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Invisibleballsalsa
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #24830044 - 12/06/17 03:57 PM (5 days, 16 hours ago)

Yeah, the start-up money generally comes from banks.  Do you know where banks have been getting the bulk of their start-up money since the Bank of England was chartered some 300-ish years ago? 

In the U.S. the federal government contributed significantly to the very existence of many industries such as coal, steel, oil, timber, railroads, agriculture, and pretty much anything else you can think of, by ceding land to anyone that would fence and improve it during the manifest destiny days.  It worked out great for many folks and then we stopped, giving those people a permanent, publicly subsidized advantage over everyone else to come after.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: ballsalsa]
    #24830181 - 12/06/17 05:19 PM (5 days, 14 hours ago)

Correct me if I am wrong; Are you stating that the economy would be better if the government would hand out more land(or insert other source) to the populace? Or are you for taking those said industries, apart?


--------------------
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Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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Invisibleballsalsa
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #24830191 - 12/06/17 05:30 PM (5 days, 14 hours ago)

it doesn't have to be either.  Any method of more fairly distributing wealth will lead to more jobs through more demand.  In addition, giving access to capital (in whatever form, including land) to the public allows for a much greater talent pool to get to work on creating those jobs that everyone raves about.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #24830229 - 12/06/17 05:48 PM (5 days, 14 hours ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
As far as the middle class spending habits, do you have any source that confirm that it would be spent, rather then saved or 401ked?



This website references a lot of studies that show the rich save more than the poor:

Do the Rich Save More?

I think it makes sense, because the less money you have, the harder it is to save anything because you have spend a larger fraction of your income on essentials.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24830295 - 12/06/17 06:22 PM (5 days, 13 hours ago)

Which begs the question, if the middle class received more money, would it be spent in the economy or saved?:shrug:


--------------------
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Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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OfflinerelicS
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #24830336 - 12/06/17 06:47 PM (5 days, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Which begs the question, if the middle class received more money, would it be spent in the economy or saved?:shrug:




a portion of this article was devoted specifically to the spending of tax cuts by the wealthy VS the middle class, but it had some relevant info for your question:

Quote:

Tax Cuts and the Economy

It's a common belief that reducing marginal tax rates would spur economic growth...

However, studies have shown that this isn't necessarily true. Data collected over 25 years by the Bureau of Labor Statistics shows that high income earners spend much less for every tax dollar saved, than low income earners — 86 cents versus 48 cents respectively. Further, a 65-year study by the Congressional Research Service showed that economic growth was not correlated with changes in the top marginal tax and capital gains rate. In other words, economic growth is largely unaffected by how much tax the wealthy pay. Growth is more likely to spur if lower income earners get a tax cut.





the two studies they reference are hotlinked in the article.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #24830362 - 12/06/17 07:10 PM (5 days, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
This website references a lot of studies that show the rich save more than the poor:

Do the Rich Save More?



Which begs the question, if the middle class received more money, would it be spent in the economy or saved?:shrug:



How is that even a question?  If the rich save more money, then of course giving the middle class more would lead to more spending.

relic's post further confirms this.  :thumbup:


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #24830371 - 12/06/17 07:17 PM (5 days, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Given that context, Is it a surprise that africa is run-down and full of nations that have a hard time governing themselves and managing their resources in a positive way for their citizens while china is rapidly expanding it's consumer (middle) class?  Not to me.  Seems like an continuation of policies that have been in place for more than a century.




Average Chinese IQ = 103
Average Sub-Saharan African IQ = 72

That's the difference. Blaming the West doesn't need to come into it at all.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

Sobriety Bias Syndrome is the tendency for people to erroneously assume that, if there are two competing perceptions of reality, the one that was arrived at while sober must necessarily be the correct one.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24830549 - 12/06/17 09:00 PM (5 days, 11 hours ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
This website references a lot of studies that show the rich save more than the poor:

Do the Rich Save More?



Which begs the question, if the middle class received more money, would it be spent in the economy or saved?:shrug:



How is that even a question?  If the rich save more money, then of course giving the middle class more would lead to more spending.

relic's post further confirms this.  :thumbup:




Sometimes I am unclear(most of the time it's my bum hand and poor editing), what I meant is that the "rich" save money ( per your link); therefore if the middle class received more money, they would save more as well....not spending it directly in the economy; therefore having a similar effect as the sterotypical "rich hoarder"


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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OfflineHunternicus
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: circastes]
    #24830905 - 12/06/17 11:59 PM (5 days, 8 hours ago)

the left  are liars and can’t meme.


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Invisibleballsalsa
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: viktor]
    #24830985 - 12/07/17 12:55 AM (5 days, 7 hours ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Given that context, Is it a surprise that africa is run-down and full of nations that have a hard time governing themselves and managing their resources in a positive way for their citizens while china is rapidly expanding it's consumer (middle) class?  Not to me.  Seems like an continuation of policies that have been in place for more than a century.




