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Re: ANTIFA [Re: akira_akuma]
    #24664417 -

akira_akuma said:
Cyrus19 said:
Violence is justified in some cases



1: the people they attack are alot of times innocent or simply MAGA - these are not fascists.

2: no, it's not ok to do any violence to anyone unless they are invoking the breaking of entreaty of natural law, in any element, that is to say, if they are attacking or arrogating you & yours. or abrogating a fascist government- in the US this would be given.

:shrug:



Well I'm not in antifa so I can't really speculate on there orders. Actual fasicists should be taken down no question. The MAGA folks just leave those simple people alone.

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Eminence]
    #24664427 -

My point is that protesters don't necessarily represent the status quo; not that the majority of antifascists disagree with violence.


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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Cyrus19] * 1
    #24664430 -

Ok, you've given your opinion on Antifa and fascists multiple times over the months, but it looks like you don't even know enough to realize who they're mostly attacking. You should really watch some videos of them before you start saying things like "sometimes violence is justified" in this context. Yeah...we all agree, we don't like fascists. That's the fucking point here, that's why people don't like Antifa.


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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Eminence]
    #24664435 -

Eminence said:
Show me a video of Antifa justifiably attacking someone and I'll show you at least 10 where there is no justification.



I'll base my worldview off of my real life experience, rather than quantity of youtube videos.


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Re: ANTIFA [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #24664439 -

shivas.wisdom said:
I'll base my worldview off of my real life experience, rather than quantity of youtube videos.



do you really think anyone will take that irrationality seriously? first you tell me earlier "what you get your news from where? not editorials but firsthand accounts from people?!" and now you're like, "can't trust videos people take in RL, nah gotta be there first hand!"

like anecdotal evidence is suddenly supreme over video evidence. :lol: unbelievable. funny thing is, ma hands and fingers and mind are getting tired. :lmafo:

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #24664448 -

shivas.wisdom said:
Eminence said:
Show me a video of Antifa justifiably attacking someone and I'll show you at least 10 where there is no justification.



I'll base my worldview off of my real life experience, rather than quantity of youtube videos.



Ok, you're one guy. I'm basing this off the hundreds that preach the same shit as you that I've seen.


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Re: ANTIFA [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #24664460 -

shivas.wisdom said:
I don't deny that this mosque doesn't reflect the majority opinion of muslims - but, activists out on the street don't necessarily represent the majority either.

The point is that these various groups do have intersection - they are not mutually exclusive, they overlap - your claim that these "demographics" have nothing in common beyond hate for the white man is paranoid fantasy.



"that these various groups have intersection...overlap"

You're desperate and splitting hairs here, there is no common values or cultural system at work here other than "victimization" at the hands of the white male.

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Cyrus19]
    #24664472 -

Cyrus19 said:
akira_akuma said:
Cyrus19 said:
Violence is justified in some cases



1: the people they attack are alot of times innocent or simply MAGA - these are not fascists.

2: no, it's not ok to do any violence to anyone unless they are invoking the breaking of entreaty of natural law, in any element, that is to say, if they are attacking or arrogating you & yours. or abrogating a fascist government- in the US this would be given.

:shrug:



Well I'm not in antifa so I can't really speculate on there orders. Actual fasicists should be taken down no question. The MAGA folks just leave those simple people alone.



Who are these "Actual fasicists" that you speak of, what fascist behavior do they commit?

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: akira_akuma]
    #24664474 -

akira_akuma said:
first you tell me earlier "what you get your news from where? not editorials but firsthand accounts from people?!"



Actually, I was telling you that 100% of your news is editorials. Unless you're going to suggest that shirtless dude in the duster had firsthand experience of everything he's talking about?


Quote:
and now you're like, "can't trust videos people take in RL, nah gotta be there first hand!"



Not something I claimed, either.

