to come....


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OfflinepH_
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Re: MG+HBWR seeds--eliminating side effects, increasing intensity [Re: CidneyIndole]
    #4259406 - 06/05/05 12:13 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

when i did a cold water extraction on 13g the only nausea i had was like 20 mins after ingestion and only lasted for maybe 5 minutes. the bodyload was intense though, it made laying down very uncomfortable which sucks when your coming down and trying to sleep :frown:

as for intensity, the only way i can trip on lsa is with weed. altho w/ this dose i came the furthest to having a trip from lsa alone, i didnt really feel the trip until i smoked. and when i did, damn :smile: rainbow CEVs, walls coming alive and moving slowly, "heat waves" (like if your looking down a road on a hot day) on my walls/doors. certianly was an interesting night  :thumbup:


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InvisibleCidneyIndole
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Re: MG+HBWR seeds--eliminating side effects, increasing intensity [Re: InfiniteTea]
    #4391032 - 07/11/05 12:30 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Okay, I seem to have reached an inconclusive conclusion on the niacin, but first things first: I've tried and mostly failed to find good reliable information on how exactly LSD works in the brain. My reasoning being that LSD and ergot alkaloids are so chemically similar that they must have a very similar method of action. From what I've read, one theory states that the chemicals themselves fit into the receptors. I like the second theory better, which states that they release a "cascade" of neurotransmitters. This makes more sense to me, as it has been shown that LSD only remains in the brain a short time. (I recall reading that it stays in the brain for about 20 min, and you don't begin to feel the effects until it actually leaves the brain. I think I read this in Acid Dreams, tho I'm not sure, so I'll re-check that). Perhaps my logic is too simplistic, but if it does produce a cascade effect, it might stand to reason that having a larger "ready supply" of such neurotransmitters in the brain may increase the intensity of the experience. That being said....
I've recently learned that vitamin B-6 is vital in the production of serotonin, so increasing your B-6 intake may help you along. Also, studies have shown that depressed patients taking B-12 along with their antidepressants show more improvement than those who don't take the B-12. A word of warning--it is believed that prolonged exposure to high doses of B-6 can lead to nerve damage. And prolonged exposure to high doses of niacin can cause liver problems. Now, to the good stuff....
After nearly 6 weeks, I partook of a morning glory extract. For about a week and a half before, I slightly increased my ginko intake, vitamin C, and I began supplementing with a B complex, and an additional B-6 supplement. (note, it is recommended you take no more than 200mg B-6 daily). I ground 20g Heavenly Blue seeds with a coffee grinder, and soaked it in 1/2 cup (118 ml) of 151 proof GRAIN ALCOHOL. It was left to sit for 5 days in a dark closet, applying ice packs to keep it cool, agitating the solution every few hours. I strained it through a wire basket coffee filter, applying pressure to the mush with a spoon to get all the liquid possible. The resulting liquid was placed in a tall salt shaker, allowing the fine white sediment to settle to the bottom. After several hours, a dropper was used to remove all but the last cm or so of liquid. There was some loss of liquid during the process, as I was left with only about 90ml of liquid. This was placed in a large glass baking tray, and left in a dark room directly under a ceiling fan. Several hours later I was left with about 20ml of very dark yellow liquid.
This was much better than the water method. I don't know what the saturation point of water is with something like this, so I've always worked on the side of caution, and used around 1 cup per 5g of seeds. This is fine if you only use 5-10g seeds, but when you take 20g doses as I do, 4 cups of a nauseating liquid can be a bit much.
About an hour and a half before ingestion, I took 60mg ginko, 2000mg vitamin C, 100mg caffeine, and 250 mg inisitol nicotinate (niacin). After drinking the liquid, I sipped some cola syrup, and took 3 hits of blueberry kind. The effect was quite intense and pleasant. I was very anxious at first, bordering on paranoia. But about 1 hour after I took it, I began to relax. 1 1/2 hours I was tripping hard, and totally calm and fearless. It should be noted that before even the cola syrup or the pot, the nausea was much less than before. Afterward, it wasn't present at all. In conclusion, this seems to be a good method (but slightly more expensive, due to the cost of grain alcohol) and a moderate dose of niacin shortly before the trip did not reduce the intensity at all. Also, there were no major vasoconstrictive effects. Very minor tingling just before the peak of the trip, and then nothing. This seems to be the way to go. I've collected a bit more info, but I'm running out of time, so I'll be posting that later. Have fun.

The above is a completely fictional account, describing an illegal process for entertainment and informational purposes only. The author does not engage in or advocate any illegal activity.


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