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OfflineFliquid
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European Petition.
    #4212901 - 05/24/05 03:12 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Anyone around wanting to talk about the European petition?
Maybe even someone who knows what the effect could be on the current dutch drug
situation?
The petition is really bothering me, and I'm going to vote no because I believe
that the joining of europe will give Holland a lot of trouble.
France can enforce the antidrug situation on Holland and other country's.
Holland could lose it's special thing.

Converse please.  :smile:


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InvisibleDieCommie
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Re: European Petition. [Re: Fliquid]
    #4213004 - 05/24/05 04:06 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

There is nothing wrong with preserving your nation's sovereignty.

On the flip side, wouldnt federalizing europe help it compete economically and militarily with other large federal nation? (ie US)


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OfflineFliquid
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Re: European Petition. [Re: DieCommie]
    #4213056 - 05/24/05 04:29 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Maybe, but we would also be forced to maybe join military actions that Holland doesn't actually agree on.
And I don't think we would actually benefit economically, because the situation in Holland now is just bearable.

I believe more doors will be closed and life will become very hard and limited.
Our current rules are reasonable, and the merger with the rest of the EU will bring Holland a load of new rules and regulations.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: European Petition. [Re: Fliquid]
    #4213108 - 05/24/05 04:56 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

>Anyone around wanting to talk about the European petition?

You mean the "European constitution"?
Did you read it?


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OfflineFliquid
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Re: European Petition. [Re: Anno]
    #4213157 - 05/24/05 05:26 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

No, didn't read it.
There is not that much good information around.
Most of the information we get is telling us how good it will be for us to vote yes. And that everything will be wonderful, but no actual information on what exactly will happen.

The only actual detailed information we got was the anti-advertisements that we got in the mail.

The fact that they keep the information so dimmed makes the whole situation even more mysterious.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: European Petition. [Re: Fliquid]
    #4213257 - 05/24/05 07:53 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Well I read the shite allright  :mad:

European "constitution"?
Just say NO-NON-NEIN-NEE!

Holland indeed will be fucked over where it comes to for instance drug law. Listen up:

Holland can decide it's national laws
but if it wants to change laws contrary to european laws it needs the permission of -eight other nations- to change national policy.

Nations are allowed their own peculiar laws
but the "euro-constitution" says all nations should strive together to reduce the harm and proliferation of drug use.

That stingy burning sensation?
that's the European Government buttfucking you without a lube and if you think it hurts now just wait until the "costitution" has passed.

What does this mean for Dutch Drug laws?
Well, maybe the end of it.

Holland has NOT legalized Cannabis it has a construction called the Gedoogbeleid which means policy of tolerance.

Currently the conservatives are in power and enforce a strangulation policy on the Dutch "coffeeshops" (being the places that are tolerated to sell weed) which means you can *not* create a new coffeeshop and existing coffeeshops cannot change management.
All this boils down to christian biblethumpers trying to get weed firmly illegalized with a chain and padlock on it.

The CDA (Christian Democrats, which incidentally translates to the USA situation as the "Christian Republicans" because they are hardcore rightwing and are in no way "democrats") are at power now and their prime minister clearly states they want to END the Dutch cannabis situation. And strangulation is their policy.
They even fondly call it "extinction policy" (uitsterfbeleid)

This means that you have always been allowed to buy 30 grams but it has long ago been lowered to 5 grams and well over half of all the coffeeshops of the 1990s are now closed forever.
A number one reason to close coffeshops is "overlast" meaning too many people, parking problems, noise etc.
And what better way to combat "overlast" but to decrease the number of places all the users can go to? :mad2:
The conservatives are killing Dutch cannabis policy and its working.

The redeeming quality of the cannabis policy is reduction of hard drug addiction. But because of increasing conservative restrictions on cannabis the effectiveness of the policy gets hollowed out.
Sneaky rats, aren't they?

The only way out of this is LEGALIZATION.
If the next elections yield a left-wing coalition (let's say PVDA=Labour, GL=Green Left and SP=Socialist Party, particularly the latter who are nothing like communist socialism) then there might just be LEGALIZATION to end the problems of the Gedoogbeleid once and for all.

BUT NO.
National Dutch cannabis legalization will be subject to the approval of eight other nations. And it might be considered contrary to drug harm reduction by the bigger and more conservative majority of the EU.
Eyro-constitution? JUST SAY NO !!  :mad2:

-----

And now another thing. With the introduction of the Euro the europeans  got screwed out of half their money's value.
Americans would hold a million man march to the whitehouse with firebombs in hand and shoot at anything that looks like authority, but Europeans actually got screwed out of half the value of their money by the clever scam of the Euro introduction.
Ask any european about the cost of shopping etc. and they will say prices of everyday goods have almost doubled.

Why are we getting a referendum?
Because this time we are going to get MONDO FUCKED WITH A RED RIBBON TIED AROUND  :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:
Know the old Terminator movie where Arnie buys a gun and pays by shooting the gunstore owner? That is what will happen to us. We are going to give the Eurogovernment the gun and the bullet to shoot us with :mad2:
It's a fucking scam! And we will pay, nay BLEED for that "yes"!

I have read the text of the "constitution".
It is utter BOLLOCKS!

Half the things that are carved in stone are already firmly established international/human rights, and we already abolished capital punishment, and yadayada...

But nearly all the things a substantional portion of The People might say NO to are all "to be determined at a later date by the European Commission".

They want us to give them a fucking blank cheque and the last time they did that they fucked us out of half our income :mad2:

The Dutch VVD Liberals (which are no "liberals" but also Republicans to US standards) threw images of the holocaust in our faces to make us vote Yes. The Dutch conservative government uses taxpayer money to persuade us to vote yes in a national referendum.

European constitution? I'm pro-Europe but this is a scam. Go away. Get back to me when you got a worked-out proposal without those blank spots and ambigous statements. The Euro parliament have agreed to hold half of their conferences in location A and half in location B. That annual moving around for no reason but to kiss government butt costs the taxpayers of Europe the equivalent of 250.000.000 dollars.
Take your shite with you and fuck off. We want a decent Euro government or none at all.

