Ferdinando said:

Rgv what do you think about growing

How good is it

I think you said something about that you rarely discuss it or something like that, why is that

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redgreenvines said:

I prefer to discus finding one's way amidst change.
growth has too many unrealistic positive associations to the child within, and life is not just a one way process, it is a circle (many circles and circles within circles). Even a child can understand that.

I prefer ideas like the middle way as a central value, rather than growth which is assumed to be ever upward and out, while we all know that life goes in a circle, a series of stages between birth and death, without any short cuts but with possible wisdom.

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Closed loop and close loop modalities are what I think I'm starting to refer to, a kind of orbital balance maybe.



Maybe there's value or meaning in the idea that something like a gratitude field could be an interesting symbolic mirror for remnant traces of humanity.

Quote:

When two systems, people, or perspectives meet, something forms between them, a shared field that belongs to neither yet connects both. Within this space, difference creates movement. Each holds its own shape, yet both adjust, tracing paths that respond to one another without collapsing into sameness. The relationship becomes something dynamic, a rhythm rather than a fixed state.

The motion between them can feel like orbit, an ebb and return, closeness and distance, both necessary for balance. What keeps this movement coherent is not control but awareness, the ability to sense when to yield, when to hold, and when to let the space breathe. Each side carries its own internal measure, its own gauge, yet the connection holds as long as certain qualities such as care, respect, presence, and gratitude remain intact.

When that interaction changes or fades, something of it lingers. The structure does not disappear; it redistributes, like resonance that remains after sound. Gratitude lives in that trace, not as obligation or nostalgia, but as recognition of continuity. It is what steadies the shift, what allows change to be experienced as transformation instead of loss.

Through this lens, endings do not close what came before. They extend it differently. Coherence is not the absence of change, but the ability of connection to keep existing, quietly, within what follows.

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Quote:

the Recursive Loop That Made Us Human

How recursive mentalizing shaped both civilization and self-awareness

In Hans Christian Andersen's folktale, The Emperor's New Clothes, when a child cries out that the emperor is naked, he isn't revealing a secret. Everyone already knows it. What changes in that instant is that everyone now knows that everyone else knows. That shift—from mutual knowledge to common knowledge, from private recognition to public awareness—topples the illusion. It's also the central insight of cognitive scientist Steven Pinker's new book, When Everyone Knows That Everyone Knows . . .: Common Knowledge and the Mysteries of Money, Power, and Everyday Life.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/finding-purpose/202510/steven-pinker-on-the-recursive-loop-that-made-us-human

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Quote:

This does not assert that torsion-primacy resolves existing anomalies, but rather that it may provide a clean conceptual lens for examining gravitational behaviour in regimes where curvature alone offers limited insight.

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Quote:

Torsion as Gravity

Concept

Conventional gravitational frameworks position curvature as fundamental and torsion as either optional, secondary, or context-dependent. This proposal reverses that priority: torsion is treated as the primary geometric state associated with gravity, and curvature as the secondary expression that emerges when torsional coherence is released. In this formulation, torsion reflects unresolved rotational structure inherent in spacetime, while curvature arises as a consequence of the gradual dispersion of that stored structure across scales. Gravity therefore manifests not as curvature itself, but as the persistent torsional state from which curvature emerges as the smoothing outcome.

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Opening Statement

This work explores a torsion-primary view of gravity, wherein torsion serves as the fundamental geometric state and curvature arises as a secondary expression through energy release. Rather than introducing additional assumptions or abandoning established results, this perspective re-orders interpretive priority: torsion is taken as the intrinsic gravitational condition, and curvature is treated as the macroscopic outcome of torsional resolution. The goal is not to supplant existing gravitational frameworks, but to consider whether certain gravitational behaviours are more coherently understood when torsion is regarded as primary and curvature as emergent. This exploratory orientation aims to clarify whether a torsion-first perspective may offer conceptual, empirical, or mathematical utility without presupposing that it must.

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Question

> What if torsion is gravity, and curvature is the observable release state rather than the cause?

This question reframes gravitational behaviour as arising from intrinsic torsional coherence rather than purely from metric deformation.

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Hypothesis

Torsion may not be a derivative geometric correction or a secondary response to matter, but the primary condition underlying gravitational behaviour. Gravity in this view is the expression of persistent torsional imbalance within spacetime, a form of stored rotational coherence that exists prior to and independent of curvature. Curvature then arises not as the source of gravity, but as the macroscopic manifestation of torsion’s gradual release and redistribution of energy across layers of structure. Under this framing, gravitational phenomena are understood as a transition process between torsional persistence and curvature-based dispersion, implying that signatures of gravity may exist in torsional form before curvature is measurable. This perspective invites a disciplined re-evaluation of gravitational effects as originating in torsion-dominant dynamics, with curvature as the emergent smoothing phase rather than the initiating mechanism.

