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qman Stranger Registered: 12/06/06 Posts: 34,927 Last seen: 17 hours, 55 minutes |
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Quote: "With corporate debt making up half the GDP" Please explain.
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Tipote petty crook and transvestite Registered: 10/28/11 Posts: 5,410 Loc: UK/France/US Last seen: 11 months, 4 days |
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Quote: Do you put your conservative beginnings down to your parents political beliefs? I feel the same way about caring for others and its relation to my political leanings. I think I was influenced a lot by Star Trek TNG too . To me it just seems rational that blind selfishness only creates more rationale to be selfish, and that seems to be our current world system. It just seems rational to pool resources and coordinate. When I was a younger, my dad was running refugee camps all over the world (for free), we even had an Iranian refugee living with us at one point. I think that definitely brought me up with a sense of connection to the other.. as well as from growing up in more than one country - In the US I was English, in England I was French/American and in France I am English. Quote: This is something I respect a lot about you, Falc, that you review the data and let that inform your positions. How old were you when you switched, if you don't mind me asking? Quote: I think this is common too. I had a similar journey. I even fell into the arrogant dawkins atheism for a while but that didn't last long. Quote: What about the "real world" or college opened your mind to racist arguments? Or was that something you had time for before? Quote: Again, was this because of the influence of your parents? When was the turning point? Or was it a gradual realisation? -------------------- Edited by Tipote (11/21/17 01:08 PM)
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Tipote petty crook and transvestite Registered: 10/28/11 Posts: 5,410 Loc: UK/France/US Last seen: 11 months, 4 days |
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Quote: Are you comparing to a particular time in the past? I would say many people's living standards have fallen - affecting all those base needs of the population. And as you say, those at the top of the pyramid are a bit more complicated.. If the foundation is weak then the pyramid structure is weak. Suicide and depression doesn't seem like a sign of an effective society in meeting those needs. When you have nurses, firemen, policemen etc in the UK having to go to food banks because they can't afford food, I dont think its a sign that those needs are met by society. Quote: I agree with you but I would also say that this is where intersectionality comes in. It's the case that on a class basis, many people - whites and people of colour - are alienated. But white working class can stamp on working class people of colour and ignore the real enemy. Who can blame them when the billionaire-owned media is saturated with messages like.. Quote: I know people who bought houses for £20,000 which are now worth £400,000. People used to buy houses on the wages they received, my generation is completely priced out of the market and will probably never own a home. My father had a house by the time he was 20. Quote: So youre kind of accepting those class inequalities? Surely they will self-perpetuate as they always have? Social mobility shouldn't really be left down to a handful of loopholes. Sure, I could accidentally become a youtube millionaire by showing videos of me opening kinder eggs, or even better - videos of my cat - but on a society-wide scale this seems like an option for a minority. I have some investments in bitcoin, etherum and ripple but its not something I rely on for the future. Quote: I agree fiscal irresponsibility is a serious issue. Our corporate-governments don't give a fuck about fleecing the taxpayer. In the UK, the conservative government is rapidly defunding public services to such extremes that people will ask for privatisation, which only reduces the standard further. Surely the rapidly increasing inflation you envision will fuck up younger generations? If I was ever to get a mortgage, which is doubtful, the interest could be debilitating. --------------------
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Tipote petty crook and transvestite Registered: 10/28/11 Posts: 5,410 Loc: UK/France/US Last seen: 11 months, 4 days |
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Quote: good post --------------------
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relic of a bygone era Registered: 10/14/14 Posts: 5,624 Loc: the right coast |
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(tl;dr at the bottom)
politics was a strange thing in my childhood household...politics were never discussed when i was growing up. we had a largish, lower middle class, catholic family and it was simply not the sort of discussion that was 'proper' for the dinner table or any other time for that matter. something counter intuitive about that was that my dad ALWAYS worked the local polling center for both national and local elections from the time it opened until well after it closed, donating his time. my dad was a rational republican and never voted straight R ticket, but considered individual positions (i only found this out during my late 30's)...he would never discuss how he was going to vote prior to election day but would occasionally discuss his votes the day after polls closed (after i got older, maybe starting when i was around 12 years old and pretty much demanded that he discuss it with me because i hounded him). any discussions we had about politics were had during our fishing trips, while we were away from the rest of the family, and i suspect this was because my mom and dad were on opposite ends of the spectrum at the time...contentious subjects simply weren't discussed in the family setting unless absolutely necessary and politics didn't fit that scenario. i developed my own viewpoints independent of the family because i was a fucking smartypants and thought i knew everything about everything. i was always in gifted programs at school--sometimes being bussed to different schools for special study with other 'gifted' students--and i think this only reinforced the idea that i knew it all...but i was fucking dumb and finally realized that, once i started really maturing in my early 20's. but even then, i my early 20's, i was hardcore as fuck. I fought a lot, beat people to within inches of their lives, was anarchist as fuck but without political underpinnings, and was a ruthless SOB motherfucker...it took another 6-8 years for me to begin softening and realizing that i just didn't know nearly as much as i thought i did. I also began to actually care about other people and stopped fucking people up over any slight, large or small or imagined, and started really giving a fuck about disadvantaged people and whatnot. it was a really strange path that, looking back on it, i now realize that i'm not only lucky to be alive and never spent time in jail or prison, but i can't believe i ended up where and who i am today. god that was a mess. now that you know way more than you ever wanted to about relic... tl;dr: it wasn't my family that formed my political affiliation, it was my stupidity (at first) and my maturity (eventually).