Quote:
like anecdotal evidence is suddenly supreme over video evidence. :lol: unbelievable. funny thing is, ma hands and fingers and mind are getting tired. :lmafo:



My point is that, in the case of judging the tactics and effectiveness of antifascist action, I will rely on my personal experience over the quantity of negative videos.


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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Eminence]
    #24664479 -

Eminence said:
Ok, you've given your opinion on Antifa and fascists multiple times over the months, but it looks like you don't even know enough to realize who they're mostly attacking. You should really watch some videos of them before you start saying things like "sometimes violence is justified" in this context. Yeah...we all agree, we don't like fascists. That's the fucking point here, that's why people don't like Antifa.



Antifa in other countries disrupt actual fascists organizing something I doubt you would do cause its probably to much work for yourself. Also you calling antifa fascist is an attempt at deception fascists are far right antifa are left wing activists. Lets not get confused with the terms or there is no point in discussing the issue with you.

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: qman]
    #24664482 -

qman said:
Cyrus19 said:
akira_akuma said:
Cyrus19 said:
Violence is justified in some cases



1: the people they attack are alot of times innocent or simply MAGA - these are not fascists.

2: no, it's not ok to do any violence to anyone unless they are invoking the breaking of entreaty of natural law, in any element, that is to say, if they are attacking or arrogating you & yours. or abrogating a fascist government- in the US this would be given.

:shrug:



Well I'm not in antifa so I can't really speculate on there orders. Actual fasicists should be taken down no question. The MAGA folks just leave those simple people alone.



Who are these "Actual fasicists" that you speak of, what fascist behavior do they commit?



I dunno Qman why don't you look in the mirror.

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #24664488 -

shivas.wisdom said:
Eminence said:
Show me a video of Antifa justifiably attacking someone and I'll show you at least 10 where there is no justification.



I'll base my worldview off of my real life experience, rather than quantity of youtube videos.



Same all these antifa videos the alt right trots out like its some grand revelation are not the full story.

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Cyrus19]
    #24664491 -

nothing is ever the "full story".

good christ. :facepalm: what the fuck are you, religious? you want the "full story"? do you do phenomenology breh?

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #24664505 -

akira_akuma said:
nothing is ever the "full story".





True but I am sure you know Akira some sources are better than others. You are a man of science right? You likely understand the theory of evolution and don't fall prey to religious fanatics making bad arguments. The alt right are the same a war of lies deception attempts to make fascism mainstream and you have fallen for it.

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #24664509 -

You get closer to the full story by being physically present then from watching "violent antifa attacks peaceful protest" youtube compilations.


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Re: ANTIFA [Re: akira_akuma] * 3
    #24664510 -

Auto-Summary
Nationalism is experiencing a resurgence, but it is not the same as fascism, contrary to recent claims. Nationalism, rooted in Enlightenment principles, emphasizes self-determination and the right of nations to govern themselves. Fascism, however, rejects this notion, asserting the superiority of a single leader and suppressing dissent. The rise of nationalism in Europe and the U.S. is due to perceived failures of multinational organizations, such as the EU and NATO, in addressing domestic issues. While questioning membership in these organizations and advocating for protectionist or anti-immigration policies may seem alarming, they are not inherently fascist. True fascism involves absolute obedience to a dictator, suppression of free speech, and the elimination of elections. The current nationalist movement is about reasserting the nation-state's role, not embracing fascism.

Nationalism Is Rising, Not Fascism!

Quote:
Recently, there have been a number of articles and statements asserting that fascism is rising in Europe, and that Donald Trump is an American example of fascism. This is a misrepresentation of a very real phenomenon.

The nation-state is reasserting itself as the primary vehicle of political life. Multinational institutions like the European Union and multilateral trade treaties are being challenged because they are seen by some as not being in the national interest.

The charge of a rise in fascism comes from a profound misunderstanding of fascism. It is also an attempt to discredit the resurgence of nationalism and to defend the multinational systems that have dominated the West since World War II.

