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InvisibleJonnyOnTheSpot
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Registered: 01/27/02
Posts: 11,522
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Badnarik's thoughts on iraq
    #3264449 - 10/22/04 01:40 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

These are his thoughts and position on iraq, right off his website. I like every bit of it. The strange thing is though is that it seems to be at odds with with nearly every single one of his supporters (here at the shroomery anyway) personal thoughts and feelings towards the issue. As far as i can tell most of his supporters here directly disagree with his opinions and position on iraq. Why vote for him if you disagree on such a huge issue?

IRAQ

The War in Iraq is a failure, and the U.S. government should never have waged it. As your president, one of my first tasks will be to begin the orderly process of bringing our troops home as quickly as can safely be accomplished.

More and more Americans are coming to oppose the war, the war hawks and high government officials are beginning to distance themselves from the president, and the U.S. seems more willing than ever to pull out of Iraq.

But this is not enough. We need to learn how this disaster happened, so we can prevent future disasters from happening.

First, allow me to dispel a myth. People in the Middle East do not hate us for our freedom. They do not hate us for our lifestyle. They hate us because we have spent many years attempting to force them to emulate our lifestyle.

The U.S. government has meddled in the affairs of the Middle East far too long, always with horrendous results. It overthrew the democratically elected leader of Iran and replaced him with the Shah. After making Iranians the enemies of Americans, the U.S. government gave weapons, intelligence and money to Iran's mortal adversary, Saddam Hussein. The U.S. government also helped Libyan Col. Qaddafi come to power, propped up the Saudi monarchy and the Egyptian regime, and gave assistance to Osama bin Laden.

Most Americans have forgotten these events. But the people of the Middle East will always remember.

It was because of American troops in Saudi Arabia, lethal sanctions on Iraq, support for states in serious violation of International Law, and siding with Israel in its dispute with the Palestinians to the tune of more than $3 billion per year in taxpayers' funds that terrorist leaders were able to recruit those individuals who caused 3,000 Americans to pay the ultimate price on September 11, 2001.

The proper response would have been to present the evidence as to who committed the heinous act both to Congress and to the people, and have Congress authorize the president to track down the individuals actually responsible, doing everything possible to avoid inflicting harm on innocents.

A Libertarian president would not have sent the military trampling about the world, racking up a death count in the thousands, wasting tax money on destroying and re-building infrastructure, creating more enemies, and doing the kinds of things that led to 9/11 in the first place.

We cannot undo history, unfortunately.

The U.S. government has never succeeded in establishing freedom and democracy in any of its foreign adventures in the last fifty years. Freedom and democracy are blessings any people must establish for themselves.

Here at home, war leads to a decline in civil liberties, higher taxes, and wartime economic measures that blur the line between business and state, allowing politically favored corporations to profit at the expense of taxpayers.

Libertarians understand the importance of adhering to the Constitution, because it is designed to limit the power of the state here and abroad. And we especially understand the danger of war, which expands the power of the government far beyond its constitutional limits.

The founders of this country knew that war should not be initiated at the president's whim, and so the constitutional authority to wage war rests with Congress.

James Madison, father of the Constitution, said, "If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy." He also said, "No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare..."

In short, a libertarian foreign policy is one of national defense, and not international offense. It would protect our country, not police the world.


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Religion is for people who are afraid of going to Hell; spirituality is for those who have been there.


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OfflineAncalagon
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Registered: 07/30/02
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Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: Badnarik's thoughts on iraq [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #3264781 - 10/22/04 03:08 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

These are his thoughts and position on iraq, right off his website. I like every bit of it. The strange thing is though is that it seems to be at odds with with nearly every single one of his supporters (here at the shroomery anyway) personal thoughts and feelings towards the issue. As far as i can tell most of his supporters here directly disagree with his opinions and position on iraq. Why vote for him if you disagree on such a huge issue?