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Tipote petty crook and transvestite Registered: 10/28/11 Posts: 5,410 Loc: UK/France/US Last seen: 11 months, 4 days |
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Thank you for sharing! I enjoyed reading that.
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relic of a bygone era Registered: 10/14/14 Posts: 5,624 Loc: the right coast |
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welcome. it was strange writing it. it brought back a lot of memories...some embarrassing, some joyful (my fishing trips alone with dad ), and some sad. i know it was a mess, sorry.
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qman Stranger Registered: 12/06/06 Posts: 34,927 Last seen: 17 hours, 55 minutes |
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Quote: I came from a highly competitive environment growing up and I thought the rest of the world also did the same thing, I was proven wrong. I came to observe that there were differences between the cultures and ethnic groups, the everyone is the same just didn't make sense anymore as I left my sheltered life. "racist arguments" I call this acknowledging some of the differences and not running away from it for the fear of being labeled a "bigot".. Again, this has nothing to do with "superior" or "inferior" population groups, it's about embracing the diversity instead of being in fear of it.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 Stranger Registered: 03/16/05 Posts: 32,557 Loc: California, US Last seen: 7 months, 7 days |
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Quote: In college. I voted for Bill Clinton the year after I graduated, making me officially liberal (even though George Bush Sr shook my hand at my graduation). -------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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ballsalsa Universally Loathed and Reviled Registered: 03/11/15 Posts: 22,202 Loc: Foreign Lands |
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Quote: somewhat. My dad is super-duper smart, so I assimilated a lot of his worldview. As a young person, i was more inclined to see issues as black and white, especially moral issues. Once I became a man, I started to drag him left with me, and now he's probably more liberal than I am. My mom is mostly apolitical. She got into it pretty seriously in the last election, but ended up screwing herself by registering as "American Independent".
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Kryptos Stranger Registered: 11/01/14 Posts: 12,657 Last seen: 9 minutes |
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Quote: https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/20/ Basically, more companies are borrowing money and using it to directly manipulate share price as opposed to expanding naturally and letting the stock reflect that. Quote: Of course it is a serious issue! I'm not saying it isn't. Yes, there are fewer easy opportunities for young people. Of course it's not a healthy base for society. However, it works. It has for the last generation, it probably will for three more, and I'll probably be dead after that. Heck, some variety of "stomp the little peasants with our mighty gold heel" has existed for pretty much all of human existence. We're still around. Eventually, someone rebels, someone gets lined up against a wall and shot, and the cycle continues with a different foot in the golden boot. Everyone in the country remembers the days of 1776 with...fondness, for lack of accuracy (see what I did there?). 2076 is the same show, different cast. Quote: 1) No, pick any time. We can safely discount everything before the invention of fertilizer, because everyone starved before that. Nowadays, productivity is way up, and I would argue standard of living is also way up. What 50 years ago was an unimaginable luxury (fridge, TV) now exists in literally every household, even if they can't afford the power to run either. If we're talking about buying power, that's a different story, but is unrelated to standard of living. 2) Of course people feed this siege mentality. The reason fear is so effective is that it makes people predictable. I remember in 8th grade, our science teacher explained the logic behind the school shooter safety drills: "Fire spreads towards fuel. Pressure equalizes. We can generalize the likely route. People we can't, people are unpredictable." She was right. The only time that a person is 100% predictable, s when they are running for their lives from danger, whether it is real or perceived. It's like how during wildfires, predator and prey both run from the flames. So, whip people up into a frenzy, give them something to be afraid of, and watch them run in the opposite direction like lemmings off a cliff. 3) Of course, yeah. I'm in the same boat. I'm in my mid 20s, and I'm not planning on ever owning a home. And before someone screams "millennials all kill the market!", well, yeah, it's a bad market. Like coal. Let it die with dignity. It seems like a bad investment not only in terms of raw economic means, but I don't think the value will grow faster than the market, overall. You can still buy some rural shithole for 20k, but then you're limiting yourself to two-bucks-above-minimum-wage, max. Or a 45 minute commute. Speaking of, I'm thinking in about 50 years, we will treat cars as we treat homes now. I'm thinking AI uber, with the average car becoming priced out of the average...2050-ennial salary range. I never put much stock in the whole "housing market reflect the health of the economy" bullshit. I always thought of it as subliminal advertising. 4) Why not? That's how we do most of the time. Corner the market, raise the price. That's economics 101. Bone or ye shall be boned. Changing this basic rule would be unjust to the free market. The thing is, we are living much better than most of human history. We are living to excess. We are living unsustainably. Especially so for us with fancy reliable internets and the ability to complain about a difference in money that is not measured in pennies. If we want to live without class inequalities, we're gonna have to make some fundamental changes to the system. It's natural for someone to rise to where they are, and build themselves a little floor to stand on. The thing is, that floor looks a whole lot like a ceiling from below. 