Nationalism is the core of the Enlightenment’s notion of liberal democracy. It asserts that the multinational dynasties that ruled autocratically denied basic human rights. Among these was the right to national self-determination and the right of citizens to decide what was in the national interest.

The Enlightenment feared tyranny and saw the multinational empires dominating Europe as the essence of tyranny. Destroying them meant replacing them with nation-states. The American and French revolutions were both nationalist risings, as were the risings that swept Europe in 1848. Liberal revolutions were by definition nationalist because they were risings against multinational empires.

Fascism differs from nationalism in two profound ways. First, fascists did not consider self-determination a universal right. Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini and Francisco Franco, to mention three obvious fascists, only endorsed nationalism for Germany, Italy and Spain. The rights of other nations to a nation-state of their own was, at best, unclear to the fascists.

In a very real sense, Hitler and Mussolini believed in multinationalism, albeit with other nations submitting to their will. Fascism was an assault on the right of nations to pursue their self-interest, and an elevation of the fascists’ right to pursue it based on an assertion of their nations’ inherent superiority and right to rule.

But the more profound difference was the conception of internal governance. Nationalism accepted that the right to hold power was subject to explicit and periodic selection of the leaders by the people. How this was done varied.

It also requires that opponents of the elected have the right to speak out against them, and to organize parties to challenge them in the future. Most important, it affirms that the people have the right to govern themselves through these mechanisms and that those elected to lead must govern in the people’s name.

Fascism asserts that a Hitler or a Mussolini represents the people but is not answerable to them. The core of fascism is the idea of the dictator, who emerges through his own will. He cannot be challenged without betraying the people.

Therefore, free speech and opposition parties are banned and those who attempt to oppose the regime are treated as criminals. Fascism without the dictator, without the elimination of elections, without suppression of free speech and the right to assemble, isn’t fascism.

Arguing that being part of the European Union is not in the British interest, that NATO has outlived its usefulness, that protectionist policies or anti-immigration policies are desirable is not fascist.

These ideas have no connection to fascism whatsoever. They are far more closely linked to traditional liberal democracy. They represent the reassertion of the foundation of liberal democracy, which is the self-governing nation-state. It is the foundation of the United Nations, whose members are nation-states, and where the right to national self-determination is fundamental.

Liberal democracy does not dictate whether a nation should be a member in a multinational organization, adopt free trade policies or protectionism, or welcome or exclude immigrants. These are decisions to be made by the people - or more precisely, by the representatives they select. The choices may be wise, unwise or even unjust. However, the power to make these choices rests, in a liberal democracy, in the hands of the citizens.

What we are seeing is the rise of the nation-state against the will of multinational organizations and agreements. There are serious questions about membership in the EU, NATO and trade agreements, and equally about the right to control borders. Reasonable people can disagree, and it is the political process of each nation that retains the power to determine shifts in policy. There is no guarantee that the citizenry will be wise, but that cuts both ways and in every direction.

The current rise of nationalism in Europe is the result of European institutions’ failure to function effectively. Eight years after 2008, Europe still has not solved its economic problems. A year after the massive influx of refugees in Europe, there is still no coherent and effective policy to address the issue. Given this, it would be irresponsible for citizens and leaders not to raise questions as to whether they should remain in the EU or follow its dictates.

In the 1950s, the McCarthyites charged anyone they didn’t like with being communists. Today, those who disapprove of the challengers of the current system call them fascists. Now, some of the opponents of the EU or immigration may really be fascists. But the hurdle for being a fascist is quite high.

Fascism is far more than racism, tinkering with the judiciary, or staging a violent demonstration. Real fascism is Nazi Germany’s “leader principle” - which dictated absolute obedience to the Führer, whose authority was understood to be above the law.

We are seeing a return to nationalism in Europe and the United States because it is not clear to many that internationalism, as followed since World War II, benefits them any longer. They may be right or wrong, but to claim that fascism is sweeping Europe and the United States raises the question of whether those who say this understand the principles of fascism or the intimate connection between nationalism and liberal democracy.