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Why a Torsion-First View May Provide Clarification (without claiming superiority)

A torsion-first perspective may offer explanatory value in contexts where rotational structure, spin effects, or coherence properties appear before or without strong curvature signatures. Situations involving spin density, chiral propagation, or delayed curvature response suggest that torsion-dominant regimes could exist, even if briefly or locally. Considering torsion as gravity’s intrinsic form allows such behaviours to be examined without requiring curvature to appear simultaneously or causally first. This does not assert that torsion-primacy resolves existing anomalies, but rather that it may provide a clean conceptual lens for examining gravitational behaviour in regimes where curvature alone offers limited insight.

Note: Einstein-Cartan theory may provide the closest existing formal structure for a torsion-inclusive gravity model. Here, it is treated not as precedent to displace, but as a mathematical neighbour whose structure helps illuminate the implications of prioritising torsion as fundamental rather than corrective.

Reversing the interpretive order does not change established physics; it changes the explanatory sequencing through which gravitational behaviour is understood, and may clarify domains where curvature alone offers limited descriptive sufficiency.

This orientation does not assume that torsion-first interpretations must yield distinct empirical signatures, but simply leaves open the possibility that situations dominated by torsional coherence may present behaviours not fully captured by curvature-first treatments.

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Quote:

Gravity as Torsion.
A Torsion-Primary Interpretation of Spacetime Geometry.

Description:
This work explores a torsion-primary formulation of gravity in which curvature appears as the macroscopic relaxation of intrinsic torsional structure, positioning torsion as the fundamental geometric state without contesting the empirical successes of General Relativity.

This does not assert that torsion-primacy resolves existing anomalies, but rather that it may provide a clean conceptual lens for examining gravitational behaviour in regimes where curvature alone offers limited insight.

Summary Interpretation:
This proposal advances a torsion-primary interpretive hypothesis for gravity. Rather than modifying or challenging General Relativity, it re-orders the conceptual hierarchy between torsion and curvature. Torsion is treated as the fundamental geometric expression of gravitational structure, with curvature emerging as the macroscopic consequence of torsional resolution across scales. This hypothesis concerns interpretive priority, not new dynamics: it explores whether a torsion-first viewpoint provides clearer conceptual footing in appropriate regimes while remaining within established formalisms.

The approach is compatible with torsion-permissive frameworks such as Einstein–Cartan theory and can be understood as an interpretive emphasis within that geometric setting. The aim is not to replace curvature-based gravity nor to assert empirical superiority, but to examine whether a torsion-first perspective yields conceptual and mathematical clarity, particularly where spin, chirality, or microscopic geometric structure may precede classical curvature effects.

Conceptually, this parallels connection-first viewpoints in Yang–Mills theory, where the gauge connection is taken as primary and curvature appears as a derived quantity. This may be viewed as a conceptual inversion within established geometric gravitation frameworks: torsion is treated as primary, and curvature as its emergent macroscopic expression. Here, torsion plays the role of the foundational geometric structure, with curvature arising as a large-scale smoothing behaviour.

This formulation does not assume modifications to holonomy or parallel-transport structure, and is developed within the standard differential-geometric framework. A speculative direction for future work would be to consider whether torsion-dominant micro-regimes could exhibit additional holonomy freedom or fine-structure in parallel transport not captured by classical curvature-determined holonomy. Such possibilities lie beyond the scope of the present treatment and would require consistent formal development. The current hypothesis does not depend on such extensions, but acknowledges them as potential directions for further inquiry.

This perspective is relevant to settings where torsional structure naturally arises, including spin-coupled quantum gravity, chiral or parity-violating matter sectors, dense fermionic systems such as neutron-star interiors, and Cartan-geometric or topological formulations. No novel empirical claims are made here; the hypothesis is a disciplined interpretive proposal in which torsion serves as the intrinsic gravitational degree of freedom and curvature as its emergent large-scale manifestation.

#Torsion #Gravity #EinsteinCartan #Spacetime #Physics

00:00 Torsion as Gravity
00:43 Exploring the concept
01:36 Central Question
01:52 Hypothesis
02:51 Why Torsion-First May Clarify
03:41 Notes and Orientation

Relevant Literature:
f(T) teleparallel gravity and cosmology
https://arxiv.org/abs/1511.07586

Geometrical Heavy Lifting: Yang-Mills, Spin, and Torsion in Dynamical Projective Gravitation
https://arxiv.org/abs/2404.02243

Yang-Mills gauge anomalies in the presence of gravity with torsion
https://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/9408030

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BrendanFlock said:

I think the great question is "how do branes interact with each other.."

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https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/Hanany-Witten+effect

BrendanFlock said:

Could we say that time is between everything?

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Personally, I see spacetime as Cartesian. It's not in the scope of this piece, but for future reference we could further speculate that time is compactified, but I wouldn't call it a 5th dimension, maybe something second order or emergent from Cartesian space, or even just describing time as a mathematical artifact. Still trying to work within the given conceptual lens of torsion preceding curvature first and foremost.

This might be more relevant literature too.

"Carlo Rovelli discusses his research on time and his view that it should not appear in the quantum theory of gravity."

Carlo Rovelli: ‘Time Is an Illusion’ | Quanta Magazine https://share.google/ZiG2lD5OJna8s3hiV

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