Vocal minority thing. I'm very certain the vast majority of Badnarik supporters here agree with his position regarding Iraq. Pinky, perhaps Mushmaster, Luv(forget whether he's voting for Bush or Badnarik), and perhaps Retread -- those are the only self-described libertarians in here who, to my knowledge, disagree with Badnarik's Iraq position.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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InvisibleGijith
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Registered: 12/04/03
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Re: Badnarik's thoughts on iraq [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3264986 - 10/22/04 05:47 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Ancalagon,

What are your thoughts on the reconstruction of Iraq?
I remember during the debate, Badnarik pushing the idea of volunteer fund being set up. American citizens donating money and sending it over to Iraq. Does this accurately sum up Badnarik's plan? And do you agree with it?

When it comes to helping the poor, I generally agree with libertarians. I think we should do away with wellfare and rely on charity. But I think Iraq is very different. I mean our government really fucked up over there, destroying countless buildings and sending the country into even more chaotic state than it was already in. Doesn't it owe the Iraqi people something? A commitment? Something more solid than 'we'll see what kind of donations come in'...?


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Registered: 10/10/02
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Re: Badnarik's thoughts on iraq [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3265012 - 10/22/04 06:08 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:

These are his thoughts and position on iraq, right off his website. I like every bit of it. The strange thing is though is that it seems to be at odds with with nearly every single one of his supporters (here at the shroomery anyway) personal thoughts and feelings towards the issue. As far as i can tell most of his supporters here directly disagree with his opinions and position on iraq. Why vote for him if you disagree on such a huge issue?



Vocal minority thing. I'm very certain the vast majority of Badnarik supporters here agree with his position regarding Iraq. Pinky, perhaps Mushmaster, Luv(forget whether he's voting for Bush or Badnarik), and perhaps Retread -- those are the only self-described libertarians in here who, to my knowledge, disagree with Badnarik's Iraq position.



Exactly. I agree with Badnarik on this, as does Evolving, and a few others, I'm sure. It's just that I usually don't get involved in the threads about Iraq because they tend to be long, drawn-out, and repetitive without really going anywhere.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Badnarik's thoughts on iraq [Re: silversoul7]
    #3265016 - 10/22/04 06:10 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Also, luvdemshrooms, although calling himself a libertarian, has said that he will be voting for Bush.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Badnarik's thoughts on iraq [Re: Gijith]
    #3265027 - 10/22/04 06:13 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Gijith said:
What are your thoughts on the reconstruction of Iraq?
I remember during the debate, Badnarik pushing the idea of volunteer fund being set up. American citizens donating money and sending it over to Iraq. Does this accurately sum up Badnarik's plan? And do you agree with it?

When it comes to helping the poor, I generally agree with libertarians. I think we should do away with wellfare and rely on charity. But I think Iraq is very different. I mean our government really fucked up over there, destroying countless buildings and sending the country into even more chaotic state than it was already in. Doesn't it owe the Iraqi people something? A commitment? Something more solid than 'we'll see what kind of donations come in'...?



The way I see it, government has a long history of trying to fix the mistakes of government, and has done a very shitty job of doing so. I think there are enough people and businesses with a stake in the future of Iraq to ensure that democracy prevails there.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: Badnarik's thoughts on iraq [Re: silversoul7]
    #3265045 - 10/22/04 06:17 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

It's hard to do a shitty job of sending boatloads of money over there. That's all I'm suggesting. The Iraqis can do what they like with it.


--------------------
what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Badnarik's thoughts on iraq [Re: Gijith]
    #3265067 - 10/22/04 06:22 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Gijith said:
It's hard to do a shitty job of sending boatloads of money over there.



No it isn't. The government has done just that for hundreds of countries for quite a while now. It's called foreign aid.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleGijith
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Registered: 12/04/03
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Re: Badnarik's thoughts on iraq [Re: silversoul7]
    #3265184 - 10/22/04 06:49 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Foreign aid is one thing. This is retribution.

In terms of how it's used, it would be no different than if it were donated by individual Americans, which is what Badnarik is proposing.


--------------------
what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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