If you're a european, send chain emails around to make people see the light and vote NO-NON-NEIN-NEE to the proposal. It isnt worthg the paper its printed on but will cost us dearly if we say YES.


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OfflineFliquid
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Re: European Petition. [Re: Asante]
    #4213266 - 05/24/05 08:13 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Great post, exactly what I would have said if I could have come up with the words.
100% true, and the reason for me to say no.

I wish there was a way to spread the word around on the dutch drug circuit.
Because I'm sure hardly anyone knows this information. And we will get fucked over just like we got ffed over with the euro..

Dutch people are generally easy going, but in these types of situations our easy going attitude fucks us over.  :mad2:


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Invisiblepsilomonkey
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Re: European Petition. [Re: Fliquid]
    #4213272 - 05/24/05 08:23 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

A very brief BBC analysis can be found here..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2950276.stm

But I agree the people are being very poorly informed on this issue. Both the 'Yes' and 'No' campaigns seem to prefer fear rather than reason in this 'debate'.

The 'Yes' campaign saying if you vote no terrible things will happen and your country will be left behind, but not going into specific issues.

The 'No' campaign saying if you vote yes then terrible things will happen and your country will be taken over by foreign bureaucrats, but not going into specific issues.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: European Petition. [Re: Fliquid]
    #4213411 - 05/24/05 10:29 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I wish there was a way to spread the word around on the dutch drug circuit.




There is a way to do something! Write chain emails and send them to your address list to have them multiply and passed on.

Here, I'll help you!
I got an interesting chainmail the other day from a leftist friend.
It contained the following text, which I identified as the Socialist Party's "Constitution FAQ" that's edited to remove all political orientation (leftism) so it can be read by rightwing people as well without causing offense.
It contains major reasons for a well-founded Dutch NO.

Please cut & paste this into an email and send it to all your Dutch friends, asking to pass it on. Then, a few days later, send it again.
I excuse that it's in Dutch, I will summarize in English below.

------------------------------------------------------------




Europese Grondwet:

antwoorden op de meestgestelde vragen



Wat is een grondwet?

De Nederlandse Grondwet is het belangrijkste staatsdocument van ons land. Zij bevat de fundamentele regels voor onze staatsinrichting en legt tevens de grondrechten van de burgers vast. De Grondwet is de hoogste nationale wet voor de Nederlandse staat; andere wetten dienen haar bepalingen in acht te nemen.

Staat de Europese Grondwet boven de nationale grondwet?

In artikel I-6 staat: ?De Grondwet en het recht dat de instellingen van de Unie bij de uitoefening van de haar toegedeelde bevoegdheden vaststellen, hebben voorrang boven het recht van de lidstaten.? De Europese grondwet komt dus niet in de plaats van de Nederlandse, maar staat er wel boven. Dit betekent dat indien Nederland in de toekomst een grondwetswijziging wil doorvoeren, dit niet strijdig mag zijn met deze Europese grondwet. Op deze manier wordt de Nederlandse grondwet gedegradeerd tot een ondergeschikt document.

Wordt Europa een federale superstaat?

Volgens de Duitse minister van Buitenlandse Zaken is de grondwet een geboortebewijs ?voor een enkele Europese staat, gebaseerd op een Europese Grondwet.? De nieuwe EU zal in ieder geval alle eigenschappen hebben van een ontwikkelde federale staat: een munt, een vlag, een president, een volkslied, een feestdag, een leger en een Grondwet met een Handvest van Grondrechten.

Als deze grondwet wordt aangenomen zal dat gezien worden als steun voor verdergaande Europese integratie. Zo wordt Europa steeds meer een superstaat waarin Nederland een soort provincie wordt. Is het wenselijk dat Nederland zoveel zeggenschap over haar eigen beleid afdraagt?

Wat gebeurt er als de meerderheid van de Nederlanders tegen de grondwet stemt?

In principe verandert er niets. De Europese Unie blijft gewoon functioneren op basis van de bestaande verdragen, maar zonder verdergaande overheveling van bevoegdheden van ons land naar Brussel.

Maar een afwijzing van deze grondwet is een helder signaal van de burgers dat deze ontwikkeling van de Europese Unie niet het democratische en sociale Europa is waarvoor zij zich zouden willen inzetten. Een afwijzing betekent een aanwijzing voor de regeringen en parlementen dat er een ander, democratischer en socialer Europa moet komen. Als deze Europese Grondwet niet doorgaat, zullen regeringen en parlementen hun huiswerk moeten overdoen, en nu w?l rekening moeten houden met de wensen van de Europese burgers. Dat maakt de kans een stuk groter dat er een betere Europese Unie uit voortvloeit, met meer respect voor de nationale democratie en meer waardering voor bestaande democratische, sociale en culturele rechten. Een democratisch en sociaal Europa is mogelijk, als we dat samen willen. Maar dan moeten we nu wel ?nee? zeggen tegen deze zogenaamde Europese Grondwet.

Wat gebeurt er als niet alle lidstaten de Grondwet bekrachtigen?

De grondwet moet door alle 25 lidstaten van de Europese Unie bekrachtigd worden. Indien ??n lidstaat de grondwet niet ratificeert, kan deze niet van kracht worden. In de Slotakte is echter bepaald dat indien vier vijfde van de lidstaten het Verdrag twee jaar na de ondertekening ervan heeft bekrachtigd en een of meer lidstaten moeilijkheden bij de bekrachtiging hebben ondervonden, de Europese Raad de kwestie bespreekt.

In de praktijk betekent dit dat wanneer eind oktober 2006 20 landen de tekst hebben geratificeerd, het ervan zal afhangen welk soort landen dit niet deden. Als het om kleine landen gaat, kan de Europese Raad het zich permitteren om de grondwet gewoon in te voeren. Als ??n of meer grote landen zoals Frankrijk, Spanje of Groot-Brittanni? de voorgestelde tekst zouden verwerpen, ligt de zaak moeilijker. Als Groot-Brittanni? de tekst verwerpt (wat niet uitgesloten is) staat niet zozeer de tekst ter discussie maar wel de plaats van Groot-Brittanni? binnen de Europese Unie. Een weigering van Spanje of Frankrijk, zeker wanneer er meerdere landen de tekst zouden verwerpen, kan resulteren in een crisis.