5) Runaway interest fucks everyone. It's a literal logarithmic reset of the monetary system. I've always considered the concept of logarithmic money to be interesting, where for example 10$+10$=19$, but never seriously. I think this is what runaway inflation is. Your money is no longer calculated in denomination, but eventually just in bricks of cash. By weight. Normal inflation is a logarithmic process that prevents stagnation, since 5 cents doesn't buy you a soda anymore. Two thousand bucks in your pocket was a year's wages a century ago, now it's barely enough to feed four people for a month. If what I expect happens, I figure there will be a lost generation. Maybe us, as the young end of millennial. Maybe our kids. We'll do a whole lot of complaining. Either way, life moves on. Ever play a city builder game? It's easy to expand quickly, as long as you maintain a high rate of expansion and acquire new resources. Once you run out of planet, you cannibalize yourself. Once you run out of that, well...time to slow everything down and figure out a new way to live. That takes time. A long time. It's not something we fix in a decade, even. This is something that takes a lot of sacrifice for a lot of people, effectively starting society from scratch. Sometimes, we get a reason for a lot of people to get killed over some stupid war, but the following baby booms add to the problems. Sometimes, we figure out a way to build a better bandage. Maybe a war on drugs, something everyone uses? Maybe a war on an idea, something everyone has? Either way, the problem is a lot more complex than that. I really wish that I had a good solution, but all I have are stopgaps. See: https://www.shroomery.org/forums Edited by Kryptos (11/21/17 02:35 PM)
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qman Stranger Registered: 12/06/06 Posts: 34,927 Last seen: 17 hours, 55 minutes |
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https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/20/
Dam, now up to $8.7 trillion. That's higher than I last remembered. Let the bubbles continue.
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Tipote petty crook and transvestite Registered: 10/28/11 Posts: 5,410 Loc: UK/France/US Last seen: 11 months, 4 days |
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Quote: proven wrong in what way? Quote: Sure, no one disputes differences, the issue is when you generalise (that thing you always tell me off for) to large swathes of the global population. You often mistake poverty for inherent incapability. No one says everyone is exactly the same but it seems to you that those differences are stronger than the similarities between people. Quote: Sure, you don't like to use the words "inferior" or "superior" but you have gone as far as to say that these differences are defined enough to make sweeping judgments based on people's race - that some people are incompatible with Western society, despite the many generations they have been part of Western society. You'll say that its just difference in environment and genetics that makes whites inherently dominant. That does imply a superiority. Especially when we talk internationally about the dominance of colonial Europe over the majority of the globe. --------------------
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Tipote petty crook and transvestite Registered: 10/28/11 Posts: 5,410 Loc: UK/France/US Last seen: 11 months, 4 days |
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Quote: True, there are many advances but if our generation doesn't have enough money to work and live, let alone have kids and support them, then surely that is a problem for society? Cling on to the existance of the fridge if you must but I think the future prospects of people tend to go beyond food refrigeration technology. I am no economist but I'm sure others here would agree that wages have been stagnant for a long time despite everything getting more expensive. (from here) Quote: It doesn't give a complete picture, of course. But its certainly indicative of the issues we have today. If rent was reasonable then it wouldn't be such an issue. In places like Berlin there is a big renting culture. Instead, those lucky enough to be helped by family wealth, can buy property and have that level of security.. everyone else gets to pay extortionate rent for the cupboard under the stairs they live in. There is investment in the UK for luxury builds for the mega rich, and social housing is sold off without being replaced - always fucking the little guy for the benefit of the rich. Social housing is left to degrade to such an extent that it is not fit for human habitation and crimes like the Grenfell fire happen.. and the victims are blamed for not only being precariat class but for being largely people of colour. Capitalism splits up families and communities and makes life about the endless pursuit of money while society fucks over the poorest the most. In the UK, there have been thousands of deaths attributed to government austerity. Landmark study links Tory austerity to 120,000 deaths The level of in-work poverty is shocking. And yet you think suicide is a good sign in society? No wonder our generation are putting off having children completely or at least delay it for a while, even killing themselves. And what does that do for our population? If we don't have a minimum number of children then it affects our entire society. Millennials say no to kids, population 'replacement level' turns negative Quote: So you say bone or be boned and youre surprised why people are killing themselves in such high numbers. Unjust to the free market? Do we really have a truly free market for anything? Not that I'm aware of. Fuck the free market. Yes, we are living to excess, but that assumes that the excess is fairly divided in society, which it isn't. Quote: I agree we need fundamental changes to the system. Is it natural to have such gross inequality though? Quote: And suicide is still a good sign? --------------------
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sprinkles otd president Registered: 10/13/12 Posts: 21,527 Loc: washington state Last seen: 3 years, 3 months |
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what if you are like me and start off radical? what then?