Average Chinese IQ = 103
Average Sub-Saharan African IQ = 72

That's the difference. Blaming the West doesn't need to come into it at all.




not big on nuance are you viktor?
I'll not ask you to source those numbers, but why do you think that is?
why do you think the flynn effect is in full force in the third world while rapidly diminishing in the developed world?


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #24831241 - 12/07/17 05:45 AM (5 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Given that context, Is it a surprise that africa is run-down and full of nations that have a hard time governing themselves and managing their resources in a positive way for their citizens while china is rapidly expanding it's consumer (middle) class?  Not to me.  Seems like an continuation of policies that have been in place for more than a century.




Average Chinese IQ = 103
Average Sub-Saharan African IQ = 72

That's the difference. Blaming the West doesn't need to come into it at all.




not big on nuance are you viktor?
I'll not ask you to source those numbers, but why do you think that is?





Warm, often humid climate in Africa ideal for growing food, meant that people didn't evolve to think very far ahead. Same thing with Abos in Aussie. Survival is primarily a function of just cruising around and reacting quickly.

The smartest people in the world are from Britain, Scandinavia, Russia, Mongolia, China, Korea and Japan: all cold countries where survival is a matter of learning things and thinking ahead.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

Sobriety Bias Syndrome is the tendency for people to erroneously assume that, if there are two competing perceptions of reality, the one that was arrived at while sober must necessarily be the correct one.


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OfflinerelicS
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Hunternicus] * 1
    #24831390 - 12/07/17 09:33 AM (4 days, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

Hunternicus said:
the left  are liars and can’t meme.




thanks for your contribution, AA.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24831481 - 12/07/17 10:32 AM (4 days, 21 hours ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
That's a great idea because most African countries don't have minimum wage laws.  :cookiemonster:



Because that's the solution to most of the world living in poverty relative to the Western world. :facepalm: Even you don't believe in such nonsense.



You haven't seen me argue in favor of minimum wage, or show evidence that the places that raised the minimum wage above the national minimum are doing better than the rest of the country?

I think you HAVE seen the evidence and bury your head in the sand to justify your irrational hatred towards immigrants.



I thought we were discussing mandating a minimum wage in the poorest areas of the world to combat their poverty, why are you changing the subject?



Yes, we were discussing mandating a minimum wage in the poorest areas of the world.  I'm saying Africa SHOULD impose a minimum wage (obviously start small and gradually increase it as people become wealthier).

Quote:

qman said:
Since when did we starting debating the merits to US minimum wage mandates and what does that have to do with illegal/legal immigration?



Since you asked why things aren't working out in Africa.

Quote:

qman said:
You're not trying to suggest that any success in the US minimum wage is universal in nature and the rest of the world would have the same outcome, are you?  You do realize it's apples and oranges.



Yes, I am suggesting that.  If it's successful wherever it's been tried, why do you think it wouldn't be successful elsewhere?

Quote:

qman said:
I'm not denying the massive disproportional amount of wealth that currently exists today, my point it's tied up in over-inflated assets prices such as real estate, cash, stocks and bonds. That's perceived wealth that isn't being used for consumption, that's a huge different from the peasants spending it in a matter of hours.



If "peasants" got real estate, cash, stocks, and bonds, they could liquidate it to spend on the economy.

Quote:

qman said:
This isn't about immigrants, it's about believing there's unlimited wealth to extract from the wealthy, so much so that there's enough for all US citizens PLUS tens of millions of poor migrants, that's pure economic fantasyland.



I just showed you chart of how extremely little it would take to DOUBLE the wealth of the bottom 50%.  It's not fantasy, it's looking at real data rather than make believing.

Quote:

qman said:
The US and most of the world is in massive debt at every level of government, business and personal. We are not taxing our way of this mess, at this point our current form of consumption is not even sustainable for much longer.



But we can and should tax our way out of debt.  Democrats get this which is why debt/gdp always goes down under Democratic presidents:



You don't seem to get that taxes reduce the deficit.




"If it's been successful wherever it's been tired, why wouldn't it be successful elsewhere?"

There's minimum wage mandates in poor countries and it's done nothing to very little to reduce poverty, economic prosperity allows for a higher minimum ages, it doesn't create it.

And yes, I understand what the peasants would do with more money, they would spend it.  What happens when they spend more money?  Demand increases and prices rise, that's the current reason why policymakers refuse to stimulate this economy, we can't live without ultra low interest rates today.

"we can and should tax our way out of debt"

More economic fantasyland, there's no taxing our way out of this mess without massive currency devaluation.

"Democrats get this"

It's not a R vs D issue, Obama DOUBLED the DEBT in 8 YEARS!!!


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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24831490 - 12/07/17 10:38 AM (4 days, 21 hours ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Exactly.  :thumbup:

And what's better for the economy?  Ten rich guys goings out to eat $1000 dinner, or 1,000 middle class guys going out to eat a $10 dinner?  I'd argue the latter, as it requires more restaurants, more servers, more cooks...