Wordt Europa echt democratischer en transparanter?

Voorstanders van deze grondwet stellen dat de EU met deze grondwet een stuk transparanter en democratischer wordt. Op bepaalde punten krijgt het Europees Parlement meer medezeggenschap. Het parlement wordt medewetgever op het gebied van misdaadbestrijding, migratie, landbouw, visserij en handel. Dat betekent dat het Europarlement wetsvoorstellen kan amenderen en verwerpen. Nu nog besluit alleen de Raad van Ministers hierover. Maar op tientallen gebieden wordt overgegaan op meerderheidsbesluitvorming (ipv consensus). Het Nederlandse parlement verliest op deze manier veel macht, ten koste van het Europees Parlement.

De vergaderingen van de Raad van Ministers ?wanneer zij optreedt als wetgevende instantie? worden openbaar. Deze openbaarheid wordt vaak als een voorbeeld van transparantie geprezen. Maar zoals door onder andere prof. dr. Jacobs van de Universiteit van Tilburg wordt opgemerkt in zijn boek Strijdpunten Europese Grondwet: ?(?) de Ministers besluiten doorgaans op stukken, die zijn voorbereid door de ambassadeurs en de nationale topambtenaren die vergaderen in het kader van het Comit? van permanente Vertegenwoordigers en zijn 200 Raadswerkgroepen. Als men het serieus gemeend had met de transparantie had men ook de vergaderingen van dit Comit?, dat reeds angstwekkend grote invloed uitoefent op de Europese besluitvorming openbaar moeten maken.?

Ook zou het pas ?cht transparant zijn als de vergadering die gaan over niet-wetgevende zaken (zoals over Europese verordeningen, besluiten, adviezen en aanbevelingen) openbaar zijn. Op het moment dat de Raad vergadert over bijvoorbeeld het inzetten van militaire middelen in het kader van de strijd tegen het terrorisme zal dat weer in het geheim plaatsvinden.

Wat houdt het subsidiariteitsbeginsel in?

Subsidiariteit betekent dat beslissingen op een zo laag mogelijk niveau, zo dicht mogelijk bij de mensen, genomen moeten worden. Nationale parlementen kunnen binnen een termijn van zes weken vanaf de datum van toezending van een Europese wetgevingshandeling aangeven dat het ontwerp niet strookt met het subsidiariteitsbeginsel. Als ten minste eenderde van de nationale parlementen hieraan steun verlenen moet het ontwerp opnieuw in overweging worden genomen. Vervolgens kan besloten worden het ontwerp te handhaven, te wijzigen of in te trekken. Het is dus niet per se van tafel.

Indien Nederland een verzoek indient om een voorstel op nationaal niveau te regelen moeten er nog minimaal acht andere lidstaten dit voorstel steunen. Ook hier is Nederland dus weer afhankelijk van andere lidstaten, en wordt de zeggenschap over ons eigen beleid beperkt.

Daarbij komt dat de subsidiariteitstoets alleen van toepassing is op Europese wetgevingshandelingen. Het subsidiariteitsbeginsel is dus niet van toepassing op Europese verordeningen, besluiten, aanbevelingen of adviezen (allen niet-wetgevingshandelingen).

Wat houdt het burger-initiatief in?

Wanneer ten minste ??n miljoen handtekeningen zijn verzameld tegen een Europese maatregel moet de Europese Commissie deze aansporing van de bevolking in overweging nemen. Dat betekent niet dat de maatregel gelijk moet worden aangepast. De Commissie kan het verzoek namelijk ook naast zich neer leggen. Elke wijziging moet namelijk wel in lijn zijn met het in de Europese grondwet bepaalde. ?Een burgerinitiatief tegen stierenvechten is gedoemd te mislukken, omdat de Commissie kan weigeren paal en perk te stellen aan de traditie, daar het gaat om een cultureel goed dat beschermd moet worden, zoals elders in de grondwetstekst is bepaald.? (Europa in Beweging, 2005/1) 

Krijgen kleine landen minder macht?

In feite wordt geregeld dat de zes grote landen de 19 kleine (waarvan NL de grootste is) volledig kunnen overstemmen. Grote landen zoals Duitsland en Frankrijk krijgen meer stemgewicht in de Raad, kleinere landen krijgen minder gewicht. Doordat er meer via meerderheidsbesluitvorming besloten gaat worden verliezen alle lidstaten aan invloed, maar de kleinste lidstaten relatief het meest. Minister Bot vindt dat niet zo erg: ?Dat de stemmen van de grootste lidstaten af en toe boven de anderen uit te horen zijn nemen wij voor lief, mits zij niet vals zingen.?

Komt er een Europees leger?

?De lidstaten verbinden zich ertoe hun militaire vermogens geleidelijk te verbeteren.? (artikel I-41, lid 3). Dit leidt tot hogere uitgaven aan defensie, want verbeteringen zijn natuurlijk niet kosteloos. De lidstaten geven nu gezamenlijk jaarlijks zo?n 150 miljard euro uit aan defensie. Dit grondwetartikel zal ertoe leiden dat de gezamenlijke uitgaven aan defensie en veiligheid met 50 miljard euro per jaar zullen toenemen. Indien een lidstaat wil bezuinigen op defensie en dit geld wil inzetten voor investeringen in bejaardentehuizen of scholen, is dit strijdig met deze grondwet.

Er wordt een Europees Defensieagentschap opgericht ?op het gebied van de ontwikkeling van defensievermogens, onderzoek, aankopen en bewapening (?) om de industri?le en technologische basis van de defensiesector te versterken.? (artikel I-41, lid 3). Deze sterke focus op militarisering van Europa kan leiden tot een nieuwe wapenwedloop. Maar belangrijker nog: een politieke beleidsdoelstelling als ?het versterken van de defensiesector? hoort niet in een grondwet thuis.

Kan de EU straks een vuist maken naar Amerika?