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Tipote petty crook and transvestite Registered: 10/28/11 Posts: 5,410 Loc: UK/France/US Last seen: 11 months, 4 days |
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Quote: I dont think we have identified clear trends. I guess you'll have to tell us. If you've started radical, do you think youve become more or less radical? and if so, why? --------------------
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sprinkles otd president Registered: 10/13/12 Posts: 21,527 Loc: washington state Last seen: 3 years, 3 months |
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I hate everything. I always have and probably will continue.
I dont hate nature though, just everything else. Like people and everything people make and do.
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Kryptos Stranger Registered: 11/01/14 Posts: 12,657 Last seen: 9 minutes |
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Quote: Real wages can go down all they want, standard of living is still up. Again, we are able to communicate without ever seeing each other while taking a crap. This is literally unheard of half a century ago. I know wages are going down and all that, my point is that the poorest of the poor today live like the kings of old. And no, there isn't enough money to go around. Not enough money to have kids and support them. 5000 years ago there wasn't enough fire to go around, and the tigers ate your kids before you got to support them. 500 years ago, not enough food, and 75% of your kids died to disease by age 10. 50 years ago, well, the population was smaller. Too bad condoms were borderline illegal, would've probably slowed some of this shit down... My point is, all of these things are caused by some major systemic issues. Complete reorganization will require a lot of work. Even if we were to simply redistribute the excess, we would still be living in excess. Population stabilizes based on the carrying capacity of the system. If the population exceeds the carrying capacity, the population corrects back down. So, either we put some scientists to work on some GMO-and-solar-flavored expansions to the carrying capacity of the environment, or we get use to a population correction. Parts of the world starve, parts of the world's hearts detonate at age 35, and part just don't have health insurance. Suicide is a symptom of despair caused by that realization in some form, the realization that you and your life is a resource to be used whether you want it to be or not, by powers largely outside your control. Some people can work in the system, some people can't. It's all part of the natural growth and stagnation cycle. There are ways of getting rid of this cycle. The equality idea tries this, but the thing is that when we are equal to each other, everyone feels like they are the one getting boned. A neck-to-neck race may be exciting from the sidelines, but it's terrifyingly grueling from the perspective of the contestant. Everyone would rather just be able to casually glance back and watch the competition struggle to keep up. Heck, let's go back to the OP a little bit more-the whole siege mentality thing. As soon as people are no longer either totally in control or slowly gaining ground, they feel like they are losing. It's why the neo-nazis and alt-right keep popping up everywhere fighting for white people. To them, the slight erosion of an utter domination is too much to bear. Think they're okay living equal to their fellow man? As long as their "equal" has an extra 500sq feet of floor space more than their neighbor... Humans have long evolved to take and not give. Heck, it's wired into our biology. It's why it's easier to get fat than to lose fat. Everyone wants a leg up. So far, capitalism has provided a good way to do that, and I think inflation is a genius way of doing so. It's a way to effectively assign an ever increasing but arbitrary value towards wealth, so that people will keep moving forward and feel like they are getting a leg up without literally tearing off their neighbor's leg and cooking it for dinner. We are reaching our boundaries, filling in the empty spaces. Science extends our boundaries, but science is expensive. Eventually, the cost of science exceeds the effectiveness of the boundary extension, and we choke. Fallen empires. Rome. The Golden Horde. Heck, 17th century Spain. If the population is resilient enough as a whole, we survive a mass extinction event of some sort. If not, we become refugees. If the extinction event is big enough, oops. Edited by Kryptos (11/23/17 11:40 PM)
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koods Ribbit Registered: 05/26/11 Posts: 106,919 Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs Last seen: 6 minutes, 36 seconds |
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Quote: Are they? World wide homicide rates have never been lower in all of human history -------------------- “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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ballsalsa Universally Loathed and Reviled Registered: 03/11/15 Posts: 22,202 Loc: Foreign Lands |
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Quote: now you're satisfied with the historically low homicide rate?
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