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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Cinnamon]
    #24464820 -

Body cams would helps as well, mandatory and constant

Put them through civilian courts, trial by jury as well

Free up internal investigations

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Cinnamon] * 2
    #24464827 -

I really don't, though.  Cops are not a positive force in the community...at least not in most of America.  That 50's ideal is long dead.  The idea that cops prevent crime is laughable, too.  Cops don't even really investigate most crimes.  The truth is that most cops write tickets and take police reports that sit in a file and never get read again. 

What we have today is such a corruption of the whole purpose of police that it should be scrapped and reinvented as a force for community service and protection.  In that context, there is no benefit to having cops carry guns and a whole lot of risk to it.


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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Enlil]
    #24464831 -

To be fair, the number does seem to be increasing this year (killed on duty). But after the tumultuousness (word?) of last year, what does anyone expect? A division has been created, and that only lends credence to Enlil's original point: the potential for escalation of violence only increases when cops have guns. We saw last year especially that its bad for civilians, and we're seeing this year its making it worse for cops.


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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Repertoire89]
    #24464832 -

Repertoire89 said:
Body cams would helps as well, mandatory and constant

Put them through civilian courts, trial by jury as well

Free up internal investigations


Bodycams are great, should also have a network of live police bodycams on cable for us to watch :smile:  (half-joking).

civilian courts.. I'm not sure I'm 50/50 here, perhaps allow more room for independent inquiries to review the conclusions of the department and move to civilian courts if there's likelihood the department was inadequate, or was protecting the cop.
Enlil can find a flaw here.

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Cinnamon]
    #24464841 -

How can cops possibly police themselves in the "us vs them" environment we've been fostering for the last 5 decades?


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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Enlil]
    #24464852 -

Bodycams are about as effective as the 'anti gang' surveillance cameras that blanket Chicago's southside.


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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Enlil]
    #24464853 -

Enlil said:
I really don't, though.  Cops are not a positive force in the community...at least not in most of America.  That 50's ideal is long dead.  The idea that cops prevent crime is laughable, too.  Cops don't even really investigate most crimes.  The truth is that most cops write tickets and take police reports that sit in a file and never get read again. 

What we have today is such a corruption of the whole purpose of police that it should be scrapped and reinvented as a force for community service and protection.  In that context, there is no benefit to having cops carry guns and a whole lot of risk to it.


Would you advocate civilian policing? people performing civilian arrests on dealers etc?
I see that getting out of hand but since you're advocating removal of the current policing style and going to what appears to be very close to vigilante policing.

I mean, obviously need police to handle traffic stops and drink driving etc etc, but more localized enforcement by people who can respond immediately to any crime about to be or in progress?

I do see the flaws in it though.

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #24464855 -

They're totally effective at convicting criminals.  Not so effective at prosecuting cops.  It's amazing how unreliable that hardware is whenever a person of color gets shot in the face.  Footage always gets damaged or lost.


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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Cinnamon] * 1
    #24464869 -

Cinnamon said:
Would you advocate civilian policing? people performing civilian arrests on dealers etc?

Why arrest dealers at all?  Why are we incarcerating people for non-violent crime? 

Why do we need cops to enforce traffic laws?  We have a robust tort system in the U.S. to deal with people who are harmed by negligent driving.

I know I'm leaving the station here, but I think you're resting on a whole lot of assumptions that don't really make any more sense than cops carrying guns.


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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Enlil]
    #24464888 -

Enlil said:
Cinnamon said:
Would you advocate civilian policing? people performing civilian arrests on dealers etc?

Why arrest dealers at all?  Why are we incarcerating people for non-violent crime? 

Why do we need cops to enforce traffic laws?  We have a robust tort system in the U.S. to deal with people who are harmed by negligent driving.

I know I'm leaving the station here, but I think you're resting on a whole lot of assumptions that don't really make any more sense than cops carrying guns.


Fair point about dealers, Freudian slip there.

So really a civilian vigilante system has potential, in hostage situations/bank robberies/mass casualty events we have teams for that.
In general crime, assaults, home invasion, burglary etc can be handled by people and the formalities done by courts or whatever 'mild' community police force that exists to deal with investigative process.

BUT as we are now, I'd opt for better training.

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Cinnamon] * 1
    #24464893 -

I'm all for better training, but when it comes to firearms, there are plenty of non/less lethal methods that cops can employ.  If that means more cops die, then that's just a bonus.  I really can't see a downside to it.


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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Enlil]
    #24464902 -

Enlil said:
I'm all for better training, but when it comes to firearms, there are plenty of non/less lethal methods that cops can employ.  If that means more cops die, then that's just a bonus.  I really can't see a downside to it.


Hnnng got me right in the patriotic nerve.

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Cinnamon]
    #24464912 -

Things are different in NZ, of course.  Kiwis are exceedingly violent people, mostly because they haven't yet learned how to season their food.  Guns might be necessary to keep the rabble at bay.  In America, we are a gentle, peace-loving folk who just need to hug our way through any differences we might have.


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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Enlil]
    #24464946 -

Enlil said:
Things are different in NZ, of course.  Kiwis are exceedingly violent people, mostly because they haven't yet learned how to season their food.  Guns might be necessary to keep the rabble at bay.  In America, we are a gentle, peace-loving folk who just need to hug our way through any differences we might have.


*Literally dies*

We do have the second highest rate of domestic violence according to OECD/UN Womens report
Right behind the women hating Finns, but honestly they're just doing it to stay warm.

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Cinnamon]
    #24464974 -

I doubt those statistics are accurate, it probably reflects womens freedom to report domestic violence more than anything. In much of the world they have no recourse whatsoever, or only the facade of one

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Enlil]
    #24465538 -

Enlil said:
If that means more cops die, then that's just a bonus.  I really can't see a downside to it.


..Seriously? Can't believe how sick some people are on this site. I know you're probably used to hearing the same thing said about people in your line of work, but really? Just a few weeks ago a cop was shot in the face by some dude just because he pulled him over for a simple traffic violation. The cop was known and liked by a lot of people around the area for his charity work. People only talk about cops either when one does some stupid shit to get himself into trouble, or when some other idiot gets himself shot by also doing something stupid. There are way more cops that are not shooting at people whether it was justified or not, but now you have people thinking they're either gonna get shot for sport when they get pulled over or they feel like they should pull the trigger first because of the one sided portrayal of them all over the news.


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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Eminence]
    #24465556 -

Yup.  It sucks for them.  Still, there are other lines of work.


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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Enlil]
    #24466820 -

Dude come on, they're people who are for the most part trying to protect their communities. Whether you see it as that way or not, have some decency.


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Re: ANTIFA [Re: Repertoire89]
    #24466840 -

Repertoire89 said:
I doubt those statistics are accurate, it probably reflects womens freedom to report domestic violence more than anything. In much of the world they have no recourse whatsoever, or only the facade of one


Probably not, it's definitely not the best way to gather statistics.
but there really is a shocking rate of domestic violence in either case.

We even made it illegal to spank your kids lol

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Re: ANTIFA [Re: schwarg]
    #24467147 -

schwarg said:
Dude come on, they're people who are for the most part trying to protect their communities. Whether you see it as that way or not, have some decency.


I have some, but I recognize the reality that a lot of cops...possibly the majority...abuse their power instead of serving the community.


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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