And even if you think both examples above are equal for the economy, I'd definitely argue that 1,000 people being able to afford going to go out is better than only 10 people being able to afford it.




High demand also brings in new issues, do you think all 8 billion humans could consume like the average US citizen?  No, we consume too much. There's not enough affordable resources to meet that demand.

There's a fine line of more demand and rising prices, why do you think the elite have always put the breaks on a growing economy.


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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: ballsalsa]
    #24831632 - 12/07/17 11:56 AM (4 days, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
it doesn't have to be either.  Any method of more fairly distributing wealth will lead to more jobs through more demand.  In addition, giving access to capital (in whatever form, including land) to the public allows for a much greater talent pool to get to work on creating those jobs that everyone raves about.




"more fairly distributing wealth will lead to more jobs through more demand"

Yes and no, more demand can also mean higher commodity prices which can reduce demand and destroy jobs. More demand also increases interest rates and the cost of capital for investment, that also destroys jobs.

Higher interest rates with the massive amount of government, business and personal debt that we have today would also increase interest payments which would also destroy demand and jobs.


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Invisibleballsalsa
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: viktor] * 1
    #24831640 - 12/07/17 12:00 PM (4 days, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Given that context, Is it a surprise that africa is run-down and full of nations that have a hard time governing themselves and managing their resources in a positive way for their citizens while china is rapidly expanding it's consumer (middle) class?  Not to me.  Seems like an continuation of policies that have been in place for more than a century.




Average Chinese IQ = 103
Average Sub-Saharan African IQ = 72

That's the difference. Blaming the West doesn't need to come into it at all.




not big on nuance are you viktor?
I'll not ask you to source those numbers, but why do you think that is?
why do you think the flynn effect is in full force in the third world while rapidly diminishing in the developed world?





Warm, often humid climate in Africa ideal for growing food, meant that people didn't evolve to think very far ahead. Same thing with Abos in Aussie. Survival is primarily a function of just cruising around and reacting quickly.

The smartest people in the world are from Britain, Scandinavia, Russia, Mongolia, China, Korea and Japan: all cold countries where survival is a matter of learning things and thinking ahead.




You forgot ashkenazi jews.  Even the european side of their ancestry originated with a migration of middle eastern people no more than 25k years ago according to this paper.

Quote:

contemporary AJ formed 600–800 years (close to the time of the AJ bottleneck) as the fusion of two ancestral populations. One ancestral population, consistent with being the ancestors of the FL samples, contributed 46–50% of the AJ gene pool. We call that population ancestral European and the other ancestral Middle Eastern. The ancestral European population went through a founding bottleneck (effective size 3,500–3,900) when diverging from ancestral Middle Easterners. We date this event to 20.4–22.1 Kyr, at around the time of the Last Glacial Maximum and preceding the Neolithic revolution

previous studies usually modelled the European founder event simultaneously with the divergence from East Asian populations. As modern humans had colonized Europe already by ≈40–45 Kyr35, our results (across all estimates of the mutation rate) support genetic discontinuity between that (hunter–gatherer) population and contemporary Europeans. A Middle Eastern European divergence time around ≈21 Kyr would also suggest (i) a near Eastern source for the repopulation of Europe at the end of the Last Glacial Maximum27,36 and (ii) that migration from the Middle East to Europe largely preceded the Neolithic revolution, suggesting that Neolithic population movements were largely within Europe37,38,39,40,41,42. These interpretations, however, strongly depend on the mutation rate: taking into account the uncertainty in the mutation rate, our divergence time estimate is between ≈12–25 Kyr, which can be reconciled with Neolithic migrations originating in the Middle East (Supplementary Note 6).





last i heard, the middle east is pretty warm.
In any event, how do you feel about the flynn effect?


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: ballsalsa]
    #24832744 - 12/07/17 09:23 PM (4 days, 10 hours ago)

Africans and Muslims are never going to be as smart as white and East Asian people. Africans because they simply never evolved in an environment that rewarded intelligence and Muslims because they're inbred to all hell. The average Muslim is so inbred that they even make Jews look healthy.

That's just the facts, if you don't like it find someone to cry with.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

Sobriety Bias Syndrome is the tendency for people to erroneously assume that, if there are two competing perceptions of reality, the one that was arrived at while sober must necessarily be the correct one.


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Invisibleballsalsa
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: viktor] * 1
    #24832749 - 12/07/17 09:27 PM (4 days, 10 hours ago)

I understand your hypothesis, but I'm not seeing evidence yet. 
you got any?


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: ballsalsa]
    #24832768 - 12/07/17 09:36 PM (4 days, 10 hours ago)

So you believe Jews are smarter than everyone else but don't believe that whites and Far East Asians are smarter than Africans and Muslims?


--------------------
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Sobriety Bias Syndrome is the tendency for people to erroneously assume that, if there are two competing perceptions of reality, the one that was arrived at while sober must necessarily be the correct one.


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