De grondwet wijst nadrukkelijk op de band van de EU met de NAVO, waarmee ook het bondgenootschap tussen EU en VS in beton wordt gegoten. Voor een militair neutrale positie buiten de NAVO of los van de VS is geen ruimte meer. Dat een vuist maken naar de VS zo goed als onmogelijk zal zijn stelt ook minister Bot. Hij zegt namelijk dat de Europese defensie ?zo compatibel mogelijk moet blijven met de strijdkrachten van de VS?.

Het gaat volgens de grondwet niet alleen om de gezamenlijke verdediging van elkaars grondgebied, maar ook om het ingrijpen buiten het grondgebied van NAVO en EU. Deze grondwet spreekt over ?missies buiten het grondgebied van de Unie met het oog op vredeshandhaving, conflictpreventie en versterking van de internationale veiligheid.? (artikel I-41). Zo wordt militair ingrijpen om het eigenbelang te behartigen mogelijk en is een ?preventieve? oorlog niet langer ondenkbaar.

De besluitvorming omtrent het inzetten van militaire middelen vindt plaats op basis van consensus. Gezien de verdeeldheid in Europa met betrekking tot de oorlog in Irak is het niet waarschijnlijk dat Europa ?cht een vuist kan maken.

Behoudt Nederland de eigen Eurocommissaris?

Vanaf 2014 is er geen commissaris per lidstaat meer. Er komen er dan 18 die verdeeld zullen worden per toerbeurt.

Komt er een president van Europa?

Er komt een Europese president (vaste voorzitter), die de Raad van regeringsleiders 2,5 jaar voorzit. Deze president mag maximaal een maal herkozen worden. Ook komt er een minister van buitenlandse zaken.

Wat is het voordeel van het Handvest van Grondrechten in de grondwet?

Het Handvest van Grondrechten is een opsomming van rechten uit verschillende internationale verdragen, zoals  het Europees Verdrag voor de Rechten van de Mens en het Europees Sociaal Handvest. Alle Europese lidstaten hebben deze verdragen allemaal al ondertekend. De Europese Unie echter nog niet. Door het Handvest op te nemen in de Grondwet wordt de Europese Unie voor het eerste een volwaardige rechtsgemeenschap.

Alfred Pijpers van Instituut Clingendael: ?Met het handvest van de Grondrechten in de Europese Grondwet krijgt de burger dus een paar mooie sigaren uit eigen doos. Bovendien blijft de werkingssfeer van het Handvest zeer beperkt. Het heeft vooralsnog een symbolische functie. Zo wordt bijvoorbeeld de doodstraf verboden, maar het is al weer even geleden dat die in de Europese Gemeenschap werd voltrokken.? (Volkskrant 28-2-05)

Wordt de EU effici?nter door een Grondwet?

Het Europees beleid voor Justitie en Binnenlandse Zaken wordt effectiever. Dit maakt het voor politie en Justitie uit verschillende landen gemakkelijker samen te werken en gegevens uit te wisselen en zo grensoverschrijdende criminaliteit en terrorisme effectief aan te pakken. Dat is zeker een voordeel, omdat veiligheid (net als milieu) beter Europees dan nationaal aangepakt kunnen worden. Op andere gebieden, zoals buitenlandse zaken en defensie, is een ?effectievere? aanpak op zijn minst twijfelachtig. Zitten wij immers te wachten op een ?effectieve? aanval op een bepaald land, in het kader van de ?conflictpreventie??

Dat Europa met deze grondwet helemaal niet transparanter wordt blijkt ook uit onderzoek van de Algemene Rekenkamer. De Rekenkamer stelt in haar EU-trendrapport 2005: "Het is te betreuren dat in het grondwettelijk Verdrag de principes van goed openbaar bestuur (?good governance?, good ?accountability?) niet of nauwelijks geconcretiseerd zijn. De formele positie van de Europese Rekenkamer in de grondwet is ondanks een aanbeveling daartoe van de gezamenlijke nationale rekenkamers in de EU eind 2003 niet verbeterd."

Ook zal de Europese grondwet niet leiden tot een vereenvoudiging en vermindering van de nu al geldende 97.000 pagina's wetten en reglementen. Sterker nog: het zal moeilijker zijn voor Nederland om op te komen voor de belangen van haar ondernemingen.

De Europese grondwet verandert niets aan het feit dat het Europees Parlement, dat gewoonlijk in Brussel vergadert, verplicht elke maand een week in Straatsburg vergadert. Dit verhuiscircus kost bijna 200 miljoen euro per jaar. Bovendien is het een verspilling van energie en slecht voor het milieu.

Gaat het referendum ook over de Euro?

Strikt genomen niet, maar de Euro staat wel vastgelegd in de Grondwet. Over de invoering van de Euro destijds, is nooit advies gevraagd aan de bevolking.

Gaat het referendum ook over Turkije?

De toetreding van Turkije heeft strikt genomen niets te maken met de voorliggende grondwet. Aangaande de toetreding van Turkije tot de Europese Unie moeten er idealiter nog veel zaken beter geregeld worden. De belangrijkste zijn: de kwestie Cyprus (nog steeds bezet het Turkse leger een deel van Cyprus), de mensenrechten (o.a. martelingen in gevangenissen) en de behandeling van minderheden (o.a. Koerden). Het feit dat de meeste Turken islamitisch zijn hoeft politiek geen beletsel te vormen. Het is echter wel een feit dat een eventuele toetreding van Turkije negatieve gevolgen zal hebben voor de positie van kleine landen, omdat Turkije dan in een keer een van de grootste lidstaten is.

Kan een land na aanvaarding van de grondwet uit de EU stappen?

Ja, dat staat in de grondwet. Wel moet er overeenstemming zijn tussen deze lidstaat en de EU, en er moet een schadevergoeding betaald worden.

Heeft het kabinet een geheim campagnepotje?

Nee, want inmiddels weet iedereen dat het kabinet 1,5 miljoen euro achter de hand houdt indien ?een intensieve ?nee-campagne? met betaalde middelen wordt gevoerd.? De regering gaat er dus alles aan doen om iedereen voor te laten stemmen. Op het moment dat het bedrijfsleven de voorstanders op grote schaal gaat sponsoren zal het kabinet zich echter niet geroepen voelen om bij te springen.