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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Cyrus19] * 1
    #24664513 -

Hahaha the alt-right are not the only ones who have a problem with Antifa, how do you not get this? People on ALL SIDES think they're a joke, people on the right are obviously more willing to call them out whenever they're around or mentioned, because the left has associated themselves too much with them and can't stand to denounce their own now :lol:

Even though they do act more like fascists than probably all the people they're attacking, that wasn't what I was saying anyway. I was just saying they're attacking  people who are not even fascist.

Also laughed at your "too much work" comment considering something like 90% of these "activists" aren't even officially employed. I say officially because I don't want to count out the ones who've admitted they're being paid to be shit-stirrers :lol:



--------------------



Edited by Eminence (09/27/17 04:38 PM)

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #24664526 -

shivas.wisdom said:
Actually, I was telling you that 100% of your news is editorials. Unless you're going to suggest that shirtless dude in the duster had firsthand experience of everything he's talking about?



you think people in the white house press corp are needed to take statements down with due deference or something? ethics? what is your retort? because the news i've been posting here has to do with statements of politicians...what the fuck is he missing here from not directly taking those quotes from officials? nothing. so your retort, please, if you may.

(on accounts of ANTIFA, more than enough video evidence exists to justify my beliefs and his -- that's not editorializing, that's putting out his opinion on things he's seen from video evidence, first hand. that's first hand experience enough, or do you think he needs to be there protesting to somehow admit to the validity of the videos? people WERE THERE, THEY TOOK THE VIDEOS AND PUT THEM UP- they say ANTIFA beats the crap out of people; that's journalism too, first hand accounts on the ground. what? should they, in effect, not be taken seriously for their opinions when they were there? should people not take their video evidence as valid, therefore? is only your word valid?


Quote:
Not something I claimed, either.



you insinuated that the videos i was posting was from an irreputable source and said it "wasn't news".

either you are saying the "shirtless dude in the duster" should have "firsthand experience of everything he's talking about", or you aren't....pick one.


Quote:
My point is that, in the case of judging the tactics and effectiveness of antifascist action, I will rely on my personal experience over the quantity of negative videos.



your point is speciously conceived.

Cyrus19 said:
True but I am sure you know Akira some sources are better than others. You are a man of science right? You likely understand the theory of evolution and don't fall prey to religious fanatics making bad arguments. The alt right are the same a war of lies deception attempts to make fascism mainstream and you have fallen for it.



nicely said, for once, but you're wrong. i am not alt-right, you keep presuming that, and you keep being wrong consistently. i am totally independent of any ideology at this time. in fact, i'd say, today, pretty well, i could be a lot of things, but i definitely don't proclaim that any damn government should be under any banner but for the people.

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Cyrus19] * 1
    #24664529 -

Cyrus19 said:
akira_akuma said:
Cyrus19 said:
Violence is justified in some cases



1: the people they attack are alot of times innocent or simply MAGA - these are not fascists.

2: no, it's not ok to do any violence to anyone unless they are invoking the breaking of entreaty of natural law, in any element, that is to say, if they are attacking or arrogating you & yours. or abrogating a fascist government- in the US this would be given.

:shrug:



Well I'm not in antifa so I can't really speculate on there orders. Actual fasicists should be taken down no question. The MAGA folks just leave those simple people alone.



Who are these "Actual fasicists" that you speak of, what fascist behavior do they commit?



I dunno Qman why don't you look in the mirror.



You're funny, now answer the question.

Or could it be that you can't answer the question because you're all hysterical over something that doesn't even exist in the US today? Talk about paranoia.

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: akira_akuma]
    #24664550 -

akira_akuma said:
shivas.wisdom said:
Actually, I was telling you that 100% of your news is editorials. Unless you're going to suggest that shirtless dude in the duster had firsthand experience of everything he's talking about?



that's not editorializing, that's putting out his opinion on things he's seen from video evidence, first hand.



What's an editorial to you, if not that?


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