Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

qman said:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

That's a great idea because most African countries don't have minimum wage laws. 

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Because that's the solution to most of the world living in poverty relative to the Western world. Even you don't believe in such nonsense.

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You haven't seen me argue in favor of minimum wage, or show evidence that the places that raised the minimum wage above the national minimum are doing better than the rest of the country?

I think you HAVE seen the evidence and bury your head in the sand to justify your irrational hatred towards immigrants.

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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

qman said:

The wealth of the elite isn't as much as many of you guys think it is

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Perhaps that explains your ignorance.  The wealth of the elite is FAR more than most people think:


Look at how much of the country's wealth the bottom 50% has.

qman said:

Whatever limited wealth that could be extracted would be needed for the poor people already living in the US, not tens of millions of third world migrants.

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Look again at the graph above, and how little of the total wealth it would take to DOUBLE the wealth of the bottom 50%.

And you keep forgetting that the total supply of wealth is not fixed.  As the population rises, everyone's wealth doesn't go down.

qman said:

Ecstatic is stuck in some form of an economic fantasyland that has warped his whole view of the world.

Talk about being naïve, it would expect this worldview from someone in High School or early years in college, not a full aged adult.

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No, actually that'd be you who is stuck in some form of economic fantasyland, as clearly shown above.  You so DESPARATELY want to keep immigrants out that you play a game of make believe to justify your hatred towards them.  You've NEVER empirically shown that immigrants significantly hurt the US.

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I'm not denying the massive disproportional amount of wealth that currently exists today, my point it's tied up in over-inflated assets prices such as real estate, cash, stocks and bonds. That's perceived wealth that isn't being used for consumption, that's a huge different from the peasants spending it in a matter of hours. 

This isn't about immigrants, it's about believing there's unlimited wealth to extract from the wealthy, so much so that there's enough for all US citizens PLUS tens of millions of poor migrants, that's pure economic fantasyland.

The US and most of the world is in massive debt at every level of government, business and personal. We are not taxing our way of this mess, at this point our current form of consumption is not even sustainable for much longer. But no, let's invite more poor people in the US/EU and hope and pray we can afford it some day.

ballsalsa said:

SirTripAlot said:

It's a sad fact of life: poor people don't create jobs.

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poor people create most of the jobs through consumerism.  How many lunches do you think Mark Cuban and Elon Musk eat every day?  How many haircuts can they get in a year?  If you added all the billionaires together, do you think they could use enough energy to keep PG&E running?  I'm sorry to be the one to break it to you, but the "job creator" myth is just that, a myth.  Do the Waltons own a business that employs many people around the world?  Sure they do, but there were shops before Walmart, hell, there were shops before the Sears Roebuck catalog, and they weren't all owned by the super-rich.  You think Jeff Bezos is in the business of creating jobs?  Just wait until your packages start getting delivered by drones and self driving trucks.

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qman said:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

qman said:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

That's a great idea because most African countries don't have minimum wage laws. 

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Because that's the solution to most of the world living in poverty relative to the Western world. Even you don't believe in such nonsense.

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You haven't seen me argue in favor of minimum wage, or show evidence that the places that raised the minimum wage above the national minimum are doing better than the rest of the country?

I think you HAVE seen the evidence and bury your head in the sand to justify your irrational hatred towards immigrants.

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I thought we were discussing mandating a minimum wage in the poorest areas of the world to combat their poverty, why are you changing the subject?

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Yes, we were discussing mandating a minimum wage in the poorest areas of the world.  I'm saying Africa SHOULD impose a minimum wage (obviously start small and gradually increase it as people become wealthier).

qman said:

Since when did we starting debating the merits to US minimum wage mandates and what does that have to do with illegal/legal immigration?

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Since you asked why things aren't working out in Africa.

qman said:

You're not trying to suggest that any success in the US minimum wage is universal in nature and the rest of the world would have the same outcome, are you?  You do realize it's apples and oranges.

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Yes, I am suggesting that.  If it's successful wherever it's been tried, why do you think it wouldn't be successful elsewhere?

qman said:

I'm not denying the massive disproportional amount of wealth that currently exists today, my point it's tied up in over-inflated assets prices such as real estate, cash, stocks and bonds. That's perceived wealth that isn't being used for consumption, that's a huge different from the peasants spending it in a matter of hours.

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If "peasants" got real estate, cash, stocks, and bonds, they could liquidate it to spend on the economy.

qman said:

This isn't about immigrants, it's about believing there's unlimited wealth to extract from the wealthy, so much so that there's enough for all US citizens PLUS tens of millions of poor migrants, that's pure economic fantasyland.

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I just showed you chart of how extremely little it would take to DOUBLE the wealth of the bottom 50%.  It's not fantasy, it's looking at real data rather than make believing.

qman said:

The US and most of the world is in massive debt at every level of government, business and personal. We are not taxing our way of this mess, at this point our current form of consumption is not even sustainable for much longer.

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But we can and should tax our way out of debt.  Democrats get this which is why debt/gdp always goes down under Democratic presidents:



You don't seem to get that taxes reduce the deficit.

SirTripAlot said:

ballsalsa said:

poor people create most of the jobs through consumerism.  How many lunches do you think Mark Cuban and Elon Musk eat every day?  How many haircuts can they get in a year?

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Dude, it takes capital to make and create jobs...it's that simple. Jobs are created when money is spent or invested, moreover, the wealthy do consume more products and services than the average Joe.

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SirTripAlot said:

Could consumers buy PlayStations without the initial capital into Sony?

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SirTripAlot said:

I should have qualified my claim by saying" The poor do not create jobs as much as the rich" I will agree that was vague but people with money, create more jobs then those who don't.

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SirTripAlot said:

Of course there is interdependance. Could consumers buy PlayStations without the initial capital into Sony? You don't think the rich are not consumers? They consume more!

I should have qualified my claim by saying" The poor do not create jobs as much as the rich" I will agree that was vague but people with money, create more jobs then those who don't.

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SirTripAlot said:

As far as the middle class spending habits, do you have any source that confirm that it would be spent, rather then saved or 401ked?

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SirTripAlot said:

Which begs the question, if the middle class received more money, would it be spent in the economy or saved?

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Quote:

Tax Cuts and the Economy

It's a common belief that reducing marginal tax rates would spur economic growth...

However, studies have shown that this isn't necessarily true. Data collected over 25 years by the Bureau of Labor Statistics shows that high income earners spend much less for every tax dollar saved, than low income earners — 86 cents versus 48 cents respectively. Further, a 65-year study by the Congressional Research Service showed that economic growth was not correlated with changes in the top marginal tax and capital gains rate. In other words, economic growth is largely unaffected by how much tax the wealthy pay. Growth is more likely to spur if lower income earners get a tax cut.

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SirTripAlot said:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

This website references a lot of studies that show the rich save more than the poor:

Do the Rich Save More?

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Which begs the question, if the middle class received more money, would it be spent in the economy or saved?

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How is that even a question?  If the rich save more money, then of course giving the middle class more would lead to more spending.

relic's post further confirms this. 

ballsalsa said:

Given that context, Is it a surprise that africa is run-down and full of nations that have a hard time governing themselves and managing their resources in a positive way for their citizens while china is rapidly expanding it's consumer (middle) class?  Not to me.  Seems like an continuation of policies that have been in place for more than a century.

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