Op wat voor punten komt er een meerderheidsbesluit in plaats van een veto?

Op ongeveer 40 gebieden verliest Nederland een veto. Onder andere op asielterrein, justitie, onderdelen van defensie en buitenlandse zaken zal op basis van een gekwalificeerde meerderheid besloten worden. Dit betekent dat een voorstel aangenomen kan worden als 15 lidstaten (of meer) het voorstel steunen. Nederland verliest de mogelijkheid om een voorstel tegen te houden als dit bijvoorbeeld ongunstig is voor ons land. Hierdoor wordt zeggenschap over ons eigen beleid ingeleverd. 

Europa krijgt toch een sociale markteconomie?

In artikel I-3 van de grondwet staat dat de Europese Unie een ? sociale markteconomie? krijgt. Er wordt in het hele document echter maar ??n keer gesproken over een ? sociale markteconomie?. In alle andere gevallen wordt er gesproken over een ?open markteconomie?.

Richt de Europese Unie zich met deze grondwet op volledige werkgelegenheid?

Volgens artikel I-3 krijgt de Europese Unie ? een sociale markteconomie met een groot concurrentievermogen die gericht is op volledige werkgelegenheid?. Ten eerste, ?markteconomie? en ?volledige werkgelegenheid? gaan niet samen, want een markteconomie is juist gebaat bij een overschot aan arbeid. Dat blijkt ook wel uit het feit dat er op dit moment in Europa zo?n 20 miljoen mensen werkloos zijn. Ten tweede, er wordt in het hele document maar ??n keer gesproken over ?volledige werkgelegenheid?. Voor de rest wordt er gesproken over een ?hoog werkgelegenheidsniveau? of over de ?de bevordering van de werkgelegenheid?.

--------------------------------------------------------


Let me summarize the text briefly for anyone not Dutch:

--European Law will stand above Dutch Law
--Europe moves towards a Federal Superstate/ loss of national sovereignity
--A Dutch NO wont harm Europe but give a clear signal and urge to rewrite it to a better manuscript
--We may actually BLOCK the Constitution with a Dutch NO
--Democracy will be used in a way that favors and fortifies the position of the largest countries vs the smaller ones
--Many decisionmaking processes still won't be transparant.
--Subsidiarity will mean we'll need the permission of 8 countries to significantly change national law yet this doesnt apply if Europe changes laws, again taking away power
--A referendum of one million voters can simply be ignored by the Euro parliament so this too is a false promise
--the bigger nations will get more power so they can outvote smaller countries at any time
--There will be an European Army which can actively/aggressively intervene, a blatant threat opening the door to an arms race with the Middle East neighbours
--Europe will no longer kiss America's ass but actually get on it's knees to lick the brown star of this superpower that is rapidly moving away from democratic principles (well, basically it says that)
--We will lose our permanent Euro-commisioner
--There will be a "president of Europe"
--The fundamental rights already are established yet are presented as a bonus.
--Europe will get more law, lose even more transparancy and costs alot more
--Saying yes to the constitution is acceptance of the "Euro currency" scam
--It stands apart froim the addition of Turkey to the Union (local issue)
--If we step out of that new "Europe" we owe them a restitution
--The Dutch Gov't has reserved 1.5 million euros (2 million dollars) to repress NO voting while its supposed to be impartial as this is a national referendum
--We lose the right of veto on about 40 major issues
--The document is eerily quiet about the "social market economy" promised to the people
--The constitution does not strive to eradicate unemployment as economics benefit from exploiting surplus labour.

-------------------------------------------------------


As you can see, Americans: WE EUROPEANS ARE GETTING FUCKED!!
Please imagine said measures being taken against the USA and you'd be ready to hurt something. :mad:


I hope our members of other European states, NOTABLY FRANCE, will follow my example and cut and paste (or compile) a chainmail the French can send to warn their countrymen, because they will get shafted too.


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: European Petition. [Re: DieCommie]
    #4213579 - 05/24/05 11:41 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
On the flip side, wouldnt federalizing europe help it compete economically and militarily with other large federal nation? (ie US)



There is nothing inherent in federalizing Europe (centralizing and increasing the power of the political class) that is good economically. Individual nations can reduce or eliminate tariffs, taxes and regulations without joining the union and being subject to yet another layer of a large intrusive bureaucracy. A common currency could be established by simply going to a gold standard while avoiding the pitfalls of a fiat currency.


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You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
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Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Offlineesin
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Re: European Petition. [Re: Asante]
    #4213594 - 05/24/05 11:46 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I am not dutch be you can be sure i will vote no.

First of all, no one has an idea what are the implications of this constitution. I'd say 80% of the voters in my country don't know what they are doing with their vote. Approving a YES in these conditions is stupid and undemocratic. They might as well approve it in the parliament and the effect would be the same, except the people wouldn't be brainwashed into thinking they are exercising a right which in fact they aren't.

The president and the government of my country have been campaigning for the YES, using the State resources (much like i understood Dutch institutions are doing)  :nonono:

Now on to the text of the constitution.

I understand bigger, more populated states demand higher powers and more votes inside the european insitutions. BUT, me living in a small not very populated state, Portugal, don't want our sovereignty to be overriden by theirs.

Second, this text, compared with the text of my national constitution represents moving *backwards* in acquired civil and social rights.

Third, i don't agree with many of the EU economic policies, namely the unflexible economic specialization of the states and unsensitive neo-liberal capitalism.

Fourth, there seems to be a double criteria inside the EU for treaty violation. Small states have to pay when they violate rules but France and Germany apparently don't. Kinda like the USA inside the UNO. I will only accept to move further in the integration when all states are equally subject to the community law.

Fifth, i have always been FOR the european integration. But as a union, NOT as a federal type state like this constitution seems to hint at.

Well, there are more reasons which i can't remeber now. Portugal will most likely vote YES though. If only people knew...
Hypocritical bastards. They chose a certain day for the referendum 'so that participation will be thorough'. But only *formally*, as in fact a BIG majority of the voters have absolutely NO IDEA what they are voting for in my country.
The general public will be happy as they feel they had a word to say, and in case things go sour the government can just say 'well, you voted in a referendum, it's your responsibility not ours' :rolleyes:


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: European Petition. [Re: esin]
    #4213660 - 05/24/05 12:20 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

You're going to vote NO in Lysergia?  :grin:

Hey like I said you can do something! Find or compile an appropriate Portugese text that really explains why the Constitution sucks, Cut & Paste it into this thread and send copies out to all your Portugese friends urging them to resend it to everyone etc.

You can really make a difference that way, perhaps give public opinion the right spin to tilt the Yes to a NO!

Please do this and dont forget to cut & paste the Portugese text here so other Portugese shroomerites can inoculate Portugal with THEIR No :thumbup:


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Re: European Petition. [Re: Fliquid]
    #4214050 - 05/24/05 02:13 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

>No, didn't read it.
>There is not that much good information around.

Here is it, read and decide.
http://www.euabc.com/index.phtml?page_id=108


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Re: European Petition. [Re: Asante]
    #4214081 - 05/24/05 02:24 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Holland can decide it's national laws
but if it wants to change laws contrary to european laws it needs the permission of -eight other nations- to change national policy.



This has nothing to do with the European Constitution and can not be a reason to vote against. This is already needed at the moment. The proposed constitution will give the parlement more control so the control on this is better. This is no argument and voting no will not change the fact that we have to respect some European laws.

Quote:


Nations are allowed their own peculiar laws
but the "euro-constitution" says all nations should strive together to reduce the harm and proliferation of drug use.



What is wrong with this? This says nothing about how they will reduce harm and proliferation of drug use.

Quote:

What does this mean for Dutch Drug laws?
Well, maybe the end of it.



More anti-europe nonsense. 'This' already is a fact in Europe and the euro-constitution will not make it anything better or worse. It does not mean the end of the dutch drug laws now and it will not mean the end if we vote yes.

Quote:

BUT NO.
National Dutch cannabis legalization will be subject to the approval of eight other nations. And it might be considered contrary to drug harm reduction by the bigger and more conservative majority of the EU.
Eyro-constitution? JUST SAY NO !!



Again, the euro-constitution does not change anything here. It's a constitution and there are no more normal laws made. There are euro laws for years and we have to have the approval of eight other nations if we don't want them for years. The constitution does not change this and this is not a reason to vote against....

Quote:

With the introduction of the Euro the europeans got screwed out of half their money's value.



Even more nonsense, please elaborate!

Quote:

Ask any european about the cost of shopping etc. and they will say prices of everyday goods have almost doubled.



You should not ask Europeans, you should read the research papers. There has not been a significant inflation apart from hotels, cafes and restaurants. The everyday price of goods have actually dropped since the price-war.

Quote:

They want us to give them a fucking blank cheque and the last time they did that they fucked us out of half our income



You should study some economics. Where the fuck did you read that?

Quote:

The Dutch VVD Liberals (which are no "liberals" but also Republicans to US standards) threw images of the holocaust in our faces to make us vote Yes.


Someone wanted that, not the VVD in general, nobody ever saw the that commercial on tv or in papers.


What things will change in a negative way if we vote yes?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: European Petition. [Re: Annom]
    #4214235 - 05/24/05 03:13 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Wow, there's actually political issues outside of America? Amazing!


--------------------


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Offlineummikko
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Re: European Petition. [Re: Fliquid]
    #4214923 - 05/24/05 06:03 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Status in other EU countries:

The Spanish Senate ratified the Constitution on 18.05.2005
The Belgian Senate ratified the Constitution on 28.04.2005
The German Bundestag approved the Constitution on 12 May 2005
The Nationalrat (lower house)of Austria approved the Constitution On 11 May 2005
The Greece parliament ratified the constitution on 19 April 2004
The parliament of Hungary ratified the constitution on 20 December 2004
The Italian Senate (217 Yes, 16 No) approved the Constitution 06 April  2005.

Slovakia - The parliamentary ratification was held on 11 May 2005. (116 Yes, 27 No, 4 abstentions)
Slovenia - The parliamentary ratification was held on 01 February 2005. (79 Yes, 4 No, 7 abstentions)
Lithuania - The parliamentary ratification was held on 11 November 2004. (84 Yes, 4 No, 3 abstentions)

Cyprus - Ratification will be considered by Parliament. No referendum to be held.
Estonia - Ratification will be considered by Parliament. No referendum to be held.
Finland - Ratification will be considered by Parliament. No referendum to be held. :mad2:
Latvia - Ratification will be considered by Parliament.
Malta - No referendum to be held.
Sweden - Ratification will be considered by Parliament (Riksday). No referendum to be held.

United Kingdom - Ratification will be subject to a referendum.
Netherlands - Ratification will be subject to a referendum.
Poland - Ratification will be subject to a referendum.
Portugal - Ratification will be subject to a referendum.
Luxembourg - Ratification will be subject to a referendum.
Ireland - Ratification will be subject to a referendum.
France - Ratification will be subject to a referendum.
Denmark - Ratification will be subject to a referendum.
Czech Republic - Ratification will be subject to a referendum.


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Re: European Petition. [Re: Asante]
    #4217332 - 05/25/05 05:08 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Fabel 2: Voor het eerst wordt Nederlands recht ondergeschikt aan Europees recht
Europese regels gaan boven nationaal recht. Dat is al meer dan veertig jaar geleden zo bepaald in de Europese Unie. Dat moet ook wel. Als landen de Europese regels opzij zouden kunnen zetten met hun eigen nationale regels, dan wordt het een vrijblijvende puinhoop in de Unie. Nieuw is dat deze reeds bestaande regel nu voor het eerst in het verdrag is opgenomen.

De Nederlandse Grondwet blijft gewoon bestaan. De Nederlandse grondwet hoeft ook niet gewijzigd te worden als gevolg van de Europese grondwet. De Nederlandse Grondwet gaat over hoe we in Nederland met elkaar omgaan; in de Europese grondwet staat op welke onderwerpen en hoe er in Europa wordt samengewerkt. De Europese grondwet en de Nederlandse grondwet gaan dus over verschillende zaken.

De Europese grondwet is geen grondwet vergelijkbaar met een nationale grondwet, maar een verdrag tussen zelfstandige lidstaten. In dit verdrag staan de spelregels voor de samenwerking in Europa.




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Re: European Petition. [Re: Annom]
    #4217527 - 05/25/05 07:46 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

The Fighting Dutchmen :evil:

Quote:


   
Quote:

Holland can decide it's national laws
    but if it wants to change laws contrary to european laws it needs the permission of -eight other nations- to change national policy.



This has nothing to do with the European Constitution and can not be a reason to vote against. This is already needed at the moment. The proposed constitution will give the parlement more control so the control on this is better.





It stifles the sovereign nature of the nation. It's already required but the constitution (which isnt a constitution) will carve that in stone. A constitution should refine that or undo it, not generalize.

I am well aware that there is a public campaign climate that basically says: "Only retards vote NO based on completely trivial non-essential reasons"

Quote:

   
Quote:

Nations are allowed their own peculiar laws
    but the "euro-constitution" says all nations should strive together to reduce the harm and proliferation of drug use.



What is wrong with this? This says nothing about how they will reduce harm and proliferation of drug use.




Well let me tell you whats wrong with it. The definition of how unified drug policy will be shaped will be set by majority rule.
Perhaps we have 4.5 million people in favour of legalizing weed in holland. That is 1/100 of the european population which is ruled by conservatism. France, England and Germany have political majorities that want to eradicate the Dutch Experiment. That's like pitting a highschool wrestler against three Sumotori, isn't it?
If europe decides whats to be done about cannabis, WE LOSE.

Quote:

   
Quote:

What does this mean for Dutch Drug laws?
    Well, maybe the end of it.



More anti-europe nonsense. 'This' already is a fact in Europe and the euro-constitution will not make it anything better or worse. It does not mean the end of the dutch drug laws now and it will not mean the end if we vote yes.



Anti-europe nonsense? You're stifling my opinion in the same way the campaign works. I am NOT anti-europe. I am NOT anti-european constitution. I am anti-THIS proposal. Create a constitution that does not suck and I'll rally for a YES.

Quote:

   
Quote:

National Dutch cannabis legalization will be subject to the approval of eight other nations. And it might be considered contrary to drug harm reduction by the bigger and more conservative majority of the EU.
    Eyro-constitution? JUST SAY NO !!



Again, the euro-constitution does not change anything here. It's a constitution and there are no more normal laws made. There are euro laws for years and we have to have the approval of eight other nations if we don't want them for years. The constitution does not change this and this is not a reason to vote against....



If you get repetitive then so will I good sir!
These euro laws are now carved in stone. Because of the "unified drug policy" AND the 8 countries AND the conservative climate in Europe AND the Dutch isolated stance on soft drugs we can kiss our Skunk goodbye if the big nations want it.
This so-called constitution doesnt CELEBRATE DIVERSITY, it TOLERATES it. It intends to toss our national diversities into a blender.
Toss a salad :wink: into a blender: it will taste like shit.


Quote:


   
Quote:

With the introduction of the Euro the europeans got screwed out of half their money's value.




Even more nonsense, please elaborate!



Don't say "nonsense" to write my stance off as dumb. I know thats the political climate against NO voters I know, but thats no reason for you to do it. I will elaborate, ok?

Quote:

   
Quote:

They want us to give them a fucking blank cheque and the last time they did that they fucked us out of half our income



You should study some economics. Where the fuck did you read that?



I don't have to read an opinion to form one of my own. I think based on observations and create my own. It's called thinking! (we cool :laugh:)
I'll get there.

Quote:


   
Quote:

Ask any european about the cost of shopping etc. and they will say prices of everyday goods have almost doubled.



You should not ask Europeans, you should read the research papers. There has not been a significant inflation apart from hotels, cafes and restaurants. The everyday price of goods have actually dropped since the price-war.




Ohnonono, now you're mine! :evil:
You should NOT read research papers but pay attention to what the man in the street says. The research papers have LIED to us.
Minister Zalm has LIED to us, and in fact he admitted it when he confessed that he deliberately indexed the gulden currency 10% too low at the exchange with the euro.

You heard me right: we had to pay Fl. 2.20 for one euro while in fact the value of our currency was such that the REAL rate was two guldens for one euro. Google it! I heard it straight from the horse's mouth on national TV (NOS) so it is out there.

What this means is that Zalm in one personal move screwed every Dutch man, woman and child out of a dubbeltje for every gulden (a dime for every dollar) That alone amounts to the effect of a jump of 10% inflation in ONE DAY. Oooh and we were celebrating that we got the euro.. while it was already carved in stone that we were celebrating a theft of 100 dollars from every 1.000 dollars we owned.

And then the prices went up. and up. and up.

I suspect you are an Albert Heijn shopper. Albert Heijn has always overcharged its customers and recently dropped its prices. Then it may SEEM things got cheaper but they sure as hell didn't, not even if you don't count the 10% we got shafted for by Zalm alone.

We in Holland have got the Bread Law which states a bread should contain so many flour etc. Bread is a staple food, not a luxury item.

Before the Euro you had a price war where you could buy a whole supermarket loaf of bread for 1 gulden. Can you buy a whole supermarket bread for 46 eurocents? Fuck no, they charge you 1.15 for half a loaf of supermarket whitebread which is little over one knaak (Fl. 2.53) which used to be the price of a whole organic luxury bread.
FUCKED.

I use alot of fish as part of my staple diet.
One cheap brand for years has been 4 gulden a frozen kilo, which is
1.81 euros. Now thats a bargain ei?
NOT! Now I pay 3 euros 79 which is a whopping 8.34 guilders.
Hellooo! That's literally "guldens gone euros"

You pay 1.50 euro (= 3.30 gulden) for a fucking KROKET now :mad2:
(used to be 1.25 gulden)

And how come all the prices in shops are nifty numbers again? You know, the numbers like 5.95 and 49 cents and 19.98 that are economically attractive to the shops. How do we get the same smooth figures? Well, because every product in the shops have gotten more expensive to GET those semi-rounded figures.
FUCKED.

And healthcare is to shite, insurance cost has gone up, public transportation has gone more expensive..

Even many middle-income people cannot afford a car anymore. Now that IS a signal that something went funny somewhere.

So do NOT come to me with economics figures that say things are more or less the same. Here in Holland the man in the street says "the guldens gone euro" and East Germans I know volunteered the observation that cost of living has doubled there too.

AND Zalm shafted us for a snip on every rug (10%) by his own confession, let's not forget that: five years of distinct inflation happened overnight by bthe consicous decicion of the man that has always assured us prices did not change.

---

What things will go wrong if we vote Yes?
Don't get me started :rolleyes:

Huge, HUGE immigration figures of empoverished Eastern Europeans while many of our companies will move their factories to those low-income nations, meaning massive unemployment issues.
Eastern European nations are plagued by gangsterism and fascism and they'll be the first to jump on the bus. This means a crime wave just like the Former-Yugoslavian immigration wave brought.
If you hire a hitman in Amsterdam, it'll likely be a bosnian/serb.
Wait until the Eastern European crime wave hits.
No, thats not in the research papers and ofcourse that has nothing to do with the so-called constitution at all.
Or does it?

Article I-4 Fundamental freedoms and non-discrimination

1. The free movement of persons, services, goods and capital, and freedom of establishment shall be guaranteed within and by the Union, in accordance with the Constitution.

2. Within the scope of the Constitution, and without prejudice to any of its specific provisions, any discrimination on grounds of nationality shall be prohibited.

Article I-10 Citizenship of the Union

2. Citizens of the Union shall enjoy the rights and be subject to the duties provided for in the Constitution. They shall have:

(a) the right to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States;

Excuse me: does this mean what I think it means?
Yes: this is equivalent to REMOVING the border between the USA and Mexico. If a million empoverished low-income Europeans want to move to holland they can and they can freely take the money from the Dutch economy over its border, guaranteed by this constitution. Don't call me a dumb racist: this is a SERIOUS purely economic concern that has nothing to do with nationality but everything with completely removing the border between the First World and the Second World. This is about towering inflation in 2010 Holland.


SECTION 5 POLICE COOPERATION
Article III-275


1. The Union shall establish police cooperation involving all the Member States' competent authorities, including police, customs and other specialised law enforcement services in relation to the prevention, detection and investigation of criminal offences.

2. For the purposes of paragraph 1, European laws or framework laws may establish measures concerning:

(a) the collection, storage, processing, analysis and exchange of relevant information;

(c) common investigative techniques in relation to the detection of serious forms of organised crime.


wow how sweet is that... imagine how the powers that be can abuse this! it's not what it says.. its what it DOESN'T say that worries me.



Hmmm.. One Army that can be deployed by majority rule... One Police force that will set its own boundaries AFTER the "yes", opening nay REMOVING the border with 300.000.000 low income Europeans...
How can we as a very small, very wealthy nation reap anything BUT benefits? I mean we have 1/30 of the citizens and write off our VETO capability on 40 issues. That's GOT to be a good thing, right?

Just say NO.


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Re: European Petition. [Re: Asante]
    #4217536 - 05/25/05 07:55 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)



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Re: European Petition. [Re: Asante]
    #4217631 - 05/25/05 09:25 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Your arguments are correct against the situation in Europe today. The constitution (which indeed isn't a real constitution) does not change this, there will not be more Europe rules. The Europe laws are already carved in stone and this constitution does not change that. I'm repeating myself, but I have to :smirk:

There is not a single point in the constitution that makes it easier or worse to legalize drugs in Holland. It does not make new Europe laws and it does not make it easier for the large countries to force a law on us. It does not change the current situation on that point. 

I do agree that they could bring up something better. Legalize all drugs in whole Europe would be better, but you have to be realistic. Legalizing all drugs will not happen in Holland as long as our neighbors and America don't want it. I've seen a docu where a politician in America said they would kill our Schiphol export if we legalize weed. It's a sad story, but there are more things than our drugs policy.

I'm sure you remember what happened in Rwanda and Darfur. Europe did nothing and we should all be ashamed for that. A fast acting intervention force is needed to do something in these situations... Genocide at the other side of the world is far more important than not legalizing weed in Holland. This constitution will not change everything, but it is a step in the good direction for a fast acting intervention force.

You can say that we don't need this constitution for combined action. That is true in theory, but is not going to work in the world we live in. Have have to make your priorities.

Quote:

You should NOT read research papers but pay attention to what the man in the street says. The research papers have LIED to us.



I don't believe in such conspiracies. An inflation of 100% is total nonsense and you know that. That would have killed our whole economy.



Quote:

Minister Zalm has LIED to us, and in fact he admitted it when he confessed that he deliberately indexed the gulden currency 10% too low at the exchange with the euro.



That was wrong, but it did not have the consequences you stated and is not a reason to vote against the euro-constitution.

Quote:

You heard me right: we had to pay Fl. 2.20 for one euro while in fact the value of our currency was such that the REAL rate was two guldens for one euro.



What is the REAL rate? It's very complicated and had to do with the value of the D-mark.
The prices in the stores in Holland used the same conversion ratio. It did something for our export en import and has had serious consequences, but you have study some economics to understand that. You can't say that we lost our money. That simply isn't true.

Quote:

That alone amounts to the effect of a jump of 10% inflation in ONE DAY



Not correct. The prices in our stores dropped with the same rate as the money we earn and have in our pocket. It does not cause a inflation of 10%. I don't think your knowledge about economics is sufficient here.

Quote:

I suspect you are an Albert Heijn shopper. Albert Heijn has always overcharged its customers and recently dropped its prices.



There is no such thing as overcharged its customers in a free market economy we have. They did not have a monopoly so it is simply demand and supply.


Bringing wealth to Eastern Europe is the best cure to solve all the bad things there. The best way to bring them wealth is to make it easier for them to make money. Our prices will drop and we will help them. You have to think about all those people living there. We can help them... we should not only think about our own good lives. We are so fucking lucky. What would you want if you lived in Eastern